Watchmen (HBO series)

[GORDON]

So, ok. Story takes place in 2019, in the COMIC BOOK timeline. There was an "alien" squid, not a Dr. Manhattan turning on humanity, like in the movie.

So anyway, I'm one episode in, and if they're taking the story where I think they are, I don't like it. I know there are some seriously racist yokels out there. There may even be more of them than I think. And I know sometimes they have their little KKK circlejerks, and they manage to get ten of them together in front of the press for a rally. But I do not believe there are these massive cabals of highly-placed racists out there, starting wars.

The "Sum of All Fears" movie did this shit. Changed Clancy's book from islamic terrorists, to European White Supremacists, nuking American cities. I don't buy it, and I may not be able to get into this show if I'm rolling my eyes at the premise, nonstop.

I'll hit the second episode soon, see what's up. I'm a few behind.

[Vince]

So, ok. Story takes place in 2019, in the COMIC BOOK timeline. There was an "alien" squid, not a Dr. Manhattan turning on humanity, like in the movie.

That was from the comics. They changed that in the movie. The change kind of bothered me. The squid was created because Veidt understood that the different nations would drop their feuding to unite against a common external enemy. While I get wanting to change it to remove a bit of the cartoonish nature of that part of the plot, it felt like they lost a lot of that insight into human nature that was in the comics.

[GORDON]

Just watched Ep 4.

1. GOD DAMN this show is weird.

2. And may be brilliantly creative.

3. The story is getting deeper than "lol white supremicists," so I've been able to begin to enjoy it.

[TheCatt]

I guess now we know who watches the Watchmen...

[GORDON]

Damn the man.

[Cakedaddy]

Just finished the series and planned on posting about it including a comment "Gordon won't like it because of the race SJW stuff"!


I thought it was awesome. I REALLY liked the movie too. I wondered how much was changed from the original source material as well. How many characters were changed? Over all, the Watchmen universe is DARK, so extreme racism, etc, didn't seem out of place or to be preaching a message. And because I do believe racism exists and that black people had it rough and white supremacists are idiots, I was able to buy everything presented, even though all aspects of it were turned up a few notches to fit the dark nature of the Watchmen universe. I recommend it and hope it gets another season.

[GORDON]

I never said racism didn't exist, it's apparent if you travel to most Asian countries. I said white supremacy, as a high-level and organized cabal, didn't exist.

[Leisher]

I wondered how much was changed from the original source material as well.

For the movie, not a ton. Snyder did his best to stick to the source material. Although the end crisis was completely changed because what was in the books couldn't be translated to the screen.

For the show, no books exist to cover it, so...

[Cakedaddy]

I didn't say you didn't think racism exists. Sorry if what I said seemed to imply that. I was just saying because I believe it does, I could buy it in the movie.

However, your new statement does seem to imply you don't think we have it here? Since you specifically name Asian countries instead of just leaving location out of it.

[GORDON]

Racism exists here, but I think that compared to other countries it isn't as prevalent.

Take any young man from any country on this planet, put him in a Marine uniform, place him outside the oval office guarding the most powerful man on the planet, and no one will bat an eye.

Then go to China looking Japanese.

[Leisher]

Racism exists here, but I think that compared to other countries it isn't as prevalent.

Take any young man from any country on this planet, put him in a Marine uniform, place him outside the oval office guarding the most powerful man on the planet, and no one will bat an eye.

Then go to China looking Japanese.

None of this is wrong.

[Cakedaddy]

That seems like a really weird, and very specific metric.

Take that same marine and have him apply for a CEO position at a fortune 500 company.

[Leisher]

Take that same marine and have him apply for a CEO position at a fortune 500 company.

Is he or she qualified?

[Cakedaddy]

Probably not. Because he/she and her ancestors have been kept down for so long.

But seriously though. You think only 3 of the fortune 500 companies have a black CEO because they haven't found any qualified ones? And if so, why is there such a shortage of qualified black CEOs?

[Leisher]

You think only 3 of the fortune 500 companies have a black CEO because they haven't found any qualified ones?

No.

And if so, why is there such a shortage of qualified black CEOs?

I can tell there's a lot more reasons for it than racism. Racism is absolutely a factor, but not in all cases. Suggesting so is, in itself, racism.

Even when it's not actual racism, there is still some racism at play. People, of ALL races, tend to want to be surrounded by people who look like them. So that's a barrier for entry for black people because white people were already there. It can also explain why women and Hispanics can move in faster because they are there already or look far more similar to the established white folks. Asians get in for business purposes, breaking Asian markets, and having a more familiar skin tone. Hispanics also get advantages for market reasons.

