OK..... lots to mention. In no particular order:
- DID NOT like the Azog subplot that was added. If memory serves, an orc by that name did exist in the appendices but he actually did die at Moria... having the company hunted from the moment they leave the Shire bugs me. Nothing like that remotely existed in the book, and to me, who has read the book to his son twice in the last year, the change is jarring.
- Riddles in the Dark: in the book, Bilbo says, "Time... give me time!" and answers the riddle by accident. I don't see why they needed to change that.
- I was amused by how Gandalf is made aware of Saruman's presence when his back is turned, and Galdalf makes a face that screams, "Oh no, not THIS douche..." before he turns around and smiles at Saruman. Sort of changes my perception of their relationship in Fellowship, but this version of it seems a lot more like how I remembered, with Gandalf actually being the least important person in that room. Also, the mention of the Istari was sort of neat. Nothing in the LOTR movies touches on the fact that the wizards are pretty much angels.
- Should have beheaded the Goblin King.
- Didn't like how the dwarves straight-up assaulted the troll camp, instead of blundering in and getting captured one by one.
- They had Thorin be a bit more of a dick toward Bilbo than in the book, but I think I can accept this as sort of a character-arc thing. I do think they missed an opportunity after the eagle escape for Thorin to put himself in Bilbo's service, since that would have been a callback to the beginning of the film when every dwarf except Thorin did so. And he did in the book, so JRRT knew what was up.
- Speaking of the eagles, I was hoping we would get their conversation with Galdalf in the eyrie, but I guess not. Their motivations and reasons remain a mystery.
- Also not thrilled with the moth always being the messenger for calling the eagles.
- I liked how they fleshed out the "the mercy of Bilbo may change the world" scene from Fellowhip. I thought that sequence was well done, especially since in the book Bilbo made no such act of "mercy," he was just trying to escape the mountain 100%.
- Didn't really care for the sprawling orc city with the MASSIVE caverns and square miles of forest-worth of timber making bridges everywhere. I kept wondering where all the wood came from.
- Radagast.... Radagast. On the one hand, his hair and face was caked with actual, literal shit. On the other, I think I can live with that... for both his natural eccentricities, and his "love of the forest mushrooms." Saruman always putting people down for their love of mind-altering substances... I liked how Radagast was half LSD-trippy, but when he needed to be, in Gol Dolgur, his was still a badass wizard. So ok. Plus, he is a Timelord, and that goes a long way.
- Did not like the way they got to the "hidden valley," it didn't seem that strange in the book, but I guess, thinking about the actual wording, it could have been something as magically weird as a rock crevice with a chameleon circuit. If I recall, there was some mention somewhere in the books that Galadriel and Elrond laid down some magic that made Lorien and Rivendell hidden from Sauron's view, so ok.
- Did not like how the orc hunters were chasing Radagast, and he kept leading them near the hiding company, and theorcs and wargs were all around them... then in the next moment, the orcs realize where the dwarves are and they start the chase from a mile away over the ridge of hills. What? A moment ago they were 40 feet away.
- Did not like their stay in Rivendell... in the book they are sung into the valley by the elves and stayed for weeks, and got refreshed, and general had a much-needed respite. Here, it is anger and suspicion and sneaking out when no one is looking. I guess they are really playing up elf/dwarf animosity for a big payoff at the Battle of the Five Armies, but... I don't know. I think it takes something away from Thorin to make him seem so bitter and petty.
- Liked how they showed how Thorin got the name Oakenshield.
- From the blurry glimpses and hints we got of the dragon, I think I will be happy with the final reveal. I remember there were some wacky design ideas from when Del Toro was running the project that I didn't like.
- If they skip Bilbo's conversation with the dragon the way they skipped dialogue with the eagles, I will be fucking pissed. They already gave some of Bilbo's spouting of titles for the dragon to one of the dwarves, so they better not be doing that.
- DID like the look on the Derek Smalls dwarf when Bilbo was trying to duck out and says, "You guys don't have a home, so you don't know what it is like to be homesick."
