Today in racism

[Leisher]

Winning pageants as there's disease, civil war, starvation, etc. throughout Africa?

I don't have much data, but I know at least some 3rd world countries care A LOT about pageants for whatever reason. Like those people become celebrities, instead of like here in America.

Kind of says something about them when pageants are more important than not being a third world country.

That they were rejecting white entries into places they weren't born + raised.

What? When did any of that enter the conversation?

I simply pointed out that every pageant winner being black seems like bullshit and an apparent political message.

[TheCatt]

Kind of says something about them when pageants are more important than not being a third world country.

I think it says something about despair.

What? When did any of that enter the conversation?

When I brought it up?

I simply pointed out that every pageant winner being black seems like bullshit and an apparent political message.

It might be. But I mean, when was the last time you cared about a pageant?

[Leisher]

I think it says something about despair.

Despair is causing by having your priorities in the wrong place?

When I brought it up?

But you did so in response to my statement that had nothing to do with it. Why are you crackers always trying to play the race card?

It might be. But I mean, when was the last time you cared about a pageant?

There's probably a .00000001% chance that this is just a coincidence. Also, I've never cared about pageants, still don't. I think that is why they can do something like this without people really giving a fuck.

[TheCatt]

Miss America, Miss Teen USA, Miss USA, and Miss Universe are all black.

Gorgeous women come in all colors, but it's hard to imagine that doesn't occur without some agenda.

Add Miss World

Subtract Miss America

[Leisher]

Subtract Miss America

Go Whitey!

In all seriousness, she did a fucking experiment on stage. That's kind of awesome.

[TheCatt]

Woman hits 14 yo with car because the girl was Mexican

Police also said Poole admitted to hitting the girl intentionally and tried to kill her because she was 'Mexican.' She went on to make other derogatory statements about Latinos.

[Leisher]

Is she more full of hate or crazy?

[GORDON]

In jail and community rallying around victim.

[Leisher]

(Conversation from the Watchmen thread moved here...)

So you see this as an esthetics thing and not racism? "It's not that they are black, it's just because they aren't white"

Is the natural inclination to feel more comfortable around people who look like you racism? I tend to believe it is NOT. When I talk about racism, I typically believe it contains malicious intent based upon predetermined negative beliefs about someone based on the color of their skin. I mean, is it racism when someone prejudges someone for a predetermined positive belief about someone based on the color of their skin?

But, to some degree, it's true (That they are held back).

To some degree it IS true, but not everywhere. Not even everywhere in this country.

I think Morgan, Cosby, etc are saying "You can get past it", not that it doesn't exist. Rather than say "Things didn't work out, but it wasn't your fault", they are saying "It didn't work out, but you can overcome". At least that's my interpretation. If they actually believe there is nothing holding the black man back, I think they're out of touch.

Make yourself indispensable and nobody can ignore you. Doesn't matter what you look like. Also, I could argue that these days there is racism holding back the white man too, just in different areas. For example: The white rappers who have broken through had to be AMAZING. Meanwhile, half the black folks in this country have rap albums. Are you white and playing sports? Odds are you're going to be stereotyped pretty heavily, even treated like a second class citizen because people prejudge you based on your skin color. YouTube is filled with videos showcasing this. But yeah, whitey certainly has a leg up in the business world because they're so entrenched.

Another tidbit to prove my point is that you cannot say black people don't have an advantage in Hollywood. They number of black people in movies and TVs show is HIGHER than their actual population percentage. Meanwhile, Latinos are grossly underrepresented. Notice how that never gets discussed? Interesting, no?

But I think "You do it too" is as unhealthy as giving people an out with "They are holding you down".

It's absolutely unhealthy when used as a justification. It is NOT unhealthy when used to point out hypocrisy.

The whole "It's becoming harder to be a white man in America" just makes people sound stupid. There is no doubt in my mind that we (our generation of white men) still have the advantage in America. Sure, we are losing some of it. But just because you don't have ALL of the advantages (as we did in the past) won't make me feel sorry for you. But I'm also not saying we should lose rights because we are white men. That's racist/sexist. I'm capable of admitting that I've had an advantage because of past (fairly recent racist policies) that gave me those advantages. Are things different from what they were 50 years ago? Tremendously. Has all of that oppression been filtered out of the system? Not by a long shot. Can you measure the amount of advantage I have to determine what I would owe those held back? Not in a million years. Well, maybe in a million years, but then it would be irrelevant.

To be fair, your entire paragraph is spent proving that first sentence...

