Yeah, I don't understand your thinking.Leisher wrote:I hope the sand tastes good.Right, and I'm with TPR. on the boycotting of it.
Capitalism works by where if you don't give things money, they stop existing.
Steam - The Future is Now
Leisher wrote:There is no doubt in my mind that it was a money issue for Steam/Valve. I have no doubt that the games they produce and sell over seas are done at a reduced rate. And that's why those people can sell them cheaper to us via ebay and what-not. If it was simply a region incompatibility thing, then valve would have simply flipped a bit or two on the Steam server and those people would have been reloaded with the correct region version for the region they were actually playing in. I mean come on. Isn't that the neat thing about Steam? Easy updates and software installs and stuff? Valve made less money on the copies coming in from Malasia. That's it. At no point did valve say "Sorry, those keys are pirated or invalid" or anything like that. They said "Wrong region". Which means, they want the full US retail price paid so they get more money.
If Valve was making the same amount from the overseas sales, then they would have no problem with giving the customers the correct version for the region they are playing in. After all, a legal/valid key is a legal/valid key.
So what you're saying is that despite the fact that Valve gets paid up front and this is really the distributor's money we're talking about, this is all due to Valve's greed? Because there's such an enormous segment of the market that shops overseas for video games so they can save $5?
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Are you implying that the distributors lose from overseas sales instead of Valve? Valve makes $X.XX regardless of how much, or where the distributor sells the product? Which then implies the distributors control Steam? So Steam isn't about making things happen without the distributors?
Why hasn't Valve sued eBay to prevent their games from being re-sold there? All the MMOs have done shit like that.
Good question. Why didn't they? Instead, they went after the people who thought they were customers of Valve. Thus, people questioning the customer service aspect of Valve/Steam.
As for the "switch a bit" thing, you must've been in a coma during the whole "Hot Coffee" debacle.
I have no idea what that means. I was saying that Steam could easily make sure the right regional version of software got to the person. Because really, that's all we are talking about here, is a key. A key that allows you to play a game that is attached to the Steam server. Sure, you can jump through hoops to play without the server. But that's not what Steam is all about. You buy a key, and you play the game for as long as Steam allows you. They bought their keys from a cheaper source overseas. Which means someone here (Valve, Steam, EA, whatever) didn't get as much money as they wanted. This isn't about consumer protection, it's about money.
And I'm with Catt. I vote with my dollars. Just because I don't start a campaign and make youtube videos speaking out about the evils of EA, doesn't mean I'm burying my head in the sand. I choose not to give them my money any more. I'm actively hurting EA. Burying your head in the sand is KNOWING how bad EA, and yet, still buying games from them. It's not my fault all the other people are to weak to make a stand. Everyone knows EA is bad for video games, but they keep supporting them. I can't help it so many people are retarded.
I'm doing my part.Leisher... don't read this.
Everyone else:
What if I purchase the Orange Box from an amazon.com warehouse in California, and then Valve decides I'm using the key that was sold to California at a discount and then got registered in Ohio?
A global economy... such as not realizing "Bob's Gaming Warehouse.com" is actually located in malaysia... means this is a legit concern. We now know that Valve will just up and deactivate legit purchases without warning, as they see fit.
Mass deactivations was a misstep. Even if it was a straight-up shady website... and there is no reason to believe that... the "cool" thing to do would be to say, "Hey, there's a batch of illegitimate keys out there. If you get this message, you got one. Contact us and we'll resolve this. We'll be shutting everyone else down in 7 days." But nope. Peeps got Microshafted.
Yes, I realize Valve is a business like any other... but there's still such a thing as pissing off your core demographic when there ARE alternative software companies out there. This thread is evidence that SOMETHING got fucked up, and the user base is riled, even if this was all just a massive misunderstanding.
I was planning on ordering the Orange Box this week. Not now. If this situation gets backed up and fixed properly, then I'll still get it. If not, I'll be picking it up in two years out of the $10 bin.
But I'm talking to everyone not Leisher, now... he'll never be convinced. He seems to be in a religious ecstacy over Valve and Steam, so complete is his Love.
