Team Comp

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Cakedaddy
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Post by Cakedaddy »

Starting at bottom. What's a good combo down below.

Someone that can deal with a blitz/alistar combo. An Ashe, Soroka. A darias/Jayce.

So far, our AD carries are:

Ashe
Trynd
Fiora
Yi

Supports are:

Do we have good supports? Naut is a good tank, but is he support? We have supports that we've played (Soraka, the gay one, etc), but we aren't good with any yet.

Who should be at bottom? I think filling in the other spots will be easier than figuring out our bottom combo.
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Post by Leisher »

I believe we can find a team comp that works for us, but we'll still hit lane combos that beat it. Thus, we need to be able to react and change what we're doing. We rarely ever swap lanes, but I see the pros do it a lot.

I think the thing we need to remember is that it isn't failure to swap lanes. It doesn't mean you suck. We're swapping lanes because your character probably doesn't match up well against whomever you're facing.

You forgot a few carries:
Pantheon
Caitlyn
Miss Fortune
Xin Zhao (who is getting reworked soon)
Twitch
Varus (just got buffed a bit)
Tristana
Draven
Sivir
Vayne

That being said, how many of our available AD Carries do you see the pros playing? Not too many. In fact, I'd say the most common characters selected for that role are Corki and Graves.

Vayne, Tristana, Miss Fortune, and Ashe are all ones that are considered viable by the pros (based on the few things I've seen.) I notice the pros tend to avoid melee AD carries, which makes sense if you're trying to keep your damage dealer alive, and thus, off the front lines.

As for team comp over all, maybe we need to base it on the following rules:
1. The AD Carry must be ranged. (SR only...)
2. We need as many aoe and stun abilities as we can get.
3. Mid is AP.
4. Bot needs to be AD Carry and Support.
5. Support must support the AD Carry above all else.
6. Top must be a really good harassing character that is designed to kill AD Carries or a character with a ton of aoe and/or stuns.
7. Jungler needs to be a tank with aoe and/or stuns.

I've covered #1. #2 is something Gordo has said forever, and when we've built teams with it, we've rolled. #3 is meta.

#4 is tricky. Who will play support? I spent a long time playing the engineer in Team Fortress, so I know what it takes, and how there's no glory there. You're essentially the healer in UO. Currently, we have nobody who really plays support characters. Thing is, it doesn't have to be Janna, Taric, Soraka, Kayle, etc. It can be Alistar or Nautilus or another tank. The support is there to heal the AD and/or defend him. They also help in taking down opponents via stuns.

So who wants to play support? Do we take turns in various roles or do we stick with roles so we get really good at them? This is probably the biggest decision we need to make. It also carries some other concerns as different roles mean different characters, runes, masteries, etc. Who is IP heavy so they can go buy support characters and the runes to play them?

#5 is obvious. Watch any pro game.

#6 I found really interesting. This person isn't a tank, isn't an AD carry, isn't full AP, but a mix of everything. For example, Irelia or Singed. This might be a lane we should do more research on.

#7 makes so much sense. You have your tank fighting out of the jungle as they usually have lots of stuns and/or aoe, which is what you need for ganks.

Here are some other little tidbits I've picked up recently:
1. Don't kill turrets too fast. One video I saw had the guy saying "I don't kill turrets until 12 minutes because you're typically not ready until then for the team laning phase to begin."
2. As an AD carry, some abilities, by late game, actually do less damage than your auto attacks. I found that really interesting.
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Post by Leisher »

Some interesting links on team comp:

Team comp metas from tournaments.

TT team comps.

This is interesting. Not sure if that's one of the tools mentioned in the second post of my first link here...?
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Post by GORDON »

Leisher wrote:#7 makes so much sense. You have your tank fighting out of the jungle as they usually have lots of stuns and/or aoe, which is what you need for ganks.
Ever see a jungling Rammus? Not sure if I have. He has a stun, and a taunt, and with his rollie ability he can come out of the jungle and stun for a gank, fast.
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Post by Leisher »

We've seen jungling Rammus a lot, just not lately.
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Post by GORDON »

Everyone needs to read this, in order to get your heads starting to wrap around these strategy concepts.
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Post by GORDON »

And now I fully understand the reasoning behind the all-AP team composition.
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Post by GORDON »

We might try this, as it doesn't seem to depend on team comp:
Not bad.. but you're missing the team comp that beats all of those =/
**Asian Lane Removal: *(for more info on this, just watch Azubu Blaze in the MLG games from Aug 3-5.

They curbstomped TSM and CRS.

Basically, the goal is to end the laning phase by 3-5 mins in and stop the enemy from farming. From there, they alternate from lane to lane, pushing down each one, till you're forced back into your base.

At that point, the gold difference is between 8,000-20,000... and it only being 20-30 mins into the game.. the team that was "pushed back" has no where near any amount of good items completed.. while the other one that was taking towers, has 3 or more fully made items each.

Basically, it wont matter what your team comp is.. the other team will simply beat you, due to the gold difference in items.

