How can you use that argument in a country where a cup of coffee has a warning label that says "CAUTION : HOT" even as you see it being poured & columns of steam wafting from it? Or where shampoos need to explain that shampoo for "dry hair" will not actually give you dry hair? How many useless fucking consumer warnings go on products everyday? Shit, I'm surprised knives don't have warning labels that say, "Don't cut yourself."
Because I believe in capitalism?
Because I'm against social programs that feed a person instead of helping them feed themselves?
Because I'm not suggesting a warning label be slapped on every product in the world with "Buyer Beware"?
In fact, I'm not even sure how you came up with that argument. Aren't you one of the biggest proponents of weening people off the government tit? Why do you want to give them a corporate one to nuzzle?
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
Yes. I am boycotting Steam and will not use it to purchase any games. Ever.
Wait, do you mean boycotting the purchase of items off Steam or buying any product that uses Steam? (And I guess you should include any product that includes online activation through Steam or any service.)
All of the above, and I stand corrected on the issue of uncertainty about the location of the stores. At least that commenter knew it was an overseas purchase (and maybe all of them did, don't know).
"ATTENTION: Customers browsing porn must hold magazines with both hands at all times!"
Yes. I am boycotting Steam and will not use it to purchase any games. Ever.
Wait, do you mean boycotting the purchase of items off Steam or buying any product that uses Steam? (And I guess you should include any product that includes online activation through Steam or any service.)
All of the above, and I stand corrected on the issue of uncertainty about the location of the stores. At least that commenter knew it was an overseas purchase (and maybe all of them did, don't know).
Well then stop buying games. Hell, stop buying software all together.
Seriously.
This is not some fad like "Rock and Roll". It's not going away and it's not going to be limited to games. Anyone notice they're started online distribution with movies?
This isn't just a Steam thing. It's other games from other companies that aren't even associated with Steam. Some games have no component like Steam, yet still do online checks without warning you. Fucking Bush and his damn software policies.
Boycotting is akin to sticking your head in the sand. Stand up and fight it now or stop bitching about it. In ten years you won't be able to get a game (console or PC) without it needing some online activation.
And if you plan to stop playing, well then, stop now. Then vote Democrat since you like people telling you how to live.
Ok, I'm purposely trying to take this thing to the limit, but that's the point of this all. I'm not defending Valve, I'm playing Devil's Advocate.
(P.S. I added the Bush comment to heighten the chances of this post being picked up by the AP.)
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
How can you use that argument in a country where a cup of coffee has a warning label that says "CAUTION : HOT" even as you see it being poured & columns of steam wafting from it? Or where shampoos need to explain that shampoo for "dry hair" will not actually give you dry hair? How many useless fucking consumer warnings go on products everyday? Shit, I'm surprised knives don't have warning labels that say, "Don't cut yourself."
Because I believe in capitalism?
Because I'm against social programs that feed a person instead of helping them feed themselves?
Because I'm not suggesting a warning label be slapped on every product in the world with "Buyer Beware"?
In fact, I'm not even sure how you came up with that argument. Aren't you one of the biggest proponents of weening people off the government tit? Why do you want to give them a corporate one to nuzzle?
Cos "Buyer Beware" is no longer the credo in this country. It's "I'll sue your ass." Merely presenting reality, regardless of how much I despise it.
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Go try returning for a refund an opened game to Best Buy, a well-known American company.
Wrong argument.
You can. Very easily.
I have no idea how. It says on the wall in big letters that they don't refund opened software, they only exchange it.
At least it did last time I tried to return opened software, and they wouldn't let me.
I've gotten cash refunds from Best Buy before for opened software, but I did some extensive verbal wrangling w\ the drone at the customer service desk. & even as far as drones go, he wasn't that bright.
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
If Leisher would just admit that this was a dick move on Valve's part, we could move on. If he keeps defending it I'm going to start suspecting he's on Valve's payroll.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
I have no idea how. It says on the wall in big letters that they don't refund opened software, they only exchange it.
At least it did last time I tried to return opened software, and they wouldn't let me.
I've gotten cash refunds from Best Buy before for opened software, but I did some extensive verbal wrangling w\ the drone at the customer service desk. & even as far as drones go, he wasn't that bright.
Would you consider that refund "easily done," as was claimed? When I think "easily done" I think, " Hi, I'd like a refund for this, please." "Ok."
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
I have no idea how. It says on the wall in big letters that they don't refund opened software, they only exchange it.
At least it did last time I tried to return opened software, and they wouldn't let me.
Actually, as Malcolm states, you can get refunds. In the case I've seen it's either because the CD or CD Key is broken (usually an exchange situation) OR the software itself is broken (refunds). I remember Ultima IX being a game that was widely accepted for full refunds.