Edited By GORDON on 1193700955
Everyone else:
What if I purchase the Orange Box from an amazon.com warehouse in California, and then Valve decides I'm using the key that was sold to California at a discount and then got registered in Ohio?
A global economy... such as not realizing "Bob's Gaming Warehouse.com" is actually located in malaysia... means this is a legit concern. We now know that Valve will just up and deactivate legit purchases without warning, as they see fit.
Mass deactivations was a misstep. Even if it was a straight-up shady website... and there is no reason to believe that... the "cool" thing to do would be to say, "Hey, there's a batch of illegitimate keys out there. If you get this message, you got one. Contact us and we'll resolve this. We'll be shutting everyone else down in 7 days." But nope. Peeps got Microshafted.
Yes, I realize Valve is a business like any other... but there's still such a thing as pissing off your core demographic when there ARE alternative software companies out there. This thread is evidence that SOMETHING got fucked up, and the user base is riled, even if this was all just a massive misunderstanding.
I was planning on ordering the Orange Box this week. Not now. If this situation gets backed up and fixed properly, then I'll still get it. If not, I'll be picking it up in two years out of the $10 bin.
But I'm talking to everyone not Leisher, now... he'll never be convinced. He seems to be in a religious ecstacy over Valve and Steam, so complete is his Love.
Edited By GORDON on 1193700955
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
Yeah... my memory is tainted by my brush with WGA one time. I left the pc off for a month, cme back, and it wouldn't boot any more at all.TheCatt wrote:No offense, Gordon, but Microsoft generally warns you before just killing you. And, they also let you run with lower levels of functionality, not just disabling you.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
In order for Valve to get my sympathy, they need to come up w\ a concrete example of how keys not in their proper regions could've ended up costing Valve an appreciable sum of cash in some legally binding way. I can understand a company treating some of its users like shit to cover up mistakes when the company's bottom line could be involved in legal issues. Then they need to do something to make up for fucking over the folks that got hammered w\ this key thing. Like give them $(Orange Box cost) towards a future purchase or something.
Either that or prove to me how a few keys in the wrong locales makes the world blow up.
Edited By Malcolm on 1193709108
Either that or prove to me how a few keys in the wrong locales makes the world blow up.
Edited By Malcolm on 1193709108
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
They don't even need to give them credit. Just give them the correct regional version. Once you buy a Steam game, you NEVER need the CD media again. They can tell all those users "Uninstall the version you are running, start Steam and all will be well" cause they will give the user the correct version. Since buying HL2 and the stuff that came with it, I haven't pulled the CD or my key off the shelf again. I've reloaded my system twice. I just download Steam, install it, log in, and all my software "HL2, CS, all the multiplayer stuff, etc) is automatically downloaded and installed on my PC. That's been the ONLY thing I've liked about Steam. I can walk away, and 4 hours later (or however long it takes) all my stuff is back and ready to go, fully patched. So that can give those people the stuff they want/need them to have. But they didn't, cause they want more money.
You know, if people actually read instead of just skimming, this would be a lot easier.
TPR -
Yeah, I'm not really debating any of that because for the most part, I agree. I just disagree with the theory of "boycotting" for reasons I'll get to in Catt's section.
Catt-
Eh, I think you were just skimming. My point was that boycotting really isn't going to do shit. Not at this juncture. You might as well start boycotting gasoline. Unless, of course, you're planning on getting everyone, everywhere to boycott, then yes, your "not giving things money" plan works.
Interestingly, I just cracked open my latest issue of the former Computer Games Magazine (now OGFW Magazine or something) and the first letter in the letters sections was from a reader pissed about online distribution and online activation. The response to his letter was along the lines of "Yeah...it sucks, but tough shit. Sooner rather than later, it will be the norm for most games."
That's my point. Boycotting doesn't do shit as it's already out there and it's spreading like a virus. It's already not just Steam distributed games, so how does boycotting Steam send a message? Won't you eventually, have to boycott every company out there? And at that point, haven't you surrendered your enjoyable past time?
I mean should someone just quit doing something they enjoy or fight for it? If this technology is that objectionable, shouldn't people be actively fighting it since it's spreading to every game company, and thus, to every game?