And I would say that the frustration logical people have isn't losing their "advantage" (properly in quotes), it's gaining "disadvantage". Have white people lost opportunities because of the color of their skin? Yes, and that isn't equality or progress, it's racism. No policy, rules, decisions, etc. should have even the slightest bit of relation to the color of one's skin UNLESS it absolutely requires it. In which case, then people should stop calling those things racist.

For example, if I hire a person that looks Asian to head up my company's new Asian division...that's not racist. Even if you want to say it is, stop pretending the Asian world ISN'T racist. Point being, it makes more sense to hire that guy for business reasons than to hire someone else for diversity reasons.

Have and are black people held back? Yup.

In areas, absolutely.

More than white people? Yup, but the scales are balancing and there are plenty of instances where white people are held back for being white.

Thank you for agreeing.

Do I believe in white privilege? Absolutely.

There is also black privilege.

But as long as there are black people saying white people owe them something, there will be white people denying that the past has any bearing on today and that they are the ones being held back. It just perpetuates racism.

You really lose me here. You don't see how one group of people claiming they're owed something also perpetuates racism? Your statement makes it ok for black people to never move on, but not for white people, and then you blame white people for continuing racism. WTF? White people aren't the only racists! Black people are just as racist, if not more so. Try spending your life being told purple people are why you live in poverty and in high crime areas, then see if you grow up with a healthy respect for the rights of purple people.

Any white man that blames the black man for their disparity can't take responsibility for their own actions.

And there are a lot of black leaders and people who will tell you that you can reverse the races in that sentence and it's still accurate. Isn't it fair to say that ANYONE who blames someone else for their problems is having problems accepting any responsibility for their situation?

[Cakedaddy]

I'd like to start by saying: Quit assuming I'm anti white, or pro black. Because I'm not. I think you'll read some of my statements different with that understanding.

To some degree it IS true, but not everywhere. Not even everywhere in this country.

I literally said "To some degree". Not "In all cases".

When I talk about racism, I typically believe it contains malicious intent based upon predetermined negative beliefs about someone based on the color of their skin.

My definition would be doing anything (pro/con) based on skin color. It doesn't have to be negative. Although, in many cases, it may be a positive for one, but a negative for another. As in, affirmative action.

Blacks are held back to some degree. And in the business world, that's still a pretty big deal. And yes, I certainly acknowledge that many black business leaders will be racist against whites, or at least give blacks more chances than white. Which is racism.

It is NOT unhealthy when used to point out hypocrisy.

I would disagree with this. If someone says "White people are racist" and someone responds with "Ya, well so are you!". Doesn't solve the issue at hand. I call this deflecting. Justifying one bad thing with an example of another? Two wrongs don't make a right kind of thing. If I have a grievance with you "You . . . . talk too loud when you drink" And you respond with "Ya, well you fart alot at dinner". That's not constructive. A healthier dialogue would be "You are right. I'll drink less or make an effort to be quieter." Issue addressed. Now, feel free to bring up my farting. But to try to justify your poor behavior with an example of mine doesn't solve anything. You are just trying to make me seem like a shittier person so you feel better about your bad behavior.

And I would say that the frustration logical people have isn't losing their "advantage" (properly in quotes), it's gaining "disadvantage". Have white people lost opportunities because of the color of their skin? Yes, and that isn't equality or progress, it's racism. No policy, rules, decisions, etc. should have even the slightest bit of relation to the color of one's skin UNLESS it absolutely requires it. In which case, then people should stop calling those things racist.

For example, if I hire a person that looks Asian to head up my company's new Asian division...that's not racist. Even if you want to say it is, stop pretending the Asian world ISN'T racist. Point being, it makes more sense to hire that guy for business reasons than to hire someone else for diversity reasons.

Your response seems based on the assumption that I'm anti white. Most of what you are arguing, to me, is an example of "you do it too" which I've explained is something I don't acknowledge as a valid response in a debate. At no point have I supported affirmative action, or any other type of racism. I just don't buy the excuse of "It's harder to be white". And this is me injecting some stereotyping into things. Because it's usually accompanied by statements like "Whites are becoming the new minority" "keep the races pure" etc. Again, I admit my prejudice with that statement. People that need to use that excuse generally are doing something else that's making them undesirable. Not that the black man is keep them down.

I recently was told that we were becoming the new minority because of all the illegals coming into the country. I said "I bet all the American Indians are saying, "She how it feels, assholes?"". I don't care that we are becoming the new minority. I don't need America to be white. I'd like it to be fair though.

