Today's Moron Champion

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Vince
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Re: Today's Moron Champion

Post by Vince »

Trump or Hillary, either one.
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Malcolm
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Re: Today's Moron Champion

Post by Malcolm »

It applies to any member of Congress as well.
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Leisher
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Re: Today's Moron Champion

Post by Leisher »

OK, Mr. Zookeeper. What should they have done? And just remember, if you get it wrong, and anything bad happens to that kid, the outrage will be 100x what it was for the gorilla. Including you getting fired, the zoo being sued, etc, etc.
Oh no, things that are already happening will still happen? Whatever the fuck will we do!?!

You want to know what they should have done? They should have built the enclosure properly. If a 4 year old can evade your security, you have a weakness. That's the only true answer. Everything else is opinion. That's a fact.

But for giggles... What they should have done after the kid, whom I'm certain will be a future MENSA member and cure cancer, fell in? I don't know and you know what? You don't either. Quick, break down for me the policies in place at the Cincinnati Zoo for this type of event. Now list out the equipment they have available to them in these situations. Finally, give me the percentages on possible outcomes that you should have already calculated in case this situation occurs. Without that info you can't answer the question with 100% certainty either. I'm not judging you negatively for your opinion, just saying that perhaps you shouldn't maintain a George Clooney level of smugness about it.

What's the public reaction if that 4 year old was a 40 year old? I'd bet there would be a hell of a lot less mocking of folks who are pissed the ape is dead.

I honestly feel bad for that 4 year old because this is on him forever. (By the way, if you want to talk bias, I actually have a connection to that family and have received inside info. Not a joke.) Last night when discussing this tragedy with my wife I said, "It'd be interesting to do a follow up on him when he's 17 years old." Someone will do that. Some reporter is going to write an article on him to see what that ape's sacrifice bought us. If that kid turns out bad or dead, it'll cause more negative reactions (Including the inevitable racist ones.).

Should they have saved the 4 year old by killing that ape? As a human being with a soul, I say yes.

Should they have saved the 4 year old by killing that ape? The man educated about animals his whole life understand that gorilla, even if he had good intentions, could have easily killed that boy even if by mistake. So yes, however, I'm very curious about what other options were available. Also, despite Catt's years of ape research, I do think Goodall and the guy who raised the ape should have weight behind their opinions. (See me being all smug from my position of not having a position?)

Should they have saved the 4 year old by killing that ape? The science based part of my brain questions the move. Just from a numbers standpoint there's a LOT of humans versus very few great apes left. We've lost countless human lives over a lot less. Plus, few things scream "Darwinism" more than folks climbing into cages with animals. Again, if it wasn't a kid, we'd be having a very different conversation.
Dude, listen to yourself. He was acting aggressive and that doesn't up his chances of losing his shit with dozens or hundreds of gawking couch potato Steve Irwin fanbois pointing their fingers and cameras at him?
But surely you realize you're doing the same thing? You can't answer the questions I ask of Catt above, yet you're certain you're correct.

People should be pissed off and questioning everything. It's a tragic incident that could and should have been avoided. You expect everyone to question cops, but we can't question a zookeeper? (I'm just questioning your logic. Don't turn this thread into an anti-cop discussion.)
Maybe the public that proclaimed to love the gorilla so much should have backed the fuck away instead of exacerbating the situation.
Could not agree more, and this is on the zoo. They need crowd control in these situations. If a crowd will make things worse then the crowd needs to be removed immediately. Who knows if the removal of the crowd would have calmed the ape down and prevented its death?
After further thought, the only circumstances under which I'd argue against shooting the gorilla all involve Trump falling into the pit instead of the kid. In those cases, I'd go out for a few drinks, come back, maybe fire a dart or two, then see what happens.
Proving my point from earlier about a 4 year old versus a 40 year old.
The "who knows" part of this indicates they needed to shoot the ape. Hate it. They are magnificent creatures. Even if the ape isn't trying to hurt the kid (which I don't think he was), a 450 lb male silverback can snap a kid in two quite unintentionally.
I think there could be a very interesting discussion about nature vs the cost of human lives and/or incidents like this versus programs like lifelong welfare and how it all relates to humans circumventing Darwinism, but can you have those discussions without being branded a monster?
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TheCatt
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Re: Today's Moron Champion

Post by TheCatt »

Leisher wrote:But for giggles... What they should have done after the kid, whom I'm certain will be a future MENSA member and cure cancer, fell in? I don't know and you know what? You don't either.
That's my ENTIRE POINT.

I don't know, and I don't even care to know. The people who are supposed to know the best, did what they thought was best, the end. The enclosure has been there for decades, from what I've heard, and this has never happened. Certainly they will improve it now.
You expect everyone to question cops, but we can't question a zookeeper?
It's a gorilla, not a human. Go sign a PETA petition :)
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Leisher
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Re: Today's Moron Champion

Post by Leisher »

That's my ENTIRE POINT.