I wasn't saying run out and buy games using Steam, I was saying if you're going to fight it, it's going to take more than a boycott to win the battle.
Malcolm-
Well, there are more issues than just a few keys being out of region. I wrote about them earlier in the chain. The German/swastika example resulted in a lawsuit according to OGFWMagazine in a feature article they had earlier in the year. That was a situation in which an American version of the game ended up in Germany and the company had to pay some fines. I remember the same issue being talked about in the sequel to Wolfenstein (I think? Pick one of the 4,987,398 WW2 based games). The developers were very careful to leave out swastikas and to be totally safe they didn't include them in any countries version.
As for Valve's responsibility, I'd really like to know where you all shop. Here's why:
-Last year, a man got on eBay and sold Ohio State-Michigan tickets. The problem is he sold a bunch and he didn't have a single one. He got busted by the law, but should Ohio State, Michigan, or eBay have been responsible for his actions? Should they have compensated those who bought those "tickets" in good faith? Fuck no.
-Earlier this year a LEGIT U.S. company sold Microsoft software. A scandal occured involving China (the king of piracy and one of the places where one can get discount games) and the Microsoft software this company was selling. I believe they were getting it all from Chinese "discounters" and as it turns out, it was all pirated. Now these things were coming in legit boxes on legit CDs/DVDs, etc., but they were pirated. The U.S. company filed bankruptcy and all of their customers were fucked. Does that make Microsoft responsible for stepping in and providing financial relief to help them get the right software? Fuck no.
In the first case, had OSU, Mich, or eBay stepped in, it would've been pure charity to people who got scammed.
In the second case, MS had zero responsibility to step in (I honestly don't know if they did or didn't), but I do know it would've been good business to do so. They can afford the hit and they would've made some screwed over people into happy customers.
Point being, yes Valve should've stepped up and been more vocal about their actions, but if these consumers simply hit a "Buyer Beware" situation does Valve really bear any responsibility to them at all?
Al Gordon-
I'm anxiously awaiting your film about Steam's threat to humanity based on "proof that you've obtained from the brightest anonymous minds of the internet". (Yeah, I'm stretching the joke, but I think Al Gordon is hilarious.)
You say I'm in a religious ecstasy over Valve and Steam, fine. I guess that makes me no different than two EA stooges I knew back in the day. Oddly enough, one of them was actively boycotting EA at the time.
And for the last time, I'm not defending Valve. My whole point was that these consumers most likely aren't guilt free. Are we really saying that "Buyer beware" no longer applies? This from a forum full of intellectuals who bitch daily about a government that gives free handouts and assholes whining about how everything in their life isn't their fault? Now all of a sudden because it fits our agenda, we're supposed to side with people, stupid or not, who bought from an illegitimate source or got a illegitimate copy? We think the corporation who made the product, NOT the one that distributed it, is ultimately responsible for giving them all their money back?
I know what I'm getting you for Christmas, a "Flower Power" t-shirt you can wear to all your hippie gatherings.
The thing that irks me about your accusation is that I made one statement about how the consumers probably weren't completely without guilt, and now I'm labeled as Valve's lackey. Are we no longer allowed to debate anything that is posted on the web? Shouldn't you be screaming "Bush/Haliburton" at me?
As for Valve, if you really wanted me to defend them, I'd say something like this: Despite however bad they are at public relations, which they DO suck at, they do make good games. On top of that, they are doing more to get unknown games, from publishers that can't get or afford a distribution deal, out to the public. Yeah, they made Steam, which apparently is the end of the world, but they're doing a lot of good too. It's just too bad they can't do nothing but good like EA or Microsoft, huh?
Cake-
Debating with you is a love-hate thing. I hate knowing it's going to be a long winded affair, but I love the fact that you actually read the posts.
Steam was created as an alternative to entities like EA (specifically them in fact). So when you boycott Steam, you support EA. Now, Steam was NOT used as the distribution point in this case, so Steam isn't part of the distribution debate. Steam was just the online activation (and deactivation) tool, a point I've never debated so we can stop talking about Steam.