- Did not like the fact they had Bilbo trying to duck out.
++++++
So, I guess this means the next film will be Mirkwood, and I am guessing the White Council assault on the Necromancer... up to... if I had my guess... the reveal of Laketown. Galdalf needs to be done with that business to pop up with the elf/human army besieging the Mountain. So, if half the movie is their tribulations in Mirkwood, that means that half way through Bilbo has to fight the spiders and starts to realize his self worth, so.... I SUPPOSE him trying to duck out of the cave and go home will show his change over 3 different movies, with his "turning point" happening in the middle of movie 2. This leaves him in movie 3 with enough bravery to go down the tunnel all alone, twice, to confront Smaug. ok. SO THEY BETTER FUCKING DO IT THAT WAY SO THIS SHIT MAKES SENSE.
Also, do you suppose the big Azog/Thorin fight will happen in the Bot5A? Will Azog take command of the now leaderless Misty Mountain orcs, leading them to Erebor? Do you suppose they will kill each other, which is what leaves Thorin mortally wounded?
The Hobbit - Movie/book spoiler thread - *spoiler thread*
Good movie. Too long, though, although other than trimming the traveling a bit I don't think I'd want it too much shorter. I like that they are including more songs this time around.
What is it about Middle Earth that makes every race except the hobbits determined to build everything over the deepest chasms or cliffs they can find? The outside shots don't hint at any shortage of flat land. Maybe something about how magic works in this world gives one a bit more strength based on how much open air there is under their feet?
I've decided that absurd near misses and ridiculous coincidences in this series no longer bother me. Cause and effect just work a little different in Middle Earth. When Ilúvatar sang the world, he made sure to make it excitingly cinematic.
What is it about Middle Earth that makes every race except the hobbits determined to build everything over the deepest chasms or cliffs they can find? The outside shots don't hint at any shortage of flat land. Maybe something about how magic works in this world gives one a bit more strength based on how much open air there is under their feet?
I've decided that absurd near misses and ridiculous coincidences in this series no longer bother me. Cause and effect just work a little different in Middle Earth. When Ilúvatar sang the world, he made sure to make it excitingly cinematic.
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thibodeaux
- Posts: 8056
- Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 7:32 pm
Indeed. Not really thrilled with what they've done with this screenplay.
As for Azog: yeah, in the appendices to LotR, we learn that Azog was killed by Dain (Thorin's cousin) at the Battle of Dimrill Dale, which was part of the Dwarf/Goblin war sparked by the orcs decapitating Thror (and dishonoring his body) when he went alone to Moria.
And Thrain wasn't lost in that battle, he was lost later when he went alone on a journey and wound up in the Necromancer's dungeon, where he was found by Gandalf...BEFORE the events of the Hobbit; that's how Gandalf got the map and key.
As for Azog: yeah, in the appendices to LotR, we learn that Azog was killed by Dain (Thorin's cousin) at the Battle of Dimrill Dale, which was part of the Dwarf/Goblin war sparked by the orcs decapitating Thror (and dishonoring his body) when he went alone to Moria.
And Thrain wasn't lost in that battle, he was lost later when he went alone on a journey and wound up in the Necromancer's dungeon, where he was found by Gandalf...BEFORE the events of the Hobbit; that's how Gandalf got the map and key.
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thibodeaux
- Posts: 8056
- Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 7:32 pm
Right now, my daughter is watching the old 70s Rankin-Bass cartoon version. It's astonishingly faithful to the book; pretty much the only thing left out was Beorn, and nothing added. Even the dialog is pretty close. AND there's lots of songs.
Now, they totally fucked up the wood elves, yeah. And the orcs and gollum look pretty ridiculous. But dang...they didn't think they were better writers than Tolkien.
Now, they totally fucked up the wood elves, yeah. And the orcs and gollum look pretty ridiculous. But dang...they didn't think they were better writers than Tolkien.