I don't know, and I don't even care to know. The people who are supposed to know the best, did what they thought was best, the end. The enclosure has been there for decades, from what I've heard, and this has never happened. Certainly they will improve it now.
Technically, the people who are supposed to know best, didn't.

That enclosure being there for decades is why they'll lose the lawsuit. This has happened elsewhere and yet they made no changes. Other zoos have nets that catch people so they don't fall into enclosures.
It's a gorilla, not a human. Go sign a PETA petition
Fuck PETA.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
Malcolm
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Re: Today's Moron Champion

Post by Malcolm »

I assign more blame to the adults than the zoo. Furthermore, all the "he might NOT have smashed the kid's head on concrete" revisionists can test the theory with your own child and zoo nearest you. Go ahead, show me the 100% reliability of an anxious ape's warm personality and interspecies empathy.
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
TheCatt
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Re: Today's Moron Champion

Post by TheCatt »

I assign no blame to anyone. Shit happens, move along.
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TheCatt
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Re: Today's Moron Champion

Post by TheCatt »

Leisher wrote:
That's my ENTIRE POINT.

I don't know, and I don't even care to know. The people who are supposed to know the best, did what they thought was best, the end. The enclosure has been there for decades, from what I've heard, and this has never happened. Certainly they will improve it now.
Technically, the people who are supposed to know best, didn't.
I'm so confused. One moment you're saying no one can know what would have happened, the next you're saying they should have known better. Which is it?

What they did was fine, and there should be no lawsuit, the end.
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Vince
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Re: Today's Moron Champion

Post by Vince »

TheCatt wrote:I assign no blame to anyone. Shit happens, move along.
I'm with you on this Catt. My wife and I discussed this and she was asking me who was at fault. Sometimes no one is at fault.

Like you said, this exhibit has gone a couple or three decades since it was built without incident. People keep giving the mother grief and I'd say most of those people have never had kids. It is amazing how quickly a kid can end up in a circumstance that seems humanly impossible considering the few seconds your attention was required elsewhere.

I think back to one of the stories about a kid crawling up in a claw game machine into the toy bin of the game in the time it took dad to pay the bill at the checkout in a Chuck-E-Cheese.

All that being said, I have no doubt this family will sue the zoo and probably win a civil judgment before a jury. That is sadly our world now.
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Malcolm
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Re: Today's Moron Champion

Post by Malcolm »

I see suits both ways. That happens when an animal worth thousands of dollars is killed.
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
TheCatt
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Re: Today's Moron Champion

Post by TheCatt »

I'm with Vince, but I'm still optimistic that there will be no lawsuit on either side.
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Vince
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Re: Today's Moron Champion

Post by Vince »

TheCatt wrote:I'm with Vince, but I'm still optimistic that there will be no lawsuit on either side.
I'd like to be optimistic, but people were given a choice in the primaries and we've got Clinton vs Trump.

So my faith in man has been damaged.
"... and then I was forced to walk the Trail of Tears." - Elizabeth Warren
TheCatt
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Re: Today's Moron Champion

Post by TheCatt »

Vince wrote:
TheCatt wrote:I'm with Vince, but I'm still optimistic that there will be no lawsuit on either side.
I'd like to be optimistic, but people were given a choice in the primaries and we've got Clinton vs Trump.

So my faith in man has been damaged.
I have faith in individuals, but not the masses.
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Re: Today's Moron Champion

Post by TheCatt »

It's not me, it's someone else.
Leisher
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Re: Today's Moron Champion

Post by Leisher »

I assign more blame to the adults than the zoo. Furthermore, all the "he might NOT have smashed the kid's head on concrete" revisionists can test the theory with your own child and zoo nearest you. Go ahead, show me the 100% reliability of an anxious ape's warm personality and interspecies empathy.
Explain the logic behind the adults taking blame more than the zoo. As for the rest, I explained my position quite well earlier.
What they did was fine, and there should be no lawsuit, the end.
When did you become a blinders wearing progressive? :D

The family is going to sue the zoo. The feds are already investigating the zoo. People will lose their jobs over this, guaranteed.
I'm so confused. One moment you're saying no one can know what would have happened, the next you're saying they should have known better. Which is it?
When did I say "no one can know what would have happened"? I said they should know percentages. A card player doesn't know what card is coming next, but he should know the odds of getting a card he needs.
Sometimes no one is at fault.

Like you said, this exhibit has gone a couple or three decades since it was built without incident.
Of course there are people to blame. It was easily avoidable, thus someone fucked up.

When a plane crashes, do you know what happens? The FAA reviews the incident and assigns new rules. Those rules apply to every airport and military base. Some foreign countries will even follow the new rules as well. They learn from mistakes made and make sure they do everything they can to prevent them from happening again.

How hard is it for the average zoo manager to watch the news and see folks jumping barricades and watch how other zoos combat it?

And just because nobody was stupid enough to walk into the ape enclosure previously doesn't mean everything was great. That actually really bad logic. Your "perfect" worked for decades fence just had a 4 year old walk right through it. I'd say there's a design flaw that was missed.
People keep giving the mother grief and I'd say most of those people have never had kids. It is amazing how quickly a kid can end up in a circumstance that seems humanly impossible considering the few seconds your attention was required elsewhere.