And yeah, the distributor doing the physical sales is taking the lion's share of the money, leaving little for the developer (whom we don't care about, right?). I'm sure they pay some pittance to the developer initially and I'm certain some rewards are given based on sales performance. However, you'd have to show me how big an issue this is in terms of sales. For it to actually hit Valve's wallet, it'd have to be a LOT of sales. On top of that, it'd have to be something they were actively looking for...
Think about it. You guys are focusing on where the game was bought, but have you yet equated it to "How does Valve know where they live?" This indicates that they'd have to be running and querying databases comparing addys to license keys or something to that effect, right?
OR perhaps these folks were using a license key that was stolen or maybe even marked as bogus and Valve was waiting until they saw who was buying what from where.
It HAS happened before. I know for a fact, a similar thing was done with Half-Life 2.
Because Valve doesn't give a shit about their games being resold for less. hell, they could sue EBGames too. That alone points to me being right about there being more to this story than what we're hearing from one source.
Again, wouldn't be the first time something posted out the web turned out to be bullshit or without all the facts.
Hot Coffee was a scandal with GTA 4. The programmers had put stuff into the code, but disabled it when the game shipped. The problem is that someone dug out the code and activated it. The code turned out to be the ability to make the main character have sex with his girlfriends and watch it in all its pixelated nakedness and glory. Pretty tame and boring actually, but the point is, if it's there, someone can dig it out. You can't just "Turn it off", which is what you were suggesting. That's why I used the swastika/Germany example. If Valve was found to be selling games there with swastikas in them "disabled" or not, they'd be in serious shit.
So yes, there are regional games. How that all translates to this, I have no fucking idea. That's on Valve to point out and they're pretty shitty at communicating with customers.
I answered all this above.
I answered this under Catt's section. Boycotting is fine, I was just pointing out that it's too little, too late.
Want to play FPSs anymore? Better have an online connection for activation. Bioshock apparently has it and I'd bet you money that Crysis will have it too.
Hell, I'll bet that by the end of 2008 all PC games and possibly all consoles will be coming out with online activation required.
Remember, they're not just a developer, they're a distributor too. Good luck finding games that aren't at least published by them. Ditto for MS who also is "evil".
Time to just give up gaming huh?
To sum up for all of you (consider this crib notes):
-I'm not defending Valve's actions, I'm just saying that there might be more to the story than what we're hearing. Call me crazy, but I'm become conditioned to the fact that people lie and not everything on the internet is 100% true.
-Keep in mind, Valve has sent out bad codes before to track down pirates and illegal vendors.
-Valve's PR and customer service sucks. Nobody is arguing that.
-Boycotting Steam, while buying EA and Microsoft products might be about as effective as putting the UN in charge of anything.
-Online distribution and activation are here to stay, boycott or not.
-I'm not nuts about it either.
-Al Gordon is hilarious.
TPR -
I do not agree with and will never purchase a product that either 1) the seller can deactivate my product at any time they wish, or 2) requires regular reactivation (which is similar to #1 in that they can stop allowing reactivation at any time). If I buy it, I want to be able to use it when I want to use it.
With the Steam service, you can't purchase a game. You only rent them for an indeterminate length of time for a one-time fee. As long as they control your access to it you simply do not own your copy of it.
Well, throwing more money at them probably isn't going to deter them.
Yeah, I'm not really debating any of that because for the most part, I agree. I just disagree with the theory of "boycotting" for reasons I'll get to in Catt's section.
Catt-
Yeah, I don't understand your thinking.
Capitalism works by where if you don't give things money, they stop existing.
Eh, I think you were just skimming. My point was that boycotting really isn't going to do shit. Not at this juncture. You might as well start boycotting gasoline. Unless, of course, you're planning on getting everyone, everywhere to boycott, then yes, your "not giving things money" plan works.
Interestingly, I just cracked open my latest issue of the former Computer Games Magazine (now OGFW Magazine or something) and the first letter in the letters sections was from a reader pissed about online distribution and online activation. The response to his letter was along the lines of "Yeah...it sucks, but tough shit. Sooner rather than later, it will be the norm for most games."
