Don't encourage suicide

[Leisher]

Yeah but you can't declare that she kinda committed a crime so saying the truth is somewhere in the middle is...

I'm not saying she kinda committed a crime. She committed a crime. She talked a vulnerable person into suicide and didn't notify anyone of his impending doom.

And this repeated comparison to Manson... I don't think it applies. Jim Jones didn't force it down anyone's throat either, yet no one would claim he wasn't a cult leader. Are you saying this chick was the leader of a 1-person cult?

So she needed to talk more people into suicide for it to be a crime? For her to be compared to Manson and Jim Jones? This chick didn't force the guy to turn on the car and sit in it, but she certainly put him there with her words.

What's the body count need to be before you're ok with her being found guilty?

I don't like the slippery-slope possibilities, and yeah, peeps say HA INVALID LOGIC YOUR ARGUMENT IS MEANINGLESS, but that doesn't mean one piece of shit never gets stacked on another piece of shit. I've never liked the "you pressed the keyboard keys in an illegal order now you're going to jail" laws.

Again, I don't disagree with you on the slippery slope logic and yada yada yada, however I don't understand why you are arguing that she had no responsibility OR shouldn't suffer any punishment at all. Is it strictly a "ME ME ME" outlook? You're just so concerned about that slope that fuck the poor bastard who is now dead and anyone else she might later tempt?

If you tell your kid every day that he's a dumb piece of shit, aren't YOU responsible even a little bit if that comes true? If you tell your little girl that she's fat and ugly, aren't YOU responsible when she has self image issues? If you constantly call your wife a bitch, don't you bear some responsibility when she leaves you?

Yet somehow if you're manipulative enough to talk a vulnerable person into suicide it shouldn't be a crime? You know, unless the body count is high enough...?

[GORDON]

She is a piece of shit.

He was weak.

She never laid a hand on him.

In my mind he has way more responsibility for his actions than she has for his actions. She isn't a Jedi.

[Leisher]

She isn't a Jedi.

You have no proof of that.

[GORDON]

Point.

[Vince]

Back to the bitch, is it truly ok to let her off because you're afraid of "what might happen". Does the young man not deserve any justice? Do you really want to stand on the "fuck him, this is about me" hill?

Actually, I think there's a good chance he'd never have made it to old age even if she hadn't done this. Stable people don't let evil people talk them into suicide. And the Manson comparison isn't valid. Mason convinced people to kill other people. Not themselves. And Jim Jones was slightly different in that they also killed innocent children that were not making the choice for themselves.

[Malcolm]

When does someone's mental capacity jump from "innocent child" to "weak adult that should've known better?"

[GORDON]

14.

[Leisher]

Actually, I think there's a good chance he'd never have made it to old age even if she hadn't done this.

You have absolutely zero proof he wouldn't have lived to old age. He was a fucking kid going through some shit. You know how many people think about suicide, but don't go through with it? Either they talk themselves down, others talk them down, or they try and fail. Condemning him to death just fits your argument.

Stable people don't let evil people talk them into suicide.

Bullshit. First of all, define stable. You believe yourself to be stable, but you're a religious man (right?) which means other non-religious folks would say you're not stable, and perhaps vice versa. Meanwhile, people who are married who say unmarried folks aren't stable and vice versa. Ditto for people with kids. Trump voters vs non-Trump voters. Dems/Repubs. People who served in the service vs non. Etc.

Secondly, I'll give you that extenuating circumstances might be involved in some cases, but history is absolutely chock full of people who committed suicide (or a million other things) at the command of another. Were they all unstable or did their reality tell them to trust the person giving the command?

Was I unstable when I signed to offer up my life in service to my country? Many will say no, others will say yes. I could easily find the logic in both arguments.

And the Manson comparison isn't valid. Mason convinced people to kill other people. Not themselves.

Manson is completely valid. He talked other people into doing things they wouldn't normally do and never lifted a finger himself. It's the same thing as what went on here only the crime was different. Even though the lives they took weren't their own, they were still throwing their own lives away.

And Jim Jones was slightly different in that they also killed innocent children that were not making the choice for themselves.

And the adults still took their own lives. You're really not putting up a good defense here.

And how about Heaven's Gate? I noticed you skipped them completely.

And Koresh? Although he's the same as Jim Jones.

