Leisher wrote:For that game we needed to all buy pink eye and go around killing their wards. We didn't, and instead were forced to play conservatively because we didn't know where they were. Meanwhile, they controlled the map because they knew where we were.
Who is this "we" you speak of, kimosabe? I killed a couple wards with pinkeye before they ganged up on me. I was basically countering their Xin Jao, then they got me and I stopped trying to do that and was behind on gear and levels and in bad shape.
Like I said, that game their Xin Jao was not playing League of Legends, he was playing "Seed the jungle with wards." He was defensive and light on gear so he could afford more wards and as far as I can tell was avoiding all contact.
So. Yeah, everyone needs to keep buying wards, and if we notice they have lots of wards, we need our tankiest person to go defensive and pinkeye the jungle to make them blind. Problem with that is, as I learned last night, when you are killing one of their wards, their entire team knows where you are. Got to kill it and run and hope, I guess.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
Like I said, that game their Xin Jao was not playing League of Legends, he was playing "Seed the jungle with wards."
Lee Sin
So. Yeah, everyone needs to keep buying wards, and if we notice they have lots of wards, we need our tankiest person to go defensive and pinkeye the jungle to make them blind. Problem with that is, as I learned last night, when you are killing one of their wards, their entire team knows where you are. Got to kill it and run and hope, I guess.
I think we need to make an effort to do it either with two of us or all three. You have no damage yet, and are spending money on pink eye or wards, so you should have someone there hitting things with you.
Does pink eye show your teammates hidden things as well?
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
I say "Be more cautious" because "Play like a team" is just as over said. And playing more cautious is easier.
We pick champs that are fun to play and have a chance of working well together. Jax, Trynd, Lee says "We want to win. And we are going to."
There was little we could have done against that team. We couldn't engage them. I was just as leveled as Jax and he killed me and Gordon. 1v1, Jax is WAY more powerful. So is Trynd. Unless he doesn't have his ult available. Then Noc will win (same level/farm assumed). Lee Sin. . . hard to say. I don't face him much. I can't speak for Teemo 1v1 because we don't lane together so I don't have a real feel for him. So, our only chance of winning was to not engage them. But that's only going to last so long as well. They were killing our turrets, we weren't leaving our base. We couldn't. When we did, we would die. Them having wards helped them kill us, because they could find us. But, no matter what, when our paths crossed, they were going to win the encounter. Unless we ran keeping them from killing us.
In my opinion, wards would have helped us avoid them. That's all. It wouldn't have helped us kill them. At best, we'd kill one of them, but they were kill multiples of us. We were never going to win any fights. Thus, play cautiously. We wait. Farm as much as we can. Avoid them. Wait for them to get careless. Wait to fight them under our turrets, get a small advantage and push with it. Hope they made a bunch of mistakes. Etc. Both teams playing well, they win. Nothing would have prevented that. Our ONLY chance was to stay alive for as long as possible, making NO mistakes, and waiting for them to make some. Then taking advantage of them.
Like Gordon said "Killing their ward told them where you were, and they would come kill you". So, pink eye didn't do anything. Placing wards would just give them something to kill because they owned the map. And they didn't own the map because they could see it. They owned it because if they saw us, they would kill us or chase us away. Maybe I'm underestimating Teemo. But in my opinion, the best we could hope for was taking one, MAYBE two of them with us as they aced us. Our only chance was to play cautious, avoid them, and capitalize on their mistakes. ONLY fight them under our turrets, etc. They had to lose that game as there was no way for us to win it.
And when a team has trouble playing as a team because there are lone wolfers, split pushers, random junglers, etc. Saying "play cautious" and grouping up in our base at least puts us all back on the same screen. Now, when the enemy comes, we are all there to do something about it instead of one person pushing top, one getting blue, one shopping and the last two trying to defend against 4 or 5 enemies. "Play cautious" forces us to group together. You say playing cautious means "Hide in spawn", I think it means "group up and stick together". And we can't just say "Group up and stay together". Because we don't. When we say "Play cautious" it creates a rally point, our base, where we group up and have a chance of playing like a team. In a recent game, you pointed out our best play was when we started playing cautious and we were all grouped up in our base. We were hitting targets better and actually causing problems for the other team. We even managed a push all the way to an inhibitor. But then, during that push, one went top lane, one started getting jungle buffs, and the pushers tried to keep the momentum going and ended up dying as the other team spawned. We regrouped at spawn "playing cautiously" until we created another opening. However, it was too little, too late and we continued to make mistakes the enemy took advantage of. Some of our best team play comes under the 'cautious' banner.