That's my point. Boycotting doesn't do shit as it's already out there and it's spreading like a virus. It's already not just Steam distributed games, so how does boycotting Steam send a message? Won't you eventually, have to boycott every company out there? And at that point, haven't you surrendered your enjoyable past time?
I mean should someone just quit doing something they enjoy or fight for it? If this technology is that objectionable, shouldn't people be actively fighting it since it's spreading to every game company, and thus, to every game?
I wasn't saying run out and buy games using Steam, I was saying if you're going to fight it, it's going to take more than a boycott to win the battle.
Malcolm-
In order for Valve to get my sympathy, they need to come up w\ a concrete example of how keys not in their proper regions could've ended up costing Valve an appreciable sum of cash in some legally binding way. I can understand a company treating some of its users like shit to cover up mistakes when the company's bottom line could be involved in legal issues. Then they need to do something to make up for fucking over the folks that got hammered w\ this key thing. Like give them $(Orange Box cost) towards a future purchase or something.
Either that or prove to me how a few keys in the wrong locales makes the world blow up.
Well, there are more issues than just a few keys being out of region. I wrote about them earlier in the chain. The German/swastika example resulted in a lawsuit according to OGFWMagazine in a feature article they had earlier in the year. That was a situation in which an American version of the game ended up in Germany and the company had to pay some fines. I remember the same issue being talked about in the sequel to Wolfenstein (I think? Pick one of the 4,987,398 WW2 based games). The developers were very careful to leave out swastikas and to be totally safe they didn't include them in any countries version.
As for Valve's responsibility, I'd really like to know where you all shop. Here's why:
-Last year, a man got on eBay and sold Ohio State-Michigan tickets. The problem is he sold a bunch and he didn't have a single one. He got busted by the law, but should Ohio State, Michigan, or eBay have been responsible for his actions? Should they have compensated those who bought those "tickets" in good faith? Fuck no.
-Earlier this year a LEGIT U.S. company sold Microsoft software. A scandal occured involving China (the king of piracy and one of the places where one can get discount games) and the Microsoft software this company was selling. I believe they were getting it all from Chinese "discounters" and as it turns out, it was all pirated. Now these things were coming in legit boxes on legit CDs/DVDs, etc., but they were pirated. The U.S. company filed bankruptcy and all of their customers were fucked. Does that make Microsoft responsible for stepping in and providing financial relief to help them get the right software? Fuck no.
In the first case, had OSU, Mich, or eBay stepped in, it would've been pure charity to people who got scammed.
In the second case, MS had zero responsibility to step in (I honestly don't know if they did or didn't), but I do know it would've been good business to do so. They can afford the hit and they would've made some screwed over people into happy customers.
Point being, yes Valve should've stepped up and been more vocal about their actions, but if these consumers simply hit a "Buyer Beware" situation does Valve really bear any responsibility to them at all?
Al Gordon-
I'm anxiously awaiting your film about Steam's threat to humanity based on "proof that you've obtained from the brightest anonymous minds of the internet". (Yeah, I'm stretching the joke, but I think Al Gordon is hilarious.)
You say I'm in a religious ecstasy over Valve and Steam, fine. I guess that makes me no different than two EA stooges I knew back in the day. Oddly enough, one of them was actively boycotting EA at the time.
And for the last time, I'm not defending Valve. My whole point was that these consumers most likely aren't guilt free. Are we really saying that "Buyer beware" no longer applies? This from a forum full of intellectuals who bitch daily about a government that gives free handouts and assholes whining about how everything in their life isn't their fault? Now all of a sudden because it fits our agenda, we're supposed to side with people, stupid or not, who bought from an illegitimate source or got a illegitimate copy? We think the corporation who made the product, NOT the one that distributed it, is ultimately responsible for giving them all their money back?
I know what I'm getting you for Christmas, a "Flower Power" t-shirt you can wear to all your hippie gatherings.
The thing that irks me about your accusation is that I made one statement about how the consumers probably weren't completely without guilt, and now I'm labeled as Valve's lackey. Are we no longer allowed to debate anything that is posted on the web? Shouldn't you be screaming "Bush/Haliburton" at me?