Saw this flick. The pursuit by the orcs seems to serve the purpose of driving the company during the first flick. Otherwise, there's not a hell of a lot pushing them along. I'm willing to look past Radagast's rabbits because ... shit, if wizards can talk to insects can talk to eagles, I'll say rabbits can pull sleds.
Oh my Jesus fucking Christ, the pacing was slow. I get the feeling all three of the movies could be condensed down to a couple 2-hour features.
How the hell does Christopher Lee's character command the authority he apparently does? The other three bigwigs in Rivendell (Elron, Galadriel, Gandalf) all seem to think he's a prick, but they put up with his dismissal of Gandalf's theories about the Necromancer because ... he's the White or something. Is it only dwarves and hobbits that have the magical ability to tell a wizard he's full of shit?
The goblin king was beyond stupid. The pale orc looks like a dude who'd be in charge. The goblin king looked like the fucking chef. Also, were the rock-chucking rock giants in the book?
More thoughts later, possibly.
Oh my Jesus fucking Christ, the pacing was slow. I get the feeling all three of the movies could be condensed down to a couple 2-hour features.
How the hell does Christopher Lee's character command the authority he apparently does? The other three bigwigs in Rivendell (Elron, Galadriel, Gandalf) all seem to think he's a prick, but they put up with his dismissal of Gandalf's theories about the Necromancer because ... he's the White or something. Is it only dwarves and hobbits that have the magical ability to tell a wizard he's full of shit?
The goblin king was beyond stupid. The pale orc looks like a dude who'd be in charge. The goblin king looked like the fucking chef. Also, were the rock-chucking rock giants in the book?
More thoughts later, possibly.
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
If I recall correctly...Malcolm wrote:How the hell does Christopher Lee's character command the authority he apparently does? The other three bigwigs in Rivendell (Elron, Galadriel, Gandalf) all seem to think he's a prick, but they put up with his dismissal of Gandalf's theories about the Necromancer because ... he's the White or something. Is it only dwarves and hobbits that have the magical ability to tell a wizard he's full of shit?
Gandalf and Saruman are pretty much angels from heaven, and GOD said Saruman was boss. That's it.
I think Elrond and Galadriel being in the "White Counsel" is pretty much a courtesy, since they have been around for so long and have done so much huge shit, but they are as nothing compared to the Istari.
It is interesting to note that, IIRC, in The Hobbit timeframe Saruman was already being corrupted by the Palintir, thus his shitting on everything Galdalf is trying to do with countering Sauron.
Thib can correct me if I am wrong, he has read them more recently than I.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
Rock giants were mentioned in exactly two sentences, and it was to the effect of, "We need to get out of this storm, we don't want to be mistaken for footballs since the rock giants are out playing catch." A lot of people think it was all intended to just be a metaphor for thunder.Malcolm wrote:Also, were the rock-chucking rock giants in the book?
No, nothing like the movie rock giant even happens in the book.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
GORDON wrote:Gandalf and Saruman are pretty much angels from heaven, and GOD said Saruman was boss. That's it.
That's enough to shut Gandalf up? Even after he goes behind his back to organize the company, runs interference to let the dwarves sneak out, and pulls a burglar out of his ass based on his interaction with that particular hobbit as a young'un? He'll do all that, but telling the White, "You know, you're being a completely ignorant ass," is a step too far? The dude that believes our destiny is our own to make isn't willing to call an obvious bluff?
Edited By Malcolm on 1356382505
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
AND, Gandalf was supposed to be The White to begin with, but something happened thousands of years ago when they first showed up and i can't rememebr the details.
Cyran the Shipwright may factor into it.
Maybe that's where he got his ring.
Don't remember.
But in this story, Gandalf did not ask permission for all he did, he merely set it all into motion and asked forgiveness when he was caught. Just easier that way.
Cyran the Shipwright may factor into it.
Maybe that's where he got his ring.
Don't remember.
But in this story, Gandalf did not ask permission for all he did, he merely set it all into motion and asked forgiveness when he was caught. Just easier that way.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
THE FUCK?
