Georgia's new abortion law

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Vince
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Georgia's new abortion law

Postby Vince » Thu May 30, 2019 4:33 pm

GORDON wrote:Source of the post Right or wrong, they think that life begins at conception, and abortion is murder. I don't want to know anyone who condones killing children.

So I see where they're coming from, and they're probably wrong, but they aren't monsters.

Exactly.

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Georgia's new abortion law

Postby Vince » Thu May 30, 2019 4:35 pm

TheCatt wrote:Source of the post
Vince wrote:Source of the post
TheCatt wrote:Source of the post
No, there's no nobility is simple controlling others and telling them what they can and cannot do.

I know! Those damned Yankees trying to tell make property decisions for those plantation owners!

Irony.

Yes, but I don't think you see it.

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Georgia's new abortion law

Postby TheCatt » Thu May 30, 2019 4:41 pm

Vince wrote:Source of the post
TheCatt wrote:Source of the post
Vince wrote:Source of the post
I know! Those damned Yankees trying to tell make property decisions for those plantation owners!

Irony.

Yes, but I don't think you see it.

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Georgia's new abortion law

Postby Vince » Thu May 30, 2019 4:44 pm

Now NBCUniversal is threatening the same. The funny part is that more people agree with the Georgia bill than third term abortions, which the New York bill allows. Yet no one is calling the New York bill "extreme". I'm sorry, if you don't see killing the baby in the birth canal as murder, you're kind of a disgusting human being.

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Georgia's new abortion law

Postby TheCatt » Thu May 30, 2019 4:57 pm

Vince wrote:Source of the post third term abortions, which the New York bill allows. Yet no one is calling the New York bill "extreme". I'm sorry, if you don't see killing the baby in the birth canal as murder, you're kind of a disgusting human being.

Yeah, let's kill the mom instead. Good work, Vince.
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Georgia's new abortion law

Postby Vince » Thu May 30, 2019 4:58 pm

TheCatt wrote:Source of the post
Vince wrote:Source of the post third term abortions, which the New York bill allows. Yet no one is calling the New York bill "extreme". I'm sorry, if you don't see killing the baby in the birth canal as murder, you're kind of a disgusting human being.

Yeah, let's kill the mom instead. Good work, Vince.

How is that killing the mom? I'm talking about the mom in labor and the baby in the birth canal. Like... less than 24 hours from birth.

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Georgia's new abortion law

Postby TheCatt » Thu May 30, 2019 5:00 pm

Vince wrote:Source of the post
TheCatt wrote:Source of the post
Vince wrote:Source of the post third term abortions, which the New York bill allows. Yet no one is calling the New York bill "extreme". I'm sorry, if you don't see killing the baby in the birth canal as murder, you're kind of a disgusting human being.

Yeah, let's kill the mom instead. Good work, Vince.

How is that killing the mom?

Because third term abortions are only legal if the fetus in unviable or the health/life of the mother is at risk.
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Georgia's new abortion law

Postby Vince » Thu May 30, 2019 5:08 pm

TheCatt wrote:Source of the post
Vince wrote:Source of the post
TheCatt wrote:Source of the post
Yeah, let's kill the mom instead. Good work, Vince.

How is that killing the mom?

Because third term abortions are only legal if the fetus in unviable or the health/life of the mother is at risk.

You know what they do when a mother's life is endangered by a pregnancy and the mother is in the third trimester? They do an emergency C-section. Not an abortion. Because it's much faster. The whole "to save the mother" in the third trimester is a lie. Has been for a few decades now.

Edit: Also, the bill reads "health" of the mother. Not "life" of the mother. Any mental duress is now covered as long as a doctor signs off on it.

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Georgia's new abortion law

Postby TheCatt » Thu May 30, 2019 7:19 pm

Vince wrote:Source of the post Edit: Also, the bill reads "health" of the mother. Not "life" of the mother.

Yes, health/life, like I said.

At any rate, anti-abortion people can feel how they feel, but they have no basis for their laws.
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Georgia's new abortion law

Postby GORDON » Thu May 30, 2019 7:46 pm

If you can show them actual proof that the soul isn't formed at conception... Well, you won't end the argument with all of them, but it.would.help.
Fuuuuuuck YOU.

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Georgia's new abortion law

Postby Vince » Fri May 31, 2019 6:12 am

TheCatt wrote:Source of the post
Vince wrote:Source of the post Edit: Also, the bill reads "health" of the mother. Not "life" of the mother.

Yes, health/life, like I said.

At any rate, anti-abortion people can feel how they feel, but they have no basis for their laws.

The canonized Dr. Tiller used to talk about some of the things he had included under "mental health" of his patient he'd used to legally justify third term abortions which included fear of not being able to find a babysitter and being unable to attend a music concert. "Health" and "life" are not the same thing in this area. Especially when you consider the lack of ethics so many of so many of these providers.

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Georgia's new abortion law

Postby TheCatt » Fri May 31, 2019 7:33 am

GORDON wrote:Source of the post If you can show them actual proof that the soul isn't formed at conception... Well, you won't end the argument with all of them, but it.would.help.

Why don't they prove that souls exist, first?

Vince wrote:Source of the post Especially when you consider the lack of ethics so many of so many of these providers.

If you're just going to argue extremes and hyperbole, then let's just get it out there that all anti-abortionists are murderers who would bomb or kill every abortion providing doctor on the planet.
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Georgia's new abortion law

Postby Vince » Fri May 31, 2019 8:08 am

TheCatt wrote:If you're just going to argue extremes and hyperbole, then let's just get it out there that all anti-abortionists are murderers who would bomb or kill every abortion providing doctor on the planet.