As for Valve, if you really wanted me to defend them, I'd say something like this: Despite however bad they are at public relations, which they DO suck at, they do make good games. On top of that, they are doing more to get unknown games, from publishers that can't get or afford a distribution deal, out to the public. Yeah, they made Steam, which apparently is the end of the world, but they're doing a lot of good too. It's just too bad they can't do nothing but good like EA or Microsoft, huh?
Cake-
Debating with you is a love-hate thing. I hate knowing it's going to be a long winded affair, but I love the fact that you actually read the posts.
I'm not sure I understand what you are saying here. Are you implying that the distributors lose from overseas sales instead of Valve? Valve makes $X.XX regardless of how much, or where the distributor sells the product? Which then implies the distributors control Steam? So Steam isn't about making things happen without the distributors?
Steam was created as an alternative to entities like EA (specifically them in fact). So when you boycott Steam, you support EA. Now, Steam was NOT used as the distribution point in this case, so Steam isn't part of the distribution debate. Steam was just the online activation (and deactivation) tool, a point I've never debated so we can stop talking about Steam.
And yeah, the distributor doing the physical sales is taking the lion's share of the money, leaving little for the developer (whom we don't care about, right?). I'm sure they pay some pittance to the developer initially and I'm certain some rewards are given based on sales performance. However, you'd have to show me how big an issue this is in terms of sales. For it to actually hit Valve's wallet, it'd have to be a LOT of sales. On top of that, it'd have to be something they were actively looking for...
Think about it. You guys are focusing on where the game was bought, but have you yet equated it to "How does Valve know where they live?" This indicates that they'd have to be running and querying databases comparing addys to license keys or something to that effect, right?
OR perhaps these folks were using a license key that was stolen or maybe even marked as bogus and Valve was waiting until they saw who was buying what from where.
It HAS happened before. I know for a fact, a similar thing was done with Half-Life 2.
Good question. Why didn't they? Instead, they went after the people who thought they were customers of Valve. Thus, people questioning the customer service aspect of Valve/Steam.
Because Valve doesn't give a shit about their games being resold for less. hell, they could sue EBGames too. That alone points to me being right about there being more to this story than what we're hearing from one source.
Again, wouldn't be the first time something posted out the web turned out to be bullshit or without all the facts.
I have no idea what that means.
Hot Coffee was a scandal with GTA 4. The programmers had put stuff into the code, but disabled it when the game shipped. The problem is that someone dug out the code and activated it. The code turned out to be the ability to make the main character have sex with his girlfriends and watch it in all its pixelated nakedness and glory. Pretty tame and boring actually, but the point is, if it's there, someone can dig it out. You can't just "Turn it off", which is what you were suggesting. That's why I used the swastika/Germany example. If Valve was found to be selling games there with swastikas in them "disabled" or not, they'd be in serious shit.
So yes, there are regional games. How that all translates to this, I have no fucking idea. That's on Valve to point out and they're pretty shitty at communicating with customers.
I was saying that Steam could easily make sure the right regional version of software got to the person. Because really, that's all we are talking about here, is a key. A key that allows you to play a game that is attached to the Steam server. Sure, you can jump through hoops to play without the server. But that's not what Steam is all about. You buy a key, and you play the game for as long as Steam allows you. They bought their keys from a cheaper source overseas. Which means someone here (Valve, Steam, EA, whatever) didn't get as much money as they wanted. This isn't about consumer protection, it's about money.
I answered all this above.
And I'm with Catt. I vote with my dollars.
I answered this under Catt's section. Boycotting is fine, I was just pointing out that it's too little, too late.
Want to play FPSs anymore? Better have an online connection for activation. Bioshock apparently has it and I'd bet you money that Crysis will have it too.
Hell, I'll bet that by the end of 2008 all PC games and possibly all consoles will be coming out with online activation required.
Just because I don't start a campaign and make youtube videos speaking out about the evils of EA, doesn't mean I'm burying my head in the sand. I choose not to give them my money any more. I'm actively hurting EA. Burying your head in the sand is KNOWING how bad EA, and yet, still buying games from them. It's not my fault all the other people are to weak to make a stand. Everyone knows EA is bad for video games, but they keep supporting them. I can't help it so many people are retarded.