Still, I have to once again point out that this doesn't matter at all to the debate we're having in this chain.
If Leisher would just admit that this was a dick move on Valve's part, we could move on. If he keeps defending it I'm going to start suspecting he's on Valve's payroll.
As evidenced by your continuing argument about Best Buy's return policies, you're not reading what I'm writing or you wouldn't be arguing with me anymore.
I'm NOT defending Valve's move as I (and YOU) don't know what their reasons were. I realize everything we read on the web is true, particularly when it's we're going on the word of the person with the complaint (In this case, people brilliant enough to shop for game software via international markets known for piracy.), but I still am trying to err on the side of caution here for the reasons I stated.
Cos "Buyer Beware" is no longer the credo in this country. It's "I'll sue your ass." Merely presenting reality, regardless of how much I despise it.
You need to go back and re-read. I'm not advocating that we protect stupid people through "Buyer Beware", which I think you're assuming. Actually, if that is what you're assuming, then you should be on my side of this debate.
I'm using "Buyer Beware" as a "tough shit" to people who take risks when shopping.
Every store on this planet isn't legit and people need to use more caution.
If you saw a 52" plasma TV for sale in a pawn shop for $200 would you immediately think "Wow, the deal of the century, I'm buying it!" or "What's wrong with this picture?"
Edited By Leisher on 1193679655
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
I'm not advocating that we protect stupid people through "Buyer Beware", which I think you're assuming.
That philosophy does not seem to be embraced by the Western world. If it were, I could buy damn near anything from anyone & that's simply not the fucking case. "Buyer beware" went out the window when biz got too heavily regulated. In fact, I can't think of any gov't in history that's actually gone full tilt w\ it. Even Hammurabi had laws about craftsmen that didn't do their work properly. Certain states have various "Lemon laws" about selling crappy used cars. The only time I saw "Buyer beware" actually implemented was when the Star Trek episodes involved Ferengi.
The philosophy doesn't seem to be caveat emptor. It appears to be the biz having to conform to whatever bodies get to regulate it.
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
My point, Malcolm, was that the buyer is at least partially responsible in this situation. Others disagreed.
Thus, my invoking of "Buyer Beware".
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
I'm with TPR. I don't need this centralized activation BS.
Am I typing in a different language? TPR and I are in agreement about centralized activation being BS. In fact, I don't think anyone is arguing "for" it.
Where we don't agree is what to do about it.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
My point, Malcolm, was that the buyer is at least partially responsible in this situation. Others disagreed.
Thus, my invoking of "Buyer Beware".
I suppose that they didn't have a gun pointed at their heads, forcing them to buy the software in what they perceived to be the easiest, cheapest way available. If you want to get down to brass tacks, then any time you give your cash to someone, you should be wary. After all, they're really just there to take your cash. That being said, while I doubt some exec at Valve said, "Dude, you know what'd be totally awesome? Deactivating copies of games in regions where they don't belong," the very, very, VERY FUCKING LEAST they could've done was announce recalls like most other companies do. And as stated in the original article ...
There was no warning or anything, just completely inactivated.
The thread that was started on www.valve.com has been removed by the operators there.
The first point tells you exactly what Valve thinks of everyone that spends cash on their shit. The second point I might be able to understand, had any kind of heads up been given. Seriously, you take away someone's toy w\o warning & then get pissed when they get uppity? While what was done may've been done for the best of intentions (saving Valve from legal infringements or what have you), the fact remains that it makes Valve look like a gargantuan asshole that doesn't give a flying fuck about treating their market like anything beyond fields in which cash grows. Who the fuck green-lighted this decision? Who said, "Well, the best option at this point is to just flat out kill things." Do they have a PR department? Were they on fucking vacation? Then again, this is the Great and Holy Half-Life, so they could probably kick most of their customers square in the 'nads & no one would care, as long as they can blast aliens eventually.
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
There is no doubt in my mind that it was a money issue for Steam/Valve. I have no doubt that the games they produce and sell over seas are done at a reduced rate. And that's why those people can sell them cheaper to us via ebay and what-not. If it was simply a region incompatibility thing, then valve would have simply flipped a bit or two on the Steam server and those people would have been reloaded with the correct region version for the region they were actually playing in. I mean come on. Isn't that the neat thing about Steam? Easy updates and software installs and stuff? Valve made less money on the copies coming in from Malasia. That's it. At no point did valve say "Sorry, those keys are pirated or invalid" or anything like that. They said "Wrong region". Which means, they want the full US retail price paid so they get more money.