Also, one important thing you guys are ignoring is that this wasn't a single night of texting. Like any brainwashing or coercion there was time involved in developing a relationship. Like how we all ended up married...Ha. Plus, she was found guilty of involuntary manslaughter. That's not murder.

Let's go to the map:

Three elements must be satisfied in order for someone to be found guilty of involuntary manslaughter:

1. Someone was killed as a result of the defendant's actions.
2. The act either was inherently dangerous to others or done with reckless disregard for human life.
3. The defendant knew or should have known his or her conduct was a threat to the lives of others.

1. Yep.
2. Yep.
3. Yep.

If there is a slippery slope here, this is pretty much at the top and far enough back from the edge that you can't look down.

[Vince]

Stable people don't let evil people talk them into suicide.

Bullshit. First of all, define stable. You believe yourself to be stable, but you're a religious man (right?) which means other non-religious folks would say you're not stable, and perhaps vice versa. Meanwhile, people who are married who say unmarried folks aren't stable and vice versa. Ditto for people with kids. Trump voters vs non-Trump voters. Dems/Repubs. People who served in the service vs non. Etc.

Secondly, I'll give you that extenuating circumstances might be involved in some cases, but history is absolutely chock full of people who committed suicide (or a million other things) at the command of another. Were they all unstable or did their reality tell them to trust the person giving the command?

They were all unstable. Yes. I am open to being convinced otherwise if you can name someone who wasn't unstable that killed themselves.

[Leisher]

They were all unstable. Yes. I am open to being convinced otherwise if you can name someone who wasn't unstable that killed themselves.

Every soldier that died fighting for this country? And can we include those bad ass motherfuckers in feudal China that would commit suicide before battle just to scare their enemies? (True story. Google it.)

Every person that threw their life away saving someone else.

Every person who somehow scammed insurance companies by committing suicide, but having the death ruled an accident so their families would be cared for.

Every astronaut that died in the line of duty who all had a reasonable expectation of death.

And going to your deleted (but not really...you have to checkmark the box to delete it permanently) "weak minds" comment, remember what Jesse Ventura said, "Religion is a crutch for the weak minded". I point that out because it proves my point about who really gets to determine what is stable and not stable.

[Vince]

Dying trying to do something is not the same as dying for nothing. To say a soldier that died for something is the same as a suicide victim is a pretty shitty opinion of our vets. I don't place people that die sky diving or driving to the store in the same category as a suicide victim. The guy running into the burning building to save someone and dies is not dying for nothing.

Sure the astronauts had a reasonable expectation of death. That's a far cry from the certain expectation of death of a suicide victim. I'd suspect the moon shot would have never happened had the fatality rate been 100% for every rocket launch. Astronauts would have been in short supply.

And I'm fine with you making your case against religion by quoting Jesse Ventura. You might want to see if Alex Jones and Art Bell also made some quotes you can throw in there.

[GORDON]

If he had turned off his phone, he'd have lived forever.

[Vince]

I will concede the charges for not notifying authorities and also if she'd provided any material support for the suicide, as I am against doctor assisted suicide as well.

As an aside, did anyone else notice that the proportions for her head and face were that of every comic book villain with the ability to mind control?

[GORDON]

Oh snap.

[Leisher]

Dying trying to do something is not the same as dying for nothing.

To be fair, you're taking us way off topic, and it's still a matter of opinion. You might think suicide is a sin, but others consider it a matter of honor (like the Japanese). It's a cultural perspective. Hell, people among the Christian faith don't even agree. Just doing light research I found Christian sites saying it's a sin, but you'd be forgiven if you were already a child of God; and other Christian sites saying God gives life, and you have no authority to choose when to end it. (That would include sacrificing yourself to save others.)

And again, it's all perspective. Ask certain Muslims and they'll claim there is no greater way to die and heaven awaits. We say they're dying for nothing, they disagree.

So who is right?

End of the day, you have to ask if that kid would be alive if it wasn't for that girl, and the answer is YES. That's why she was found guilty in a court of law. Again, guilty of involuntary manslaughter, the specifics of which I've already posted.

Look, even Gordon agrees:

If he had turned off his phone, he'd have lived forever.

To say a soldier that died for something is the same as a suicide victim is a pretty shitty opinion of our vets.