Remember, they're not just a developer, they're a distributor too. Good luck finding games that aren't at least published by them. Ditto for MS who also is "evil".
Time to just give up gaming huh?
To sum up for all of you (consider this crib notes):
-I'm not defending Valve's actions, I'm just saying that there might be more to the story than what we're hearing. Call me crazy, but I'm become conditioned to the fact that people lie and not everything on the internet is 100% true.
-Keep in mind, Valve has sent out bad codes before to track down pirates and illegal vendors.
-Valve's PR and customer service sucks. Nobody is arguing that.
-Boycotting Steam, while buying EA and Microsoft products might be about as effective as putting the UN in charge of anything.
-Online distribution and activation are here to stay, boycott or not.
-I'm not nuts about it either.
-Al Gordon is hilarious.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
Sure, I'll boycott anyone. I don't see the issue. Two other people in this thread said they'd boycott as well. We're going grass roots.
I won't give up the past-time, because there will always be people who will make enjoyable games without that crap. Not everyone sells songs via DRM-laced iTunes, but many say that's the way that industry is going. Radiohead even offered their album for whatever you wanted to pay for it. Sure, my choices will be more limited, but that just means more time with my MAME games.
Edited By TheCatt on 1193782532
I won't give up the past-time, because there will always be people who will make enjoyable games without that crap. Not everyone sells songs via DRM-laced iTunes, but many say that's the way that industry is going. Radiohead even offered their album for whatever you wanted to pay for it. Sure, my choices will be more limited, but that just means more time with my MAME games.
Edited By TheCatt on 1193782532
It's not me, it's someone else.
Yeah, there's umpteen zillion games out there that I can get for free. There's emulators. There's ROMs. & I assure you, there is NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING, that the vid game industry or regulatory bodies can do to prevent piracy completely. The more people that get pissed off, the more are inclined to fuck over the industry, adding to the pool of pirates. Hell, torrenting a game isn't much more difficult that torrenting a mp3. The more sledgehammer moves made by major game companies on major products, I bet you the more prevalent & easier piracy will become.TheCatt wrote:Sure, I'll boycott anyone. I don't see the issue. Two other people in this thread said they'd boycott as well. We're going grass roots.
I won't give up the past-time, because there will always be people who will make enjoyable games without that crap. Not everyone sells songs via DRM-laced iTunes, but many say that's the way that industry is going. Radiohead even offered their album for whatever you wanted to pay for it. Sure, my choices will be more limited, but that just means more time with my MAME games.
If you want to push potentially some blame on the folks that bought the game, that's fine. But Valve'd best not be surprised when folk get pissed at their actions (even done w\ ideal intentions) when they just do mass deactivations w\ no warning other than, "Your key is in the wrong region," & then squash complaints w\ no explanation.
& I wait for the day when companies will self-publish their software (for download) much in the same way that some musicians/authors/whatever self-publish their shit online now. I do not wish to see the vid game industry equivalent of the RIAA coalesce.
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
You're well on your way to a smacked bottom.
Tease.
Sure, I'll boycott anyone. I don't see the issue. Two other people in this thread said they'd boycott as well. We're going grass roots.
Let me know when you march on Washington, I'll join you.
I won't give up the past-time, because there will always be people who will make enjoyable games without that crap. Not everyone sells songs via DRM-laced iTunes, but many say that's the way that industry is going. Radiohead even offered their album for whatever you wanted to pay for it. Sure, my choices will be more limited, but that just means more time with my MAME games.
Wouldn't it be great if the gaming industry was like the music industry in that an independent with no financing could make something just as good as a studio?
I mean, if Urban Dead can be fun with 10 moves a day and no graphics outside of a map, imagine what it could be like with a budget.
Yeah, there's umpteen zillion games out there that I can get for free. There's emulators. There's ROMs. & I assure you, there is NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING, that the vid game industry or regulatory bodies can do to prevent piracy completely. The more people that get pissed off, the more are inclined to fuck over the industry, adding to the pool of pirates. Hell, torrenting a game isn't much more difficult that torrenting a mp3. The more sledgehammer moves made by major game companies on major products, I bet you the more prevalent & easier piracy will become.
