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Malcolm
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Post by Malcolm »

The mechanical ability required isn't that much.

Now you're bringing in...
not the same as understanding that you can build a PC, teaching yourself the requirements, researching parts, earning the money to buy them, going through the shipping process, assembling the PC while taking the proper precautions for static and heat, installing the proper software, configuring both before and after the OS, and finally benchmarking it.

All this other bullshit.

It's elitist.

That appears to be your new favourite word. I don't know when "elitist" started to mean "not afraid to get my hands dirty doing things" or "learning kinesthetically." If someone wants to run away from new things instead of demystifying them, that's an internal problem causing them issues with external objects. It is not the fault of the object. This is the same bullshit argument I've heard from countless of students that didn't want to learn their fucking mathematics.

"I'm not good with numbers."

Math has been around for millennia, and people still haven't warmed up to it. The reason you're probably not any fucking good at it is because you haven't fucking practiced enough. I used to have that same attitude about music. Took my ass HUNDREDS of hours to match pitch. Six goddamn months. It was not a leisurely six months. Know how I learned? Fucking locked myself in a practice room with a piano and some sheet music. It was unpleasant, it was a huge time sink, and it was exponentially more effort than I've known other people to put into the subject matter for far less impressive results. It took me years to figure out how to harmonize on the fly. Need I go on?

Point being, the psychological problems you have to overcome to increase your potential are internal and apply to you; don't hate on the inanimate object and wait for it to miraculously develop self-awareness and simplify itself.

Stop looking through your prism, and look through a layman's.

Which would be ... you? You don't think I run into non-techies on a daily basis at work?

My analogy is about your attitude. Yes, it is easy to build a PC, but for most people it isn't and yes, their perception counts as an obstacle. If we want the hobby to grow, it's better to help ease people into it than put up a "just fucking do it yourself or you're a moron" wall of elitism.

How about your attitude that PCs are such hideously complex beasts that no "average person" could ever fucking hope to set one up correctly?




Edited By Malcolm on 1411068988
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Post by TPRJones »

Leisher wrote:It's elitist. Stop looking through your prism, and look through a layman's.
On the contrary, I think you are being incredibly elitist about how simple an oil change is.

First you have to know where the oil drain is. Then you have to buy a wrench that will open it. You have to know what to do with the used oil, where the oil filter is located and how to remove it, how to reseat the new oil filter properly to avoid leaks, where to buy a new filter and how to pick which one to buy. Of course you'll also need to know where to put in the new oil and how much to use, not to mention making a decision about which weight of oil to select. And then there's all the other things that should happen as part of the oil change process, such as making sure the brake fluid isn't low and checking to see if the air filter needs changing and all sorts of other stuff someone who's never been under a hood will have no idea how to do.

To someone who knows nothing about cars, changing the oil is absolutely as daunting as building a computer is to someone who knows nothing about computers.

It's elitist. Stop looking through your prism, and look through a layman's.
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Post by TheCatt »

Srsly. I have no fucking clue how to change oil. I wouldn't even try it.

Building a PC from scratch is easy in comparison.
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Stranger
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Post by Stranger »

You guys are making my point exactly! with a console you just go buy the damn thing, buy a game and put the cd in and play the mother fucker!!!

How many single mothers are gonna take the time to learn how to build a PC for their kids just so they can claim to have superior processing power?!?

Point is, you gotta learn whatever you wanna do in life and you will become good at it. We just all happen to be tech enthusiasts, so to us it's easy.

Bottom line, consoles have their place in the market, just not maybe for us.
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Malcolm
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Post by Malcolm »

TheCatt wrote:Srsly. I have no fucking clue how to change oil. I wouldn't even try it.

Building a PC from scratch is easy in comparison.
There are garages that will teach you such things. It's not that hard. After 3 or 4 times, you won't believe you used to pay someone to do it.
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Post by Malcolm »

We just all happen to be tech enthusiasts, so to us it's easy.

At one point, none of us were. Then we decided to start learning about shit that was interesting to us one day, you know, instead of cowering in fear of it like some unknowable angry techno-god.
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Post by Stranger »

The key word there is "interesting" we were interested in learning about it. Alot of people could give two shits about wanting to build a computer. Its just easier to buy a console and forget about it.