I went and asked a vet if I was ok with what I said and I was... Turns out, I have a pretty fucking high opinion of our vets.

Sure the astronauts had a reasonable expectation of death. That's a far cry from the certain expectation of death of a suicide victim. I'd suspect the moon shot would have never happened had the fatality rate been 100% for every rocket launch. Astronauts would have been in short supply.

You know how many shipwrecks there have been? Yet those sailors kept lining up to sail. Astronauts would have too. I certainly would have gone to space when I was single and childless even if it meant not coming home.

And I'm fine with you making your case against religion by quoting Jesse Ventura. You might want to see if Alex Jones and Art Bell also made some quotes you can throw in there.

I don't know who Art Bell is and I know nothing about Alex Jones except that Troy hates him, so I have absolutely no idea what your intent with this statement is, but I assume it's to imply Ventura's opinion means nothing. Why is your opinion more valid than his?

I will concede the charges for not notifying authorities and also if she'd provided any material support for the suicide, as I am against doctor assisted suicide as well.

So she's guilty of not calling the authorities, but when he said he was having second thoughts and she talked him back into it, she bears no responsibility for that? Weird.

Also, I'm actually ok with doctor assisted suicide. Why should a person have the right to throw their life away to save someone else, while someone else has no right to end their suffering?

It's all perspective and opinion. It's an interesting discussion, but pointless to go on forever about. So I'll just keep pointing to the law and how the kid is dead because of the woman. I've already said I agree with that slippery slope, but this one isn't the one we should be concerned about. As unpopular as it would be, the guy getting locked up for writing pedo porn, that was far, far, far more of a violation of freedom of speech and whatnot.

[Vince]

Sure the astronauts had a reasonable expectation of death. That's a far cry from the certain expectation of death of a suicide victim. I'd suspect the moon shot would have never happened had the fatality rate been 100% for every rocket launch. Astronauts would have been in short supply.

You know how many shipwrecks there have been? Yet those sailors kept lining up to sail. Astronauts would have too. I certainly would have gone to space when I was single and childless even if it meant not coming home.

Then by your own logic, whoever recruited you and launched you into space should be tried for murder (or manslaughter or whatever they got Dr. Girlfriend on). Along with all Army and Marine and police and firefighter recruiters. You can't claim their mindsets are the same and claim one was a crime victim and all the others were not.

I can't understand how you can be for Doctor assisted suicide and for this girl's conviction. She's just a suicide doctor that's like a personal trainer that keeps you going when you're just ready to give up

[Leisher]

Then by your own logic, whoever recruited you and launched you into space should be tried for murder (or manslaughter or whatever they got Dr. Girlfriend on). Along with all Army and Marine and police and firefighter recruiters. You can't claim their mindsets are the same and claim one was a crime victim and all the others were not.

If you ignore everything I have said, you're right! However, I've already stated multiple times that all cases have different circumstances. You're the one who made broad generalizations about people who commit suicide.

I can't understand how you can be for Doctor assisted suicide and for this girl's conviction. She's just a suicide doctor that's like a personal trainer that keeps you going when you're just ready to give up

Because there's zero difference between a depressed teenager having second thoughts about suicide and a terminally ill patient in constant pain...

[Vince]

Then by your own logic, whoever recruited you and launched you into space should be tried for murder (or manslaughter or whatever they got Dr. Girlfriend on). Along with all Army and Marine and police and firefighter recruiters. You can't claim their mindsets are the same and claim one was a crime victim and all the others were not.

If you ignore everything I have said, you're right! However, I've already stated multiple times that all cases have different circumstances. You're the one who made broad generalizations about people who commit suicide.

And there-in lies my unease with the court case. I don't want to have to worry about how a DA will view my specific circumstance to know if a law has been broken. I prefer justice be a little less... subjective.

[GORDON]

I need to stop telling people to GFY, because when Leisher inevitably dies from severe rectal trauma from his ever-increasing dildo sizes, forensics will find me telling him to GFY and then it's my fault.

[Vince]

Laws are passed with criteria to see if a person met conditions to have broken that law. I have a hard time believing that the manslaughter statute covers this as written. If the court is deciding that this law will cover this action even though that's not what this law says, I don't think that's good. It will be interesting to see where this goes on appeals. All this said acknowledging that I haven't read that actual statute for the state.