So the solution is to steal everything?
As Catt says,
Capitalism works by where if you don't give things money, they stop existing.
I endorse pirating when a publisher deliberately shits on the public by releasing substandard crap, because they deserve it. However, if we're being realistic about it, if everyone pirated games, there'd be no more games.
So while it is an answer for rebellion, it's not the solution.
If you want to push potentially some blame on the folks that bought the game, that's fine. But Valve'd best not be surprised when folk get pissed at their actions (even done w\ ideal intentions) when they just do mass deactivations w\ no warning other than, "Your key is in the wrong region," & then squash complaints w\ no explanation.
We covered that and Valve is 100% wrong in that respect.
& I wait for the day when companies will self-publish their software (for download) much in the same way that some musicians/authors/whatever self-publish their shit online now. I do not wish to see the vid game industry equivalent of the RIAA coalesce.
Uhm...Steam IS a company self-publishing their software. Valve got into a fight with its publisher, EA, and they created Steam to cut them out of the process. The controversy about Steam stems from it's activation (and apparently deactivation) abilities.
I guess in a way, by boycotting Steam, one would be supporting EA. No company represents corporate greed and a total lack of respect for the customers more than EA.
Hey boycotters, I'm just curious, does the boycott apply to your kids? If your kid wanted a game from a publisher for Christmas, would you get it for them or would you force your boycott on your kid?
I think the compromise would be to give them a gift card to Best Buy or something and tell them they can get what they want.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
Boycott apply to my kid(s) - Absolutely. They could buy their own with their own allowance, but I wouldn't buy it for them, nor give them a directly enabling gift like a gift card. If a kid wants something, earn it.
Babies, on the other hand, can have anything they want. Even slaves.
Babies, on the other hand, can have anything they want. Even slaves.
It's not me, it's someone else.
The more I think about it, most of the games I've'd some of the greatest fun playing weren't exactly graphics heavy. Zork, Gold Box Series, etc.TheCatt wrote:Also, I take issue with your graphics argument. Most games these days spend ridiculous amounts of time on graphics, and not enough on game play. Wii Sports has taken up most of my gaming time in the past year, and those graphics are rather plain. But it's fun.
& piracy is always an option. I typically don't like doing that sort of thing unless there's no other way to get my software. Piracy is the black market balance to companies getting too full of themselves.
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Elder Scrolls: Oblivian, the best selling game of... the year? All time? Didn't have any copy priotection at all, not even a key to be typed in.
As far as I'm concerned, that's the last word on the "copy protection" debate.
If it is a good game, people will buy it.
Edited By GORDON on 1193844145
As far as I'm concerned, that's the last word on the "copy protection" debate.
If it is a good game, people will buy it.
Edited By GORDON on 1193844145
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
I thought Valve got pissy w\ Vivendi/Sierra.
Eh, they got pissy with someone. Vivendi/Sierra, EA, Microsoft, etc. They're all the same.
Boycott apply to my kid(s) - Absolutely. They could buy their own with their own allowance, but I wouldn't buy it for them, nor give them a directly enabling gift like a gift card. If a kid wants something, earn it.
Babies, on the other hand, can have anything they want. Even slaves.
So when a baby turn into a kid?
Also, I take issue with your graphics argument. Most games these days spend ridiculous amounts of time on graphics, and not enough on game play. Wii Sports has taken up most of my gaming time in the past year, and those graphics are rather plain. But it's fun.
Stop right there. Go search through these chains and you'll find that I'm the biggest proponent of gameplay over graphics. Graphics are just easy to make an reference when talking about new technology rather than physics or innovations in gameplay.
I have always said the graphics are nice, but the gameplay and story is what makes a game fun and entertaining.
So no argument from me regarding graphics.
Hell, Crysis is all the talk of the gaming world and personally, I've been thinking that they're pushing the envelope too much with the graphics and they need to worry about the gameplay being fun. That's one thing about FarCry (a previous game by the company), it was gorgeous, but what they put into the graphics was missing from the AI and gameplay.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”