Its like i could learn to cook a great rack of ribs, maybe the best ever to be enjoyed, and i can cook some. But i find it just easier to go down to the local bar and order up a rack and i enjoy every last bite of it. But some rib connoisseur would prolly tell me they were far inferior to his fine recipe, but i don't care, i still enjoyed it.
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Post by Leisher »

I don't know when "elitist" started to mean "not afraid to get my hands dirty doing things" or "learning kinesthetically."


It didn't and never has despite you trying to insist it does.

I'm talking about how you're shitting on people for not having your knowledge or interests or even being just like you. (That's mostly Trooper's argument.)

If someone wants to run away from new things instead of demystifying them, that's an internal problem causing them issues with external objects. It is not the fault of the object.


None of this applies to the topic at hand. You're trying to turn a label of your perception into a condemnation of those you look down upon because they might be afraid to enter your world. You're simply proving my point.

"I'm not good with numbers."

Math has been around for millennia, and people still haven't warmed up to it. The reason you're probably not any fucking good at it is because you haven't fucking practiced enough. I used to have that same attitude about music. Took my ass HUNDREDS of hours to match pitch. Six goddamn months. It was not a leisurely six months. Know how I learned? Fucking locked myself in a practice room with a piano and some sheet music. It was unpleasant, it was a huge time sink, and it was exponentially more effort than I've known other people to put into the subject matter for far less impressive results. It took me years to figure out how to harmonize on the fly. Need I go on?

Point being, the psychological problems you have to overcome to increase your potential are internal and apply to you; don't hate on the inanimate object and wait for it to miraculously develop self-awareness and simplify itself.


Who are you talking to? Seriously, all of a sudden it's like you're talking directly to someone, and it's not me. Did I miss something?

Also, there's a reason you spent all that time learning about music, you KNEW YOU COULD and you had the INTEREST.

The majority of people on this planet have no clue they can build their own computers. How would they go about learning that? (When I say this, I mean in terms of them believing they have to buy them at a store like any other appliance.)

People still call consoles "Nintendo" for fuck's sake.

You're trying to add "effort" into a debate on "knowledge" and "interest".

Which would be ... you? You don't think I run into non-techies on a daily basis at work?


Is that a question or a shot?

I'm sure the non-techies at your office don't like dealing with you if this is the attitude you bring. That's not a shot, but a fact of being in IT. We tend to talk down to people without realizing it because we expect them to have knowledge they don't have, and it makes them afraid to ask questions.

How about your attitude that PCs are such hideously complex beasts that no "average person" could ever fucking hope to set one up correctly?


At no point did I say anything like that. Saying that people with little to no technical knowledge don't know they can build a PC, are afraid to build a PC, and/or would have trouble building a PC does not equal or even come close to equaling: "no "average person" could ever fucking hope to set one up correctly".

On the contrary, I think you are being incredibly elitist about how simple an oil change is.

First you have to know where the oil drain is. Then you have to buy a wrench that will open it. You have to know what to do with the used oil, where the oil filter is located and how to remove it, how to reseat the new oil filter properly to avoid leaks, where to buy a new filter and how to pick which one to buy. Of course you'll also need to know where to put in the new oil and how much to use, not to mention making a decision about which weight of oil to select. And then there's all the other things that should happen as part of the oil change process, such as making sure the brake fluid isn't low and checking to see if the air filter needs changing and all sorts of other stuff someone who's never been under a hood will have no idea how to do.

To someone who knows nothing about cars, changing the oil is absolutely as daunting as building a computer is to someone who knows nothing about computers.

It's elitist. Stop looking through your prism, and look through a layman's.


Exactly my point. Thank you.

There are garages that will teach you such things. It's not that hard. After 3 or 4 times, you won't believe you used to pay someone to do it.

At one point, none of us were. Then we decided to start learning about shit that was interesting to us one day, you know, instead of cowering in fear of it like some unknowable angry techno-god.


Society has taught us about garages and mechanics. Home PCs are still kind of new, and a lot of people still rely upon family or friends to repair them. Most people have no interest and part of that is fear. It's human nature. Some of it is laziness. (Exercise and eating healthy is about as straight forward as it gets, yet a whole lot of us don't...)