I think back to one of the stories about a kid crawling up in a claw game machine into the toy bin of the game in the time it took dad to pay the bill at the checkout in a Chuck-E-Cheese.
This I agree with completely. Although, I've heard the mom and the kid had an actual argument about him entering the exhibit. IF true, that would seem to indicate that she had a lapse in believing what her child was capable of doing.
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Malcolm
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Re: Today's Moron Champion

Post by Malcolm »

Explain the logic behind the adults taking blame more than the zoo.
It's their child. As much as everyone bitches about extra-family entities telling a parents how to raise a kid, I'd expect the adults in charge of the child to figure out that going into a zoo is like going into a semi-sentient loaded guns with feet exhibit with an underfunded design budget. Some animals have been domesticated, and some are outclassed by people in terms of bad-ass physical attributes. Gorillas are neither. I'm not an animal rights activist, nor am I a hunter with a wall of horny taxidermy heads. However, the "humor" article catt linked has a biting, cynical truth in it (my favourite kind).
Many experts in the field of ape psychology have since come forward to point out how the child was obviously safer being dragged underwater by 800 pound gorilla, who has spent most of its incarcerated life in cramped conditions while being stared at by noisy humans with flashing camera phones.
The only thing wrong with that statement is the weight is about doubled. Maybe, under ideal conditions he's a reasonable, rational silverback. In the middle of a panicked group of people with an unfamiliar child ain't ideal. The kid makes one wrong move, he's dead. Harambe the Maytyr is not an expert on human anatomy, doesn't know what the fuck is going on, and is probably a bit perplexed why everyone's pointing and hooting at him. In addition, there's thing tiny, shaven, unfamiliar, pseudo-ape-ling thing they're all very interested in. Is it a fucking rag doll toy? Is it a capuchin monkey escaping from a frat prank gone wrong that wandered in? Awesome, and now the zookeepers are bitching at him. I know I love it when my managers yell at me, it puts me in a great mood. With due respect to the various academic experts, fuck them and their opinions in this case. I don't give a chimpanzee's shit about primate gurus who were busy analyzing this from the 20/20 rosy hindsight only attainable in Twitter-ville. There's a unpredictable goliath which is a mental coin toss away from making one motion that might break the kid's neck, and that's on the knife's edge bet the 4 year-old and everyone else acts 100% Fonzie the entire time.
It is amazing how quickly a kid can end up in a circumstance that seems humanly impossible considering the few seconds your attention was required elsewhere.
That does not absolve you from the responsibility or guilt when you fuck up. In this instance, they got lucky the animal didn't have an asshole personality. The zoo keeps their beasts INside the enclosures while you and your family should be focused on staying the fuck OUT. If you can't handle your end of the bargain, don't fucking go to the zoo. You are the first and foremost defense line for your children. Yes, even in a less than perfect setting, including when you're around fences which might not be high enough, YOU are the one who's supposed to make sure they get home safe.
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
TheCatt
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Re: Today's Moron Champion

Post by TheCatt »

Ah, Leisher's plan....

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Vince
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Re: Today's Moron Champion

Post by Vince »

Leisher wrote: When a plane crashes, do you know what happens? The FAA reviews the incident and assigns new rules. Those rules apply to every airport and military base. Some foreign countries will even follow the new rules as well. They learn from mistakes made and make sure they do everything they can to prevent them from happening again.

How hard is it for the average zoo manager to watch the news and see folks jumping barricades and watch how other zoos combat it?
I can agree as a general rule to look and see what's happening in other zoos, but you're (1) assuming they never did and are (2) acting like all exhibits are built the same from one zoo to another. It may very well be that this zoo looked at other zoos and found that other zoos were coving up for bigger flaws than their zoo had.

One assumption you are making that I think we can dispel easily is that they had any notion that something like this was likely. In todays litigious society, all businesses either err on the side of less liability or keep a slush fund for paying off such things. Or have insurance to cover it, and I promise you that the policy holders are looking at other zoos.

I find it rich that you tease someone else about becoming a progressive liberal before taking your argument to the federally regulated FAA.
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Re: Today's Moron Champion

Post by TPRJones »

Plus there's also problems with money. Zoos don't have much of it. Even if they had wanted to change an enclosure they probably wouldn't have the funds to do it unless some rich patron stepped up with the cash.
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Vince
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Re: Today's Moron Champion

Post by Vince »

There's too much we don't know to really make accusations. Leisher was talking about hanging nets. How wide where the moats in the zoos that hung the nets? If these moats are much narrower, the nets actually make an escape route for the primates. Or they are too narrow to be of use.

Do the nets actually stop people that are +trying+ to get into the enclosure, or just a safety precaution for people accidentally falling in? Remember, this kid getting into the moat wasn't an accident. He told his mom he wanted to get into the water.

I think it's fair to want answers to questions. I think people are making a lot of assumptions about things they really aren't sure of.
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