So the skin tone thing and not having a market that's desirable to break into are a big part of why they're not breaking into those circles.

There are also cultural differences in every community, but ones that are more limiting in the black community. Did you never see Dave Chappelle's "keeping it real" skit? Most of Chris Rock's standup from the late 90s? Or even listen to Bill Cosby before it was discovered he was a rapist? How about Morgan Freeman on CNN when it was suggested to him that being black holds people back and he said, and I quote, "Bullshit." That Freeman one really sits with me because I think about what it must be like to have all of the community and political leaders that look like you constantly tell you how other people are holding you down. How defeated must you feel all the time or helpless that you can never climb the ranks through hard work? That sucks.

P.S. I wasn't suggesting racism doesn't exist. It exists everywhere. What I'm tired is constantly hearing about how it's a U.S. or white people exclusive trait. That's complete and utter bullshit.

[Cakedaddy]

Even when it's not actual racism, there is still some racism at play. People, of ALL races, tend to want to be surrounded by people who look like them. So that's a barrier for entry for black people because white people were already there. It can also explain why women and Hispanics can move in faster because they are there already or look far more similar to the established white folks. Asians get in for business purposes, breaking Asian markets, and having a more familiar skin tone. Hispanics also get advantages for market reasons.

So you see this as an esthetics thing and not racism? "It's not that they are black, it's just because they aren't white"

I think about what it must be like to have all of the community and political leaders that look like you constantly tell you how other people are holding you down. How defeated must you feel all the time or helpless that you can never climb the ranks through hard work?

Agreed that this isn't healthy. But, to some degree, it's true (That they are held back). I think Morgan, Cosby, etc are saying "You can get past it", not that it doesn't exist. Rather than say "Things didn't work out, but it wasn't your fault", they are saying "It didn't work out, but you can overcome". At least that's my interpretation. If they actually believe there is nothing holding the black man back, I think they're out of touch.

P.S. I wasn't suggesting racism doesn't exist. It exists everywhere. What I'm tired is constantly hearing about how it's a U.S. or white people exclusive trait. That's complete and utter bullshit.

Agreed. But I think "You do it too" is as unhealthy as giving people an out with "They are holding you down". The whole "It's becoming harder to be a white man in America" just makes people sound stupid. There is no doubt in my mind that we (our generation of white men) still have the advantage in America. Sure, we are losing some of it. But just because you don't have ALL of the advantages (as we did in the past) won't make me feel sorry for you. But I'm also not saying we should lose rights because we are white men. That's racist/sexist. I'm capable of admitting that I've had an advantage because of past (fairly recent racist policies) that gave me those advantages. Are things different from what they were 50 years ago? Tremendously. Has all of that oppression been filtered out of the system? Not by a long shot. Can you measure the amount of advantage I have to determine what I would owe those held back? Not in a million years. Well, maybe in a million years, but then it would be irrelevant.

Have and are black people held back? Yup. More than white people? Yup, but the scales are balancing and there are plenty of instances where white people are held back for being white. Do I believe in white privilege? Absolutely. My dad grew up during a time when black people couldn't use the same restroom as a white. I have no doubt that he had HUGE advantages. And some of that prosperity was passed on to me. And some was passed on to my son. Can anyone measure it to say how much I owe someone else? Nope. But as long as there are black people saying white people owe them something, there will be white people denying that the past has any bearing on today and that they are the ones being held back. It just perpetuates racism. There are also plenty of white people that have 'squandered' the advantage we once held and don't owe anyone anything. But it's not the black man's fault. Any white man that blames the black man for their disparity can't take responsibility for their own actions.

[Leisher]

You're derailing the thread. I've moved the discussion here.

[GORDON]

My stance remains. Racism exists, but 4 or 5 local yokels getting together for their scattered KKK meetings that double as PBR and fried chicken bbqs, it doesn't exist as a high-level entity.

Maybe biker gangs. I've seen them on TV. Are they racist? But they still don't consist of billionaires and Senators and stuff, building Intrinsic Field Generators to make themselves gods because WHITE POWER.

[TheCatt]

There will be no Season 2

[Cakedaddy]

Well, fuck you then, HBO. Maybe you can wrap it up with a bullshit "These ones lived, these ones died, now can you shut up about it" movie 15 years from now like you did Deadwood.