Black Lives Matter

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Leisher
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Black Lives Matter

Post by Leisher »

GORDON wrote: Holy moly. You think I'm not discussing this calmly and rationally? I'm out. If you're reading my posts as me being shrill, then we aren't communicating and there's no point in continuing.
Calmly? Yes.

Rationally? Not really, but that does not equal shrill or anything of the sort. I simply think your bias is clouding your normal judgement, but in no way do I think you're acting like an idiot, hyperventilating while typing, or any other such behavior.

For example:
The fact that you don't agree that the folks with the power and authority to kill you in the street shouldn't be better than the average person is kind of astounding to me.
It's rational to completely ignore all the points I've made and give me a stance I never took? I don't think so.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
GORDON
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Black Lives Matter

Post by GORDON »

You keep bringing up corporate conduct and military conduct and changing the subject.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
Leisher
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Black Lives Matter

Post by Leisher »

I'm making comparisons. Your stance is the polar opposite of stances you take elsewhere. The reason I bring up the military is to point out your bias towards cops, while you turn a blind eye to negative stories relating to the military.

I'm not judging you for that, btw. I'm also biased in that regard. Just trying to get you to see your bias against cops.

You must admit you have a drinking problem before you can cure it.

And I don't know what you mean with corporate conduct.
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
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Cakedaddy
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Black Lives Matter

Post by Cakedaddy »

I've not had good access to this board, and didn't want to type on my phone. . .

I said to get to know some police officers because until you've heard their stories and seen what they deal with, you don't have all the info you need to make an educated assessment. That's not calling you stupid. That's saying you may not have all the info. I don't either. But I believe I've had more exposure to police than you.

Leisher (and I was going to as well) has compared military misdeeds to police misdeeds much like you are asking me to get to know more black people. Comparing things isn't bad.

I know a lot of black people, but we NEVER discussed getting pulled over. Just never came up. I will say this though. On two occasions, I've been pulled over where the police are approaching my car hugging the fending (walking so close to my car they are rubbing it and trying to create as narrow a profile as they can) with their hands on their holstered weapon. Both times I thought "Holy shit. This guys afraid of me." and I put my hands on the steering wheel at 10 and 2. It was to put him at ease. Not as a sign of compliance or anything. They ask for my info and and I let them know where it was before reaching for it. I'm not afraid of being shot. I want him to feel ok with what he's doing. He doesn't know me. Know my intentions. And there are plenty of people that would rather shoot him than get a ticket or go to jail. I understand that and respect that and want him to feel safe. I could have gone all militant on them. But I didn't see the point. Why escalate? In the first instance, my vehicle, and I guess myself, fit the description of a vehicle that just left a robbery. The second incident, my license plate was covered with snow, which isn't allowed, obviously. But also, my vehicle (2016 F150) is a high theft vehicle. So, I could have just stolen it, or something. In both cases, I was in shitty areas. Shitty areas where the police have problems with people shooting at them, trying to run them over with cars, etc. They are attacked all the time. To them, it's a war zone, and they are the enemy. But for them to be cautious, demand compliance while the situation is worked through, etc, is asking too much of some people. Do I believe in "DWB", sure. Is it profiling? Sure. But honestly, call me racist, but I don't have a problem with that. I support profiling in airports too. I would also support profiling on Wall Street. I would support profiling anywhere a specific race/religion/sex/whatever commits the most crimes in a specific area. Is it wrong? Maybe. But it's also effective.

Another point of perspective. Back when tasers were 'over used'. Everyone bitching about police using tasers. About this time, my cousin, a police officer in Fort Meyers Florida was shot in the face and killed while addressing a domestic dispute. The boyfriend wanted to show the girl how much he loved her by committing suicide by cop. He killed my cousin to make sure it happened. My cousin was the type of police officer that . . . refused to see bad in anyone. Became a police officer to help people, one person at a time. It cost him his life. And honestly, I'm not sure he would have changed his ways even knowing it was going to kill him one day. So, he was one of the good ones. The model police office you want all of them to be. And he didn't last long. I'm pretty sure he was in his late 20's. 2 kids and a wife. I'm not advocating all cops being bad because good ones get killed. I'm saying that what they do is very dangerous and not looking at every situation as a potentially deadly one could cost you your life. I wish he'd opened with a taser.