1) Legolas runs out of arrows. Really? The only time in six movies and it's at that moment? He has three or four backup blades on him. He doesn't have one last arrow hidden in his weave?
2) Thorin must have a fucked up brain. "Yeah, I got to walk after this fucker over the ice as he floats off. Hypothermia's too good for his albino ass."
3) Retard siege troll that knocks down walls by giving himself a concussion.
4) The dwarves all agree to brick up the entrance, even though at least one clearly thinks Thorin's going batshit wacky?
5) Legolas and Tauriel have sent who knows how many hundreds of orcs to their graves. They both have trouble with that one ... Bolg or whatever?
6) The mountain goats. Just fucking fuck.
7) Speaking of which ... the elves don't notice an army of metal-clad dwarves flanking them? And no one notices Azog and his lieutenants setting up shop out in the middle of everything on top of the tallest spire of rock?
The Ironfoot dwarves are getting their asses kicked for want of 13 reinforcements?
9) Gandalf's thoughts in the gibblet, "Goddamnit, I need to call for help, but no one's going to hear me. Wait a minute, I bet Radagast is tripping balls trying to commune with the rabbits or trees or rocks or wind or some shit. He's always listening."
10) "These orcs are bred for war." "These bats are bred for war." Come on. Apparently so are the elk, pigs, goats, eagles, elves, and dwarves. Every fucking thing in Middle-Earth is bred for war. Even the town militia held its own against shit "bred for war."
11) Earth-eaters? Fuck you. I was waiting for Bard to break out with, "Hold on a second. I hear ... tremors."
Edited By Malcolm on 1419313000
1) Legolas runs out of arrows. Really? The only time in six movies and it's at that moment? He has three or four backup blades on him. He doesn't have one last arrow hidden in his weave?
2) Thorin must have a fucked up brain. "Yeah, I got to walk after this fucker over the ice as he floats off. Hypothermia's too good for his albino ass."
3) Retard siege troll that knocks down walls by giving himself a concussion.
4) The dwarves all agree to brick up the entrance, even though at least one clearly thinks Thorin's going batshit wacky?
5) Legolas and Tauriel have sent who knows how many hundreds of orcs to their graves. They both have trouble with that one ... Bolg or whatever?
6) The mountain goats. Just fucking fuck.
7) Speaking of which ... the elves don't notice an army of metal-clad dwarves flanking them? And no one notices Azog and his lieutenants setting up shop out in the middle of everything on top of the tallest spire of rock?
The Ironfoot dwarves are getting their asses kicked for want of 13 reinforcements?9) Gandalf's thoughts in the gibblet, "Goddamnit, I need to call for help, but no one's going to hear me. Wait a minute, I bet Radagast is tripping balls trying to commune with the rabbits or trees or rocks or wind or some shit. He's always listening."
10) "These orcs are bred for war." "These bats are bred for war." Come on. Apparently so are the elk, pigs, goats, eagles, elves, and dwarves. Every fucking thing in Middle-Earth is bred for war. Even the town militia held its own against shit "bred for war."
11) Earth-eaters? Fuck you. I was waiting for Bard to break out with, "Hold on a second. I hear ... tremors."
Edited By Malcolm on 1419313000
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Another thought. You're Azog. You've got some worms that can eat their way through hills and mountains. Might you not drop off your forces directly inside Erebor? Why couldn't he he encourage them to tunnel under the other armies and fuck them up?GORDON wrote:I was thinking, "Maud dib, we have wormsign the like even which God has never seen."Malcolm wrote:11) Earth-eaters? Fuck you. I was waiting for Bard to break out with, "Hold on a second. I hear ... tremors."
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Then there was the entire squadron of Gundabad orcs that didn't believe in helmets that got knocked out by a rock-throwing hobbit. I'm trying to wrap my head around the dwarves. The same dudes that got schooled by a handful of trolls, same dudes that would've been goblin prisoners if not for their wizard, the same dudes chased and nearly exterminated by a posse of orcs a fraction the size of the forces on Ravenhill ... and they all become instant bad-asses after donning the Erebor gear.
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."