If Valve was making the same amount from the overseas sales, then they would have no problem with giving the customers the correct version for the region they are playing in. After all, a legal/valid key is a legal/valid key.
That being said, while I doubt some exec at Valve said, "Dude, you know what'd be totally awesome? Deactivating copies of games in regions where they don't belong," the very, very, VERY FUCKING LEAST they could've done was announce recalls like most other companies do.
Two things there: That is why I'm not jumping to conclusions and judging. I never said they weren't at fault for not informing people of what was happening.
That being said, maybe they aren't ready to make a statement? This is a corporation we're talking about here. That means a legal department. The legal department may be forbidding anyone from commenting on what's going on until they prepare a statement. We don't know. All anyone is going on is one side of the story. That's was my only point.
The first point tells you exactly what Valve thinks of everyone that spends cash on their shit.
Again, it goes to the legalities of the situation. If nothing is ever said, then yes. However, if a statement does eventually come out to explain, then your statement would be unfair.
The second point I might be able to understand, had any kind of heads up been given. Seriously, you take away someone's toy w\o warning & then get pissed when they get uppity? While what was done may've been done for the best of intentions (saving Valve from legal infringements or what have you), the fact remains that it makes Valve look like a gargantuan asshole that doesn't give a flying fuck about treating their market like anything beyond fields in which cash grows. Who the fuck green-lighted this decision? Who said, "Well, the best option at this point is to just flat out kill things." Do they have a PR department? Were they on fucking vacation? Then again, this is the Great and Holy Half-Life, so they could probably kick most of their customers square in the 'nads & no one would care, as long as they can blast aliens eventually.
Keep in mind what you're basing your opinion on too. One side of the story, which may or may not be the real story. Would it be the first time in human history that someone was bitching about something and wasn't revealing the whole truth? Hell, it wouldn't be the first time peeps on this forum got worked up over a story that turned out to be bullshit. NOT SAYING IT IS, just making a point.
There is a bit of truth in Valve's stupidity whether they were in the right here or not. If they saw this coming, they should've prepared some sort of statement before acting. It is 2007 and word travels way too fast these days. Corporations have to come to realize that moves like this are going to be pre-judged before they get a chance to counter. They need to prepare their counter before taking the action.
There is no doubt in my mind that it was a money issue for Steam/Valve. I have no doubt that the games they produce and sell over seas are done at a reduced rate. And that's why those people can sell them cheaper to us via ebay and what-not. If it was simply a region incompatibility thing, then valve would have simply flipped a bit or two on the Steam server and those people would have been reloaded with the correct region version for the region they were actually playing in. I mean come on. Isn't that the neat thing about Steam? Easy updates and software installs and stuff? Valve made less money on the copies coming in from Malasia. That's it. At no point did valve say "Sorry, those keys are pirated or invalid" or anything like that. They said "Wrong region". Which means, they want the full US retail price paid so they get more money.
If Valve was making the same amount from the overseas sales, then they would have no problem with giving the customers the correct version for the region they are playing in. After all, a legal/valid key is a legal/valid key.
So what you're saying is that despite the fact that Valve gets paid up front and this is really the distributor's money we're talking about, this is all due to Valve's greed? Because there's such an enormous segment of the market that shops overseas for video games so they can save $5?
Why hasn't Valve sued eBay to prevent their games from being re-sold there? All the MMOs have done shit like that.
As for the "switch a bit" thing, you must've been in a coma during the whole "Hot Coffee" debacle.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
Leisher wrote:Boycotting is akin to sticking your head in the sand. Stand up and fight it now or stop bitching about it. In ten years you won't be able to get a game (console or PC) without it needing some online activation.
Just to clarify, I have no problem at all with online activation. I also don't mind digital distribution. I rather like it in fact. I prefer downloads.
I do not agree with and will never purchase a product that either 1) the seller can deactivate my product at any time they wish, or 2) requires regular reactivation (which is similar to #1 in that they can stop allowing reactivation at any time). If I buy it, I want to be able to use it when I want to use it.
With the Steam service, you can't purchase a game. You only rent them for an indeterminate length of time for a one-time fee. As long as they control your access to it you simply do not own your copy of it.
"ATTENTION: Customers browsing porn must hold magazines with both hands at all times!"
I'm with TPR. I don't need this centralized activation BS.
Am I typing in a different language? TPR and I are in agreement about centralized activation being BS. In fact, I don't think anyone is arguing "for" it.
Where we don't agree is what to do about it.
Well, throwing more money at them probably isn't going to deter them.
Edited By TPRJones on 1193691440
"ATTENTION: Customers browsing porn must hold magazines with both hands at all times!"
