It's getting questionable any more, but America has always been the "beacon of light" to the world for liberty and freedom. whether it is actually true or not. Immigration trends tend to support that idea. Much of the 20th century has been spent prepping for, fighting, or recovering from wars overseas supporting liberty and freedom. Even the war we lost, our aims were proven legitimate. We didn't want Vietnam to fall, because it was suspected there would be a "domino effect" of countries in that region falling to communism. We were correct, and millions died because of it. Lefties are fond of bringing up "Ho Chi Min wanted to ally with the US, but we wouldn't, so he became our enemy." This is true. We did nothing for too long, and the world went on without us.
Now we have an uprising in possibly the most secular country in the world. I'm honestly not even sure what the resistance to that theocratic government represents, but any resistance to the ayatollah is good, as far as I am concerned.
And our President doesn't even have the balls to say "Good luck" to the opposition of the ayatollah.
Our President also said "they are the same fucking guy" already, and he got a "fuck you" letter from the "other fucking guy." So if he wins, there goes good relations with THAT leader.
It is my honest opinion that we have elected a President who doesn't really appreciate, understand, or even know about anything America has stood for for the last 230 years. He got elected because he was black and on the democratic ticket in 2008 and willing to say anything to get elected. "This Iran Thing" is a perfect example of this, as far as I and many others are concerned.
Also, were you being ironic when you said, "We gotta fix health care" and stuff?
Edited By GORDON on 1245850922
Iran
We may have been in a position in the past to pay to topple regimes, but we sure as hell aren't in one now. Dunno about you, but I'm just starting out, and I really really don't want to have to foot another $40-50,000 bill (per household, based on Iraq war cost) in my lifetime for yet another country that I personally don't care that much about.
I'd rather spend that kind of money... getting a system of health care not run by lobbyist (BUT YOU HAVE TO WAIT A MONTH TO GET YOUR TOES CLIPPED!), invested in schools (So they have to stop laying teachers off) or some other project at home: (universities, national parks). Heck I'd even be fine for the money to go against the cost of the 2 to 1 baby boomers I'm going to have to support when they all start retiring.
In the long run, I guess I'm not thinking with my guns and glory point view. I'm thinking with my wallet, and thinking about my future.
I'd rather spend that kind of money... getting a system of health care not run by lobbyist (BUT YOU HAVE TO WAIT A MONTH TO GET YOUR TOES CLIPPED!), invested in schools (So they have to stop laying teachers off) or some other project at home: (universities, national parks). Heck I'd even be fine for the money to go against the cost of the 2 to 1 baby boomers I'm going to have to support when they all start retiring.
In the long run, I guess I'm not thinking with my guns and glory point view. I'm thinking with my wallet, and thinking about my future.
Dude, you must have no idea how far in the hole your personal share of the deficit is. You're already well beyond fucked, Government mandated health care is going to be a lot more expensive than our president having the balls to say "good luck" on TV during prime time.
And you can't pull out of the world just because money is tight. We still have to live in it.
I never realized you were a closet liberal, judging by all the things you just said you wanted.
And you can't pull out of the world just because money is tight. We still have to live in it.
I never realized you were a closet liberal, judging by all the things you just said you wanted.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
We may still have to live in it, but that doesn't mean we have to be white knighting around the globe spending money we don't have.
Why? Because we are some beacon of light, as you said before? Obviously you would be the first to admit we aren't any more, so why spread when we ought be trying to improve THIS country, instead of some pile of sand half the world away.
Throwing up your hands and saying "Screw it, we are already too far in debt to try any more", will work for you, I guess. The economy and debt probably won't catch up to us until you're already retired. But what about me and your kid, I bet we would like to see some progress on the debt, and some light at the end of the tunnel.
*edit ** I understand the total debt is more than 40-50k a household, that was merely the cost of our last little regime toppling fun fest.
Edited By Troy on 1245852972
Why? Because we are some beacon of light, as you said before? Obviously you would be the first to admit we aren't any more, so why spread when we ought be trying to improve THIS country, instead of some pile of sand half the world away.
Throwing up your hands and saying "Screw it, we are already too far in debt to try any more", will work for you, I guess. The economy and debt probably won't catch up to us until you're already retired. But what about me and your kid, I bet we would like to see some progress on the debt, and some light at the end of the tunnel.