We all act that way towards a majority of things in life. We're not all master chefs, PC builders, survivalists, expert marksmen, professional drivers, surgeons, dentists, mechanics, etc. We don't all have the same interests or even the same needs to feed our motivation towards learning certain tasks.

But getting back to where this debate began...

Are you guys really trying to say that console gamers are all just jocks and frat boys too stupid and/or lazy to build a machine that they can afford without question and should be aware that they can build whenever they're not having sex with multiple partners because we, as PC gamers, learned to do it while downloading tentacle porn?
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Post by TheCatt »

Malcolm wrote:
TheCatt wrote:Srsly. I have no fucking clue how to change oil. I wouldn't even try it.

Building a PC from scratch is easy in comparison.
There are garages that will teach you such things. It's not that hard. After 3 or 4 times, you won't believe you used to pay someone to do it.
I don't care to learn. My time is way more valuable.
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Post by Cakedaddy »

I used to change my oil and my own brakes because paying someone to do something so easy was crazy and wasteful. I don't do either any more. Back then, I had more time than I did money. Now I have more money than I do time. I'd rather pay someone else to do it because I don't feel like it and have too many other things I want to do. And, taking care of the old oil is a pain in the ass. I have about 2 gallons of it stock piled in my garage right now because I do change the oil in my dirt bike myself. But only because taking it some place to have it done is > doing it myself. But, I have no idea when I will take care of the oil. If paying someone to come to my house to change my oil was an option, I would do it.
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Post by GORDON »

I would say building a PC is quite a few times more difficult than changing oil.... an oil change requires MAYBE 4 specific points of knowledge. Building a PC requires... I don't know.... knowing about 20 or so different things.

I remember the first PC I built 2003ish. I was on the phone with Cake for like an hour in a near panic because there were so damned many parts, and he had built a PC before. But after that first time, no big deal.
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Post by TPRJones »

Leisher wrote:Exactly my point. Thank you.
Ah hah! So you admit I am correct that building a PC is as easy as changing the oil in your car!

I suck!
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Post by TPRJones »

Building a PC requires... I don't know.... knowing about 20 or so different things.

Meh, these days you just need a mobo (probably with the CPU already attached), a drive, some ram, a power supply, and a case to put it in. And it's all plug and play.

Just like someone doing their first oil change will let the guy at Autozone tell them what they need to buy for their car, someone building their first PC can let the guy at Fry's tell them which parts go together.

It's equivalent.




Edited By TPRJones on 1411087198
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Post by GORDON »

Stranger wrote:The key word there is "interesting" we were interested in learning about it. Alot of people could give two shits about wanting to build a computer. Its just easier to buy a console and forget about it.

Its like i could learn to cook a great rack of ribs, maybe the best ever to be enjoyed, and i can cook some. But i find it just easier to go down to the local bar and order up a rack and i enjoy every last bite of it. But some rib connoisseur would prolly tell me they were far inferior to his fine recipe, but i don't care, i still enjoyed it.
Remember

autoexec.bat

and

config.sys?

I started teaching myself DOS 6.0 and Windows 3.1 back in 1993 when I had 4MB RAM and a 486SX25 and I had to make Windows boot itself more efficiently into HIMEM to make room in memory for the games I wanted to play.

No big deal. :-D
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Post by TPRJones »

You had 4MB of RAM?

Luxury!
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Post by GORDON »

TPRJones wrote:
Building a PC requires... I don't know.... knowing about 20 or so different things.
Meh, these days you just need a mobo (probably with the CPU already attached), a drive, some ram, a power supply, and a case to put it in. And it's all plug and play.

Just like someone doing their first oil change will let the guy at Autozone tell them what they need to buy for their car, someone building their first PC can let the guy at Fry's tell them which parts go together.

It's equivalent.
Buuuuuut

You need to know AMD or Intel, get the appropriate mobo... knowing which ram fits that mobo and at what bus speed, which CPU is best utilized, which slot it has for a graphics card, then you have to look at NVidia or ATI, then you need to see which storage format you are working with (do they still make IDE hard drives?), and what speed SATA, and optical drives, and you have to be careful about grounding yourself when you are handling the circuit boards, and a little wisdom tells you to put electrical tape over the mobo mounting posts to avoid accidentally shorting yourself out when the board gets warm and expands, and power supplies, etc etc etc.