Last point of perspective, I was 'fortunate' enough to spend about 3 months in a county prison installing a video conference system throughout the holding areas. Watching how the officers had to interact with the prisoners. How the prisoners treated the guards, their living quarters, etc. These were the shittiest people (the prisoners) that society can produce. All clustered together and on display for me. Knowing that these are the people the police have to deal with on a daily basis (in jail and on the streets). . . I felt sorry for them, because that really sucks. But felt even more respect for them knowing they don't have to. They choose to do this for us.

So when people start with the "All cops are bad" bullshit. Well, fuck you. No they aren't. And when people want to post only negative stuff about them. Well, fuck you too, because it's not all negative. Should the negative get press and attention? Absolutely. It shouldn't happen and should be corrected and punished. But an entire thread dedicated to how shitty police are is nothing more than an attempt to shit on those that put themselves in harms way, for us, every day. Gordon, you've been clear that you don't like police. At no point have you said "The bad police". You group them all together because they all have each other's backs. Sure that happens. But they don't all do it. And the fact that you've never acknowledged that and act like all police are bad astounds me. And if that's NOT how you feel, then I apologize for misinterpreting your statements. But I've never seen you post one good thing about them.

And the military is brought up because they do the exact same stuff that police do. Kill when they shouldn't. Cover up their mistakes. Over use their authority. But, they get a thread dedicated to how awesome they are. Never a single post about their mistakes or wrong doings.

So forgive me if I feel a bit jaded against threads and topics that bash police when I've witnessed first hand the sacrifices they make/are willing to make every day. Police do FAR more good than harm.

A discussion about corruption and misuse of power would always be welcome. It NEEDS to be addressed. But to disrespect all police officers as a whole because of the actions of a few is wrong and makes people sound stupid. That other thread wasn't an honest discussion about an issue. It was a daily announcement that all police are shit.

And bringing up the military as a comparison isn't changing the subject. It's pointing out a hypocrisy. Instead of saying "Police suck but Marines are awesome", we can say "Armed Americans in organized forces are awesome but also make mistakes and have bad people among them". ANY discussion you have about how awesome or bad police are can also be had about the military. They both have the same issues.

TLDR: Don't tell me all cops are bad. That just makes you sound stupid, and frankly, pisses me off because of personal experiences. Now lets have a discussion about what IS wrong and how it could be addressed.

To address your core: Yes, armed personnel, of all types of service, should be held to higher standards. But I also believe they should enjoy some fringe benefits. Honestly, if police want to not write a ticket for another police officer, I don't have a problem with that. I would say I'm about 50/50 for being let off myself. Last three times I've been pulled over for speeding, it was with a warning. So I don't have a problem if they let other police officers off. Regarding you're police friend, I'm kind of surprised you don't like police because she gets to speed and doesn't want other people to have guns. If you were in Iraq, wouldn't you also want to be the only one with a gun? Do I agree? Nope. But I understand and respect her opinion. I don't agree with the punishment being doubled. On what grounds? Probably the same grounds that I think they should enjoy fringe benefits, like getting to speed. I'll add, safely. Sometimes you can go 5, 10, even 20 over the limit, safely. We ALL know that.
thibodeaux
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Black Lives Matter

Post by thibodeaux »

Occam's' razor says that the most likely explanation for blacks getting pulled over more is...they're worse drivers. Although...I guess that would mean Asian were pulled over even more...

Yeah must be racism.
Vince
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Black Lives Matter

Post by Vince »

I'm okay with reasonable speeding among cops. I remember talking to one that said that the speeding thing always annoyed him before he joined the force. A couple of months in he was driving down the interstate in Memphis at the speed limit and looked in the rear-view mirror and saw a parade of cars as far as he could see because no one was willing to pass him. At that point he decided maybe 65 in a 55 wasn't a horrible idea.

As far as non-lethal options I'm okay with those as options, but becoming a police officer doesn't remove your right to defend yourself. Rodney King only had non-lethal options used on him. He shrugged off 2 hits with tazers and charged the officers before they swarmed him and brought out the sticks.
"... and then I was forced to walk the Trail of Tears." - Elizabeth Warren
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