Again, I refer to the MLG series that happened over the weekend.
TSM lost 0/6 *(meaning they couldn't win a single game out of the 6 that were played against Azubu.
Curse only played Azubu 3 times.. but managed to win ONCE!
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Post by Leisher »

Looks like Azubu's wins were based on getting early kills and playing uber aggressive. I would think that could be easily countered?
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Post by GORDON »

Leisher wrote:Looks like Azubu's wins were based on getting early kills and playing uber aggressive. I would think that could be easily countered?

I've often wondered what would happen if, at level 4-5, we all just stopped laning and instead wolfpacked, hitting turrets. Spend 20 seconds in one lane, then just leave and go somewhere else before they group up to counter. They either stay in lane killing minions while losing turrets, or they try to counter our pushes... which means they aren't farming minions and fall behind.

Sounds like what the above plan was saying.




Edited By GORDON on 1345244552
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Post by Cakedaddy »

It SEEMS easy to counter, but we never do. Think of any TT game where the enemies never lane, just gank, and we continue to try to lane, and get ganked. Our early/mid game push is WAY better than theirs. But then, when they turn it on, they just roll through us and win with a HUGE kill advantage.
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Post by Cakedaddy »

Traveling that early we have to make SURE we are effective. They are still laning and getting more xp/gold as a team being that we are splitting everything 5 ways.
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Post by Stranger »

Last night i bought all normal support champs so i will have a good selection to choose from depending on our team comp.

I now have the following supports:

Alistar
Blitzcrank
Janna
Leona
Nautilus
Nunu
Sona
Soraka
Taric
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Post by GORDON »

I hate playing against Nunu.
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Post by Leisher »

Friday night Stranger played a pretty damn good Alistar. I look forward to seeing what the rest of those support champs can do.

I feel like I'm slowly getting the hang of Vayne. I'm trying to also focus on my positioning more so I don't end up dead as often.
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Post by GORDON »

Positioning with Vayne... I guess you need to just figure out when they really decide to engage the tanks, then Flash in and stat laying waste. They can still retarget to you, but we do what we must.
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Post by Leisher »

Some deaths I write off as unavoidable, such as full team ganks when I'm split pushing. Sometimes you get ganked, and sometimes you get caught. It happens to all of us, and to think anyone could go through a game without deaths is silly.

It's the ones in the laning phase and team fights I want to minimize. Laning is about wards, sticking close to my support, and communicating.

Team fights...yeah, I want to continue to try and stay back. I was purposely trying to not be on the front lines, which I have a habit of doing. Hopefully, with our damage dealers being more aware of sticking towards the back, we can make other teams try to dive for us, and then you tanks can stun/flip them.
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Post by Stranger »

as Alistar i basically made it my job in the team fights to disrupt their front lines and let our damage dealers to come in and do their jobs. Then as the team fight progressed i would only attack and peel off those attackers that went after our AD or AP.

Now that will work all fine and dandy when im playing with him cause he is so tanky. But if for some reason im playing with Sona, Soraka, or Janna then thats not gonna work cause i'll have to be in the back of the line as i would be so squishy. So then i think we would need a tankier jungle in that case.
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Post by GORDON »

Whenever I play against a good Soraka, she is always behind the pack and nearly unhittable.
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Post by Cakedaddy »

I feel like I'm finally getting the hang of Veigar. Two high kill/low death games last night with lots of assists in both. I'm getting very used to flash now as well. ALMOST second nature now. When things are REALLY harry, I mess it up still. I find that I'm using my exhaust MUCH less often now too. But that's probably because I'm so far back, dropping my spells then falling back. Never up close enough to drop exhaust. I might change that spell to something else. In the last few games, it's been more of an after thought than anything else.

Leisher. Keep making sure you are behind your team. Last night, there was one push where we were all the way into their inhib turret. I saw one of us three pulling back and followed. You kept going vocalizing your wonder of where we were going. To me, that was one of those times where we had gotten a lot out of the push and to keep going would just be greedy. One person fell back and I followed. Yes, we could have vocalized it. But at the same time, sometimes we all just have to recognize a situation and react because voice is slow and you have to act now. So two things happened there. Stranger didn't vocalize that he was falling back (he was first to), and neither did I. You didn't recognize that your support was falling back and fall back with them. Whether we were making the right call or not was irrelevant at that point. You had no support, you must fall back. That's something I've been VERY attentive to as Veigar. Last few games I've been making it WAY harder for them to dash forward and burst me down. I'm more aware of our flank and making sure I'm not in a position where they can jump out of bushes and get me. Etc. It's really been working out. Or, the other teams just didn't care about me and weren't trying to get me. But point is, as our carry, you have to have a 'stay alive' mentality. Yes, you need to kill, kill, kill. But more importantly, stay alive. So, yell at us for not talking, but make sure you read your support's movements and make sure you stay in a safe position. FYI. Not scolding, or anything. That was just one recent time where there were multiple fuck-ups that we all committed. Moral of the story. Stay alive, no matter what occurs.
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