Are you going to argue that abortion providers are on the upper end of the ethics scale of health care? I'm not even talking the ethics of the abortion itself. I mean ordinary every day medical ethics.

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Georgia's new abortion law

Postby TheCatt » Fri May 31, 2019 8:59 am

Vince wrote:Source of the post
TheCatt wrote:If you're just going to argue extremes and hyperbole, then let's just get it out there that all anti-abortionists are murderers who would bomb or kill every abortion providing doctor on the planet.

Are you going to argue that abortion providers are on the upper end of the ethics scale of health care? I'm not even talking the ethics of the abortion itself. I mean ordinary every day medical ethics.

Who should I compare them to? The Westboro Baptist Church? The leaders of the Catholic church?

Perhaps their ethics are "take care of the patient," or they have various overpopulation concerns, or firsthand experience with our foster system. Who knows. Maybe they really care about the well-being of the mother?
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Georgia's new abortion law

Postby Vince » Fri May 31, 2019 9:58 am

TheCatt wrote:Who should I compare them to? The Westboro Baptist Church? The leaders of the Catholic church?

Perhaps their ethics are "take care of the patient," or they have various overpopulation concerns, or firsthand experience with our foster system. Who knows. Maybe they really care about the well-being of the mother?

First, allow me to sincerely apologize for my approach to you. It just occurred to me this morning that your approach may not be so much antagonistic as much as simply your not being exposed to some of the same stories I have been as someone that's pro-life. I know the guy that co-wrote Gosnell: The Untold Story of America's Most Prolific Serial Killer leaned pro-choice going into covering that case. He described himself as mostly abortion agnostic. He said when he went to cover the trial itself to take notes, there was a section for the press in the courtroom and there was one other reporter in there with him. Within a couple of days, this writer was the only one there in the press pool.

It seems in many cases that supporting abortion has become more of a litmus test for caring about women's health than actually caring about women's health. The abortion business aside, Gosnell was a horrific physician. His practice put the welfare of these women at risk. One died. He was not investigated before because of political reasons. What he was doing only came to light because the drug enforcement arm of the local police were tipped off that he was illegally dispensing drugs. Some of those investigating officers are still in counseling dealing with some of the stuff they found there.

So when I was asking was how you'd rank the ethics of the abortion providers over-all with the ethics of other doctors.

I found this site while we were discussing these things.

I checked a few clinics. Most have some pretty bad health code violations. Here's one from Chapel Hill.

* Staff failed to disinfect the vaginal probe for the ultrasound machine after each use.
* Staff failed to sanitize the procedure room floors. They do not mop the floors between patients. Inspection revealed there was rust and dirt stains on the floor at the foot and head of the exam table. According to staff, the floors are mopped three times a week and no mopping is done on Fridays when procedures are completed. Mopping is done only by the contract janitorial staff
* The clinic failed to obtain a proper informed consent – the staff neglected to inform the patients whether or not the physician has admitting privileges at a hospital for continuity of care.
* Staff failed to provide instructions for post-procedure emergencies in 100% of the charts reviewed. (Holy crap!)
* Two of the four physicians performing procedures did not have TB testing.
* Clinic staff failed to properly document the administration of medication. Further review revealed that there is no policy that specified documentation requirements for medication administration.
* Medications were being administered by non-licensed staff (health center coordinator).

Amazingly, the clinic in Memphis looked pretty good. If I recall, the worst thing they were cited for was not having tested a smoke detector. I saw no major health violations with that one.

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Georgia's new abortion law

Postby TheCatt » Fri May 31, 2019 10:18 am

Shitty medical procedures happen everywhere. Here's the NY Times discussing pediatric heart surgeries at UNC, a very well respected hospital. (Or, maybe previously well respected)

Children dying. Not procedural issues, actual deaths. Sometimes due to laziness and incompetence. Hiding data about their surgeries. So no, I'm not going to get riled up about sanitation issues.

At the end of the day, I don't want people to have abortions. I'm glad I've never had to make a decision about it. But, it's their choice, their decision, and their lives to live with the consequences.
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Georgia's new abortion law

Postby Leisher » Fri May 31, 2019 10:58 am

TheCatt wrote:Source of the post But, it's her choice, her decision, and their lives to live with the consequences.


Fixed that for you.
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Georgia's new abortion law

Postby TheCatt » Fri May 31, 2019 11:18 am

Leisher wrote:Source of the post
TheCatt wrote:Source of the post But, it's her choice, her decision, and their lives to live with the consequences.


Fixed that for you.

I'm fine with that, too.
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Georgia's new abortion law

Postby Vince » Fri May 31, 2019 12:29 pm

TheCatt wrote:Children dying. Not procedural issues, actual deaths. Sometimes due to laziness and incompetence. Hiding data about their surgeries. So no, I'm not going to get riled up about sanitation issues.

This kind of goes back to Gordo's observation about not being able to see things from the perspective of the opposition. In the mind of the pro-lifer, every one of the proceedures ended in the child dying.

TheCatt wrote:At the end of the day, I don't want people to have abortions. I'm glad I've never had to make a decision about it.

I'll leave it at this statement and say on this we agree.

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Georgia's new abortion law

Postby Leisher » Fri May 31, 2019 2:32 pm

TheCatt wrote:Source of the post
Leisher wrote:Source of the post
TheCatt wrote:Source of the post But, it's her choice, her decision, and their lives to live with the consequences.


Fixed that for you.

I'm fine with that, too.


I'm not, but that's been covered and probably a separate issue from the "is this life/murder" argument.
“Nothing quite brings out the zest for life in a person like the thought of their impending death”
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