Thank you for agreeing.

Thank you for assuming I'm anti white!

There is also black privilege.

Thank you for assuming I'm anti white!

You don't see how one group of people claiming they're owed something also perpetuates racism?

Well, concidering I literally said "It just perpetuates racism", I would say yes, I do see it. Again, thank you for assuming I'm anti white!

And there are a lot of black leaders and people who will tell you that you can reverse the races in that sentence and it's still accurate. Isn't it fair to say that ANYONE who blames someone else for their problems is having problems accepting any responsibility for their situation?

Yes. Absolutely. Unless they are at a legitimately unfair disadvantage. See, the business world. It's unfortunate that the black man still has the disadvantage here. Can they overcome? Absolutely. Don't let racism beat you and chalk it up to "It wasn't my fault, it's whitey". Overcome. But I would laugh at any white man that said "I couldn't get an accounting job at Motown Records. Fucking black man keeping whitey down." Or even "I couldn't get into UofM. Affirmative action let a black man in instead". Oh, poor you. Go to State like all the other UofM rejects and still get an outstanding, highly marketable degree for less money instead. It's unfortunate that the racist policy kept you out of your school of choice, but you still have a TON of good options. Your life is not harder.

[Leisher]

I'd like to start by saying: Quit assuming I'm anti white, or pro black. Because I'm not. I think you'll read some of my statements different with that understanding.

I'll start my response by saying at no point did I assume either of those things. I have not been talking to you assuming you're anti or pro anything, not am I anti or pro anything. I thought we were simply discussing racism, and specifically nuances that don't often get discussed. This is because typically when you do people assume things about you...I know, the irony is delicious.

I literally said "To some degree". Not "In all cases".

Yeah, that's why I emphasized the "IS" to show agreement.

My definition would be doing anything (pro/con) based on skin color. It doesn't have to be negative.

So what you're saying is racism can be a good thing? I mean, if it's a positive...

Blacks are held back to some degree. And in the business world, that's still a pretty big deal.

I disagreed with neither, but my level of caring about the business world's discrepancy is pretty low. There's a lot of reasons for that (read my previous posts), and none are malicious racism. I should specify, MY reasons. I'm not saying malicious racism doesn't exist in the business world. It does, but not to the extent people would have you believe. Not only can anyone "make it" through hard work, but if the shoe was on the other foot whitey would be left out in the cold, as you even state.

I would disagree with this. If someone says "White people are racist" and someone responds with "Ya, well so are you!". Doesn't solve the issue at hand. I call this deflecting. Justifying one bad thing with an example of another? Two wrongs don't make a right kind of thing. If I have a grievance with you "You . . . . talk too loud when you drink" And you respond with "Ya, well you fart alot at dinner". That's not constructive. A healthier dialogue would be "You are right. I'll drink less or make an effort to be quieter." Issue addressed. Now, feel free to bring up my farting. But to try to justify your poor behavior with an example of mine doesn't solve anything. You are just trying to make me seem like a shittier person so you feel better about your bad behavior.

This is 100% wrong and I'm really, really tired of it. It's called "Whataboutism", and it's used by people whose argument has flaws, is hypocritical, and so on, but instead of defending their position they scream "whataboutism" as if that's some sort of legitimate defense. That comes off harsh, and I'm not attacking you personally, but I am sick and tired of whataboutism. It's lazy, it's insincere, and it's a crutch.

Should what a person is pointing out be addressed and discussed, ABSOLUTELY. However, by screaming whataboutism you're telling the person you're debating with that your side is unassailable and will not be discussed. That's bullshit.

I would explain based on your example of farting and talking, but it's a bad example. It's not nuanced enough or important enough. Those are just simple behaviors that affect nobody and aren't even something one can deny. In reality, the person screaming whataboutism isn't going to turn around and fix their behavior or admit anything with their argument is wrong. So all you're doing is demanding one side have their argument be dissected, while the other side's isn't. That isn't fair, and it's no way to resolve an issue. One shouldn't get to scream racism while also being racist.

End of the day, we're talking about two sides of one coin. My argument is both sides must be examined. You're saying only one side needs to be examined OR one side must completely cave before we bother looking at the other side.

Whataboutism sucks and is absolutely deflecting.

Your response seems based on the assumption that I'm anti white.

Nope.

I recently was told that we were becoming the new minority because of all the illegals coming into the country. I said "I bet all the American Indians are saying, "She how it feels, assholes?"". I don't care that we are becoming the new minority. I don't need America to be white. I'd like it to be fair though.