As far as me being leader, I tried again last night for the first time in a long time. The last game. And there was one person on our team that gave me a really hard time which made it difficult. But seriously, it really impacted my game play. I'm watching the whole board trying to keep intel flowing, trying to come up with strategies and plans for what to do, etc. Which causes me to lose a lot of the awareness of my own surroundings, etc. Plus, I REALLY hated that Wukong last night. Someone taking credit for everything we were doing is probably worse than. . . other BS that randoms do. I made a bigger effort to split push as an AD carry last night as well. I've often said that I think it would be better for Singed to be playing D and a carry do the pushing instead of him. So, I tried to take that role pushing him into the defensive stance. I remember one instance it worked pretty well. I started pushing top and didn't stop till I killed two of their turrets. I think we lost one and they tried to take a second but were stopped. It would have taken Singed a lot longer to kill those two turrets and I'm betting did better on D than I would have. But anyway, that's what I was doing last night. So, my k/d ratio suffered, but I still felt like I was getting a lot done. Also, I was acting as an initiator a lot knowing that if I called a target, went after that target, that the team would follow. And you would. I would die, but I setup the kills, so it worked out.
Personally, I think you should just condescendingly, yet snarkily say "You know..." whenever we're getting beat. Same message.
At least we'll laugh.
"Play cautious" forces us to group together. You say playing cautious means "Hide in spawn", I think it means "group up and stick together". And we can't just say "Group up and stay together". Because we don't. When we say "Play cautious" it creates a rally point, our base, where we group up and have a chance of playing like a team. In a recent game, you pointed out our best play was when we started playing cautious and we were all grouped up in our base. We were hitting targets better and actually causing problems for the other team. We even managed a push all the way to an inhibitor. But then, during that push, one went top lane, one started getting jungle buffs, and the pushers tried to keep the momentum going and ended up dying as the other team spawned. We regrouped at spawn "playing cautiously" until we created another opening. However, it was too little, too late and we continued to make mistakes the enemy took advantage of. Some of our best team play comes under the 'cautious' banner.
I get what you're saying, and I'm not shooting it down, BUT at lvl 1, in the laning phase, it's been said repeatedly to "play cautiously", and that doesn't match up with the rest of what you typed.
Point being, I've got no issue with "play cautiously" once the laning phase ends. Go look back at everything I've typed on the subject. It's ALWAYS about the laning phase. You can't group up 4-5 people during laning phase...
Back to that Jax/Trynd/Lee Sin team: We could have won that game, we just weren't prepared. Straight up against those guys, I think winning is on the table. Lee Sin is only super dangerous in the right hands. Ditto for Trynd. Jax, however, is an asshole. I know you have trouble with him as Noc. Teemo does fare better, but I need items to get there.
(I'm going to talk more about Teemo in the character thread.)
Because they had map control, we were having trouble farming, and only feeding them if we left the turrets.
I don't think they thumped us badly in kills. They simply threw down wards, ganked every chance they had, all pushed lanes when we were removed, and never let up the pressure. They were a hell of a good team.
The ONLY strategy I see beating that is to eliminate their wards, and counter their strategy like Gordo suggested. Do it right back to them. There's a saying in basketball about teams that love to full court press, the way to beat them is to do it right back to them. They hate it. I don't know why, but it's true.
Same situation here. Turn off their eyes, and all of a sudden we can gank. They start moving around more hesitantly because they don't know where we are, etc.
I just believe a more pro-active approach to that game would've given us a better chance of winning than our "D until the ace" win. They were too good to slow down long enough for us to catch up.