An oil change is like, "See that thing?

1. That's the filter, twist it counter clockwise to remove and put a drop of oil around the gasket of the new filter before you put it on for easy removal in the future.

2. See that plug? Unscrew it and let the oil drain out. Make sure you put the plug back in when it is done draining and don't cross the threads.

3. Pour new oil in here. Hit your manual for how much and what kind, just check it against the dip stick to make sure it is actually the correct amount. You read it like *this.*"

You can get into waste oil disposal and shit but that's just details. At this point, the oil is changed. 3 steps.
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Post by GORDON »

TPRJones wrote:You had 4MB of RAM?

Luxury!
HA.

I was wating for that and the "I learned on the 8088 and fuck you" stuff.

The first computer I ever touched was a TRS 80 Model III. I remember the first time I touched the keyboard. 10 print "steve" etc.
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Post by TPRJones »

Heh. This is going to sound like bullshit after that, but seriously I first learned to program in Fortran on punch cards. My father built the first computer at Stephen F. Austin University and I got to play with it at the age of five.

Not very good programs, mind you, but they would run.

You can get into waste oil disposal and shit but that's just details. At this point, the oil is changed. 3 steps.


Still don't see a difference. Sure you list a lot of details about what parts to get, but the same is true of an oil change. In both cases people get help from the person selling them stuff or learn it on their own. Same. Once you have the parts it's just

1. mount mobo (w/ pre-mounted CPU) in case

2. plug in memory and disk drive

3. plug in power supply and boot 'er up

Done. You can get into video and audio cards and shit but that's just details. At this point, the computer works. 3 steps.




Edited By TPRJones on 1411089917
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Malcolm
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Post by Malcolm »

None of this applies to the topic at hand.

Bullshit. I gave a concrete example of something I sucked at and improved. It was because I kept ramming my head against what looked like an impossible wall. Catt's got a fine excuse for not wanting to know how to change his oil. Not worth his time. That's a practical reason. If someone has a similar motive for not building a desktop, then this doesn't apply. If you want to build one and you're holding off because it's too "difficult" and you're not making an attempt to learn how to do so, then I've got zero sympathy. Use your goddamned brain and at least try. One of your friends knows. Or knows someone who does. And if there's one thing a nerd enjoys, it's sharing the infinite amount of wisdom that resides in their own minds.

Learning does not stop until the lid on the coffin is closed.

- Confucius

None of this applies to the topic at hand. You're trying to turn a label of your perception into a condemnation of those you look down upon because they might be afraid to enter your world.

I'm not restricting my argument to the techie world. I gave a musical example. Let's see, more of them ...

1) When I was playing little league, I thought hitting left-handed was hard.
2) I also thought doing pickoffs sucked.
3) I thought writing left-handed was impossible. Until I broke my right arm.
4) I thought figuring musical intervals by ear was hard.
5) I thought figuring out the French language in high school was a bitch.

They weren't things I necessarily enjoyed learning; but they weren't things I was going to let get in my fucking way, either, effort be damned. I had seen motherfuckers less able than myself do all these things.




Edited By Malcolm on 1411102250
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Post by Leisher »

Bullshit. I gave a concrete example of something I sucked at and improved. It was because I kept ramming my head against what looked like an impossible wall. Catt's got a fine excuse for not wanting to know how to change his oil. Not worth his time. That's a practical reason. If someone has a similar motive for not building a desktop, then this doesn't apply. If you want to build one and you're holding off because it's too "difficult" and you're not making an attempt to learn how to do so, then I've got zero sympathy. Use your goddamned brain and at least try. One of your friends knows. Or knows someone who does. And if there's one thing a nerd enjoys, it's sharing the infinite amount of wisdom that resides in their own minds.


But you're ignoring what everyone else is pointing out: There's got to be interest or necessity.

Catt doesn't give 1/10th of a fuck about learning to change his car's oil.

Cake has more money than time.

I'm too lazy to change the oil in my car, but do all the engine work on my mower and weed whacker because it has to be done.

If the interest or necessity isn't there for someone to build a PC, then why would they ever do it? That's before considering if they even have the knowledge to realize it can be done.
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