I don't care what color the country is, but what does piss me off is people refusing to accept the country's culture or who actively work to change it to match their former country's culture. Fuck those people. Also, I'm really sick and tired of hearing about American Indians as if they are there perfect humans who lived in harmony with nature and each other before the white man came. That's horseshit. There was constant war between tribes, and life was fucking brutal.

Oh, and the Spanish came over and obliterated an entire civilization. Funny how nobody ever talks about that, just how the white man came and took land from Native Americans...who weren't even native to the Americas...but whatevs.

For your next replies, I'll just say thanks for making assumptions about my argument. There's a word for that, but I can't quite place it...

Yes. Absolutely. Unless they are at a legitimately unfair disadvantage. See, the business world. It's unfortunate that the black man still has the disadvantage here. Can they overcome? Absolutely. Don't let racism beat you and chalk it up to "It wasn't my fault, it's whitey". Overcome. But I would laugh at any white man that said "I couldn't get an accounting job at Motown Records. Fucking black man keeping whitey down." Or even "I couldn't get into UofM. Affirmative action let a black man in instead". Oh, poor you. Go to State like all the other UofM rejects and still get an outstanding, highly marketable degree for less money instead. It's unfortunate that the racist policy kept you out of your school of choice, but you still have a TON of good options. Your life is not harder.

There's a lot of ridiculous, racism, and pipe dream in this paragraph.

You are, literally, telling white people "tough shit" if a racist policy blocks them from getting into the school of their choice. You are, literally, laughing at a white person who can't get a job at Motown because of the color of their skin. How is that not racist? How can you possibly justify it? It's ok, because they need the advantage? Do you know how racist that is?

You either want equality and fairness or you don't, which is it?

Black woman are the most educated group in the U.S. (Fact, look it up). Do we still need affirmative action in schools? Aren't we now holding people down in favor of the most educated group? The problem with stuff like Affirmative Action is that it can't be permanent, but nobody seems to be out there checking to make sure it's still needed.

P.S. Asians and Hispanics would like to ask you why you don't mention them.

P.S.S. I know you're not a racist, and I hope you know I'm also not a racist. However, I do know you're bigoted because EVERYONE is bigoted in one way or another. Point being, I feel like, while interesting, we're just going to end up talking in circles, so to save time, here's the summary of my argument:
"Racism exists and is not unique to any one skin color. Everyone needs to stop pretending like that isn't true. Policies favoring a skin color are racist."

So if you have any new information that proves those statements wrong, let me know. Otherwise, can we move on?

[Cakedaddy]

at no point did I assume either of those things

Then why, when I give an example of racism, did you point it out as hypocrisy on my part and ask "don't you see how that's racist?" when I specifically end that statement with "That's racist". You pulled a portion of the statement out, used it out of context as an example of my hypocrisy. I'm referring to this one:

Leisher wrote:
You don't see how one group of people claiming they're owed something also perpetuates racism?

Well, concidering I literally said "It just perpetuates racism", I would say yes, I do see it. Again, thank you for assuming I'm anti white!

It was a statement that blacks perpetuate racism by claiming white people owe them something. But you pulled out the part where I gave an example of how white people respond with more racism, ignoring the part where I said black people were racist to begin with. While I DO believe that some white people would owe some black people based on past events, it would be impossible to quantify and should not be perused. Because it no way do all white people owe all black people anything.


For "whataboutism", you are saying that it's not acceptable, except for when it is? You are sick of it and it shouldn't be used, except when both parties are guilty of the same thing?
"Your policies are racist"
"Well, your policies are racist"
"Well, yours were first"
That's about as far as it gets you. The conversation should be: "All racist policies should be abolished". Thus removing "Whataboutism" and the actual issue can be addressed. I'll agree my example wasn't a match for what's being discussed because both parties are guilty of the same thing. But I stand with my belief that 'deflection' or 'whataboutism' is NEVER an acceptable argument.



At no point did I argue anything about Indians other than the fact that we stole their lands and nearly (and did, in some cases) wipe them from the planet. Sure, it's whataboutism, but, whatever. The person I was talking to wasn't very smart, or a good debater, so it didn't really matter. Point is, the world is going to keep changing for ever and ever and America isn't meant to be whites only. We should all just get along. I don't like Spanish being on every product I buy. That does bug me. But I get it. It's a business thing. They SHOULD market to the people they want to buy their stuff and it's cheaper to print both on the same box. But, admittedly, the racist part of me DOES want them all to learn English cause MERICA! Because really, who cares if they speak Spanish and celebrate Cinco De Mayo (sp?).