Like I said, I'm glad we faced that team. It was a good learning experience.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
I have no problem not playing top, but sometimes I feel like I have best map-awareness overall, and that 25% of the game I am watching the minimap instead of my character, and I am usually the first one to notice when minions are pushing one of our lanes, or that we have a turret-pushing opportunity with a big glob of our minions closing in, or whatever. Which is why I am usually first responder to that.
I have no problem taking charge, too. My first rule would that EVERYONE needs to be buying and placing at least 1 ward when they hit the spawn. No exceptions. I thought Randy's placing of wards in the enemy jungle was brilliant, when we were pushed past the middle of the map, and we needed awareness of that area.
We typically call out a lane push if circumstances arise to do so, and I usually don't need to be told to stay in-lane for one, but if I peel off for some reason during a heavy lane push, tell me to stay. Since turret kills are my #1 priority, there must have been something I didn't notice, and I peeled off to be useful elsewhere. But call out my name or character, and make sure I acknowledge. Make sure I heard the order.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
I thought the best play of the night was when I teleported ahead of a fleeing Amumu and cut off his escape.
I loved it, but I would have caught him
As far as me being leader, I tried again last night for the first time in a long time. The last game. And there was one person on our team that gave me a really hard time which made it difficult. But seriously, it really impacted my game play.
I got annoyed last night at you when you said, "play cautiously". I wasn't mad, but I was fed up with hearing that to all questions. I would compare it to asking any liberal about why anything bad happens and hearing them say "Bush". I was really working hard that game, and it just irritated me. I was over it later, but you set me off again post game when you kept disagreeing with Gordo and I about what we could have done differently. His plan versus "play cautiously". Then you kept talking about it while we're trying to get the team situated for the next game. I finally got my pick in with 7 seconds to go and was rushing to change spells and masteries. Thus, when we started that first SR, I had reached "a mood". Thus, I began ripping Darius to entertain myself. At some point early-mid game I watched you die while trying to argue with me, and realized you were taking my ranting too seriously. That's when I told you to drop it, shut up, and just play.
I was never mad at you, I just wanted you to drop the generalization of "play cautiously" (and I think you should admit that a guy with Garen and Cho's ult, only with zero CD is OP).
To put this another way, if I drive into Detroit, and stop at your place over on 8 mile, and say, "Hey Cake, how do I get to Tigers Stadium?" You're going to give me detailed directions on how to get there. You're not just going to point in a direction and grunt "that way".
That's what "play cautious" is..."that way".
I also might be grumpy lately due to a chemical dependency issue. So there's that.
Anyway, I agree with the rest of what you said, except for "leader".
I like "guide" better, but even that might be wrong.
I don't think we need a leader. We just need to work together. If Gordo can call out his reads on the map, awesome. You call out who we're focusing. I'll call where I see them, and what I'm doing, etc.
ANY one guy can call out a plan, and the rest of us can throw in our two cents or follow.
As for Gordo, I think he needs to stop split pushing so much. He's the best at spotting lanes to push, but I think he should call those out, and be back on D.
Although, the person who does split push will probably die more than he does because they won't have his escapability...
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
I'm very curious about how other people play Jax. I've never really seen anyone else playing him, and he's by far my favorite champion.
I build attack speed. Some health and attack damage, but only because they come as a side dish on attack speed items. With a full build and full levels I'm hitting the speed cap and can chew up a full-health tower in seven seconds. I'm pretty squishy and useless early game, a good split pusher mid game, and by end game I can take almost anyone on 1v1 and often 2v1. So my style is to play early game trying to farm minion gold as much as I can but also running away a lot (flip-flopping between too bold and too cautious), split-push and run away mid game, and split push without running away late game with a possible chance of occasional gankery. I rarely play near my teammates, because while they are keeping them busy elsewhere is when I push best.
How does that match up to how others play Jax?
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Gordon can split push blind. Meaning, he can just go without knowing enemy positions. Because he has good escape ability. But, his push is weak because he depends on minions to do most of the damage. I think it's better to call out the vulnerable lane and send a carry. The rest of the team put heavy pressure on the opposite side of the map. So, they can respond to the four pushing bottom, or the single pushing top. Send too many top, and bottom does well. Send too many bottom and top does well. If they split the difference, then both our pushes are stopped and our losses, if any, are minimal. But sending a lone carry to push a lane while everyone else does ransom stuff leads to a dead carry.