There's a lot of ridiculous, racism, and pipe dream in this paragraph.

You are, literally, telling white people "tough shit" if a racist policy blocks them from getting into the school of their choice. You are, literally, laughing at a white person who can't get a job at Motown because of the color of their skin. How is that not racist? How can you possibly justify it? It's ok, because they need the advantage? Do you know how racist that is?

You either want equality and fairness or you don't, which is it?

You're right (you can frame that), it was a poor choice of words. But honestly, I DON'T feel bad for for them. I just don't. And maybe that's my white guilt coming through. I am who I am, deal with it. But ideally, all examples of racism would go away. I wasn't saying it was acceptable. I just don't feel bad for them.

P.S. Asians and Hispanics would like to ask you why you don't mention them.

Because they aren't vocal enough to be a part of the conversation. . . But really, it all applies to them as well of course.

P.S.S. I know you're not a racist, and I hope you know I'm also not a racist. However, I do know you're bigoted because EVERYONE is bigoted in one way or another.

I would say that I (and I believe everyone is) am a racist to some extent. When working in the ghetto, I am more nervous when a group of minorities enter the store to shop than when a group of whites do. There are other examples as well. Yes, everyone is a bigot, and I believe everyone is racist, and sexist (I'd rather talk to a man at home depot about how to fix a plumbing issue than a woman), etc. And if people could be honest with themselves and try to correct themselves, things could change. But, they won't. It's too easy to blame others for your problems.

"Racism exists and is not unique to any one skin color. Everyone needs to stop pretending like that isn't true. Policies favoring a skin color are racist."

I've said that from the beginning and haven't argued otherwise.

So what you're saying is racism can be a good thing? I mean, if it's a positive...

I missed this one. No, not saying that. I'm saying racism isn't always a negative to another race. For example, Miss Black America. Extremely racist, but not at the expense of other races. Pro for black women cause they have their own pageant. But I don't really see it as a negative for someone else. Any more than I see the Miss America pageant hurting men, even though we can't compete in it. But if we are being honest, I would argue that the pageant is very PRO men and hurts women! But I digress.

[Vince]

"Whataboutism" is when one group uses the bad behavior of one group (or side) to justify the same bad behavior in their own group (or side). It is whataboutism to say that because the government gives minorities a hiring preference, then it's okay for a white business owner to not hire minorities. It is not whataboutism to say the government shouldn't have a racial hiring preference and neither should the white business owner.

I'd argue that it isn't necessarily racist to get uneasy when working in the ghetto to see young minorities walking into the store or shop. Would you still be uneasy if you were in an affluent neighborhood and the same young black men walked in wearing suits and ties and didn't have their pants down around their ankles? If you're in a shitty neighborhood and someone walks in looking like a punk ass thug and you notice, I don't think that makes you racist. If you're in a redneck bar and a bunch of rough looking bikers walk in, most people would be equally on guard.

[Cakedaddy]

Agreed with both. But I still feel bad about it. But more about the black ones.

[Leisher]

Terry Gilliam is sick of racism and blaming others for your own problems.

[Cakedaddy]

Gilliam’s latest film, “The Man Who Killed Don Quixote,” will roll out in New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Austin and other top markets starting April 19. The film will also be released on all major VOD platforms on the 19th, as well, and will continue to expand theatrically throughout the spring and beyond.

I bet it won't be. . . .

[Leisher]

[Leisher]

West Virginia BBall player suffers two incidents.

He cannot be the only black player in West Virginia...I think... I wonder what is prompting the incidents? Wonder if it's because he's biracial?

[TheCatt]

West Virginia BBall player suffers two incidents.

He cannot be the only black player in West Virginia...I think... I wonder what is prompting the incidents? Wonder if it's because he's biracial?

Rural WV is super white based on the few times I’ve been there

[Leisher]

The link is to a video story.

Barnes & Noble cancels "diversity" book covers due to backlash.

Essentially, they were putting black people on the cover of classic books. Romeo & Juliet, Moby Dick, Alice in Wonderland, The Wizard of Oz, etc.

The backlash came from black people or at least the ones CNN showed. They were saying "but the people inside are still white" and "Just promote black writers".

I'm with the protesters. Forced diversity just creates more racism. You can't end racism by taking from one race and giving to another. Human nature simply doesn't allow that.