In the earlier example of a push fizzling out, spreading out and dying. . . Gordon said he may have been the one going top. Which may have been the better call. The momentum was up the middle, and we went far with it. But, a definitive call was not made about what to do at the end. All go top? Some go top, some go bottom? Etc. The teamwork ended and lone wolfing began. If the momentum in middle is dying and top is vulnerable, then everyone should hit it. Make the most of what's available. But as a team. Going top alone, along with some leaving to heal, along with some wanting the carry the momentum further in mid all adds up to fail. Someone make a call, and the rest of the team must follow. . .
And ya, play cautious is general. But, everyone knows what it means. Turtle in our base. Turtle under our turrets. Etc. "Stick together" is ignored. Someone always sees an opportunity where they can be a hero and do more good for the team than what the team is doing right then as a whole. Playing cautious keeps our minds on the same page and puts us all on the same screen with each other. From now on, I'll say "Group up in our base." "Group up under bottom turret" if that sounds better.
I'm very curious about how other people play Jax. I've never really seen anyone else playing him, and he's by far my favorite champion.
I build attack speed. Some health and attack damage, but only because they come as a side dish on attack speed items. With a full build and full levels I'm hitting the speed cap and can chew up a full-health tower in seven seconds. I'm pretty squishy and useless early game, a good split pusher mid game, and by end game I can take almost anyone on 1v1 and often 2v1. So my style is to play early game trying to farm minion gold as much as I can but also running away a lot (flip-flopping between too bold and too cautious), split-push and run away mid game, and split push without running away late game with a possible chance of occasional gankery. I rarely play near my teammates, because while they are keeping them busy elsewhere is when I push best.
How does that match up to how others play Jax?
I don't know peoples' builds. I just know they end up with a jax that hits for a ton, stuns and is tankier than Singed. I've never seen a 'squishy' jax.
When you are using these tactics, who are you playing against? You have said that you and your teammates aren't very good, but you also say you win more than lose. Are you playing bots, or from a pool of like players in custom games?
He had me pushed under my turret with his ranged attack. I had flipped him under my turret as he rushed me, he took 2 hits. Both of us had 2 bars of health.
I sat under my turret to gain XP from a minion wave that just pushed to me. He was watching. I wasn't worried about it because I figured if he attacked me under my turret it would be suicide for him and we both die.
He came in with the minion wave. I was going to flip him when he came to me, hoping that maybe the damage from the flip and the turret hit would kill him and spare me.
He came up, I targeted the flip, and he was able to hit me before my flip took effect and kill me. Turret targeted him, he took a hit. Not dead. He was able to run out of turret range and survive.
Again, both of us level 2.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
Cakedaddy wrote:When you are using these tactics, who are you playing against? You have said that you and your teammates aren't very good, but you also say you win more than lose. Are you playing bots, or from a pool of like players in custom games?
We usually do PvP matches versus ... however that system works when it matches you up with people after you assemble your team. Usually we only lose to groups that are clearly in voice chat together and working well with good tactics. Otherwise they may have more champion kills, but we will win the match.
I can imagine building Jax more tanky, but it just doesn't sound as fun to me. I like to hit fast (and somewhat hard, but mostly above all fast).
I never play Jax against bots. It would be no challenge at all. Bots is for trying out new free champions.
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Lessons learned from last night:
1. Detroit's internet sucks.
2. There are options for our fifth other than Hitler.
3. TPR is playing the wrong character (you should be Yi!)
4. We might need to get a different chat client...
5. Only by combining their efforts can the Cakes take down Teemo.
It was a lot of fun last night. I look forward to doing that again.
What characters does Lagme usually play?
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
The Cakes were breaking up constantly, but that might have been their internet.
"Noid"(?) was dropping connection like crazy, and I think once he dumped Steam, it worked? TPR can give more details there.
You weren't on to see all the issues. You got on after Detroit lost internet, and Noid dropped out of our chat.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