*edit ** I understand the total debt is more than 40-50k a household, that was merely the cost of our last little regime toppling fun fest.
Edited By Troy on 1245852972
Russian commies != Iranian fundie psychos.GORDON wrote:Like Reagan and the uprising in Poland?
Open invasion seems out of the question. But IF a few of the rebels happen to find an RPG or two buried in the sand from ... I dunno, there's got to be lots of conflicts around there were munitions change hands
Diogenes of Sinope: "It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC: "Better dead than smeg."
How hard would it be to have a U.S. convoy get "attacked" near the Iraq/Iran border by Iranian rebels?
Oops, that convoy just happened to be transporting weapons and now they're being used in Iran.
Sorry about that!
Oops, that convoy just happened to be transporting weapons and now they're being used in Iran.
Sorry about that!
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
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thibodeaux
- Posts: 8056
- Joined: Thu May 20, 2004 7:32 pm
As most of you know, I was a strong supporter of the invasion of Iraq. I always thought that one of the "features" of invading Iraq was that we knew we could whip their military and setup permanent bases there so we could keep Iran in line.
That hasn't seemed to work out. So now I'm back to isolationist mode. Screw all foreigners. Let's go back to the Clinton playbook. Lob missiles and drop MOABs on 'em for a few weeks and then declare happiness.
That hasn't seemed to work out. So now I'm back to isolationist mode. Screw all foreigners. Let's go back to the Clinton playbook. Lob missiles and drop MOABs on 'em for a few weeks and then declare happiness.
As so many people in the business world love to say, "Perception is reality." I disagree, but I do think perception is important.
When Bush took down Afghanistan's and Iraq's governments within months after 9/11, it sent a message. Actually, the rubble of the WTC was still smoking when the invasion of Afghanistan started. That's huge. I remember Libya taking steps to not be on our bad side after that, for example. I also know there haven't been any attacks on the US since 9/11, in spite of one "Bin Laden" message after another, over and over, promising that soon we'll face something even worse than 9/11. He is now a punch line, for most people.
What message is Obama sending by saying nothing? All it takes is a 30 second speech, even something off the cuff, with absolutely no intent to do anything about it, behind it. It reminds the world we're still watching, and we still give a shit. We're getting the opposite from our President. We're sending a message of apathy and fear. Let's see where it leads. Everything we say now, here is merely academic. But I still think the words from the leader of the free world can hinder or help those fighting for liberty (or whatever it is they are fighting for... at any rate, they seen pretty pissed off about their perception that their votes don't matter. That's pretty big, imo.)
He says nothing, the rebels feel abandoned and lose motivation. He says "good luck," and they feel heartened and fight on. Perception matters.
And for the record, at this time I don't want us going into Iran in force, although I do think we could mop them up handily. I just don't like the mistaken impression that I, and those like me, are pussies. Personal pride, I guess.
Lately Obama's handlers have seen the backlash from his... nothing... and have changed Obama's tune to "I always support peaceful protest." I wonder if the fucker realizes the country he leads did not get its start out of peaceful protest.
When Bush took down Afghanistan's and Iraq's governments within months after 9/11, it sent a message. Actually, the rubble of the WTC was still smoking when the invasion of Afghanistan started. That's huge. I remember Libya taking steps to not be on our bad side after that, for example. I also know there haven't been any attacks on the US since 9/11, in spite of one "Bin Laden" message after another, over and over, promising that soon we'll face something even worse than 9/11. He is now a punch line, for most people.
What message is Obama sending by saying nothing? All it takes is a 30 second speech, even something off the cuff, with absolutely no intent to do anything about it, behind it. It reminds the world we're still watching, and we still give a shit. We're getting the opposite from our President. We're sending a message of apathy and fear. Let's see where it leads. Everything we say now, here is merely academic. But I still think the words from the leader of the free world can hinder or help those fighting for liberty (or whatever it is they are fighting for... at any rate, they seen pretty pissed off about their perception that their votes don't matter. That's pretty big, imo.)
He says nothing, the rebels feel abandoned and lose motivation. He says "good luck," and they feel heartened and fight on. Perception matters.
And for the record, at this time I don't want us going into Iran in force, although I do think we could mop them up handily. I just don't like the mistaken impression that I, and those like me, are pussies. Personal pride, I guess.
Lately Obama's handlers have seen the backlash from his... nothing... and have changed Obama's tune to "I always support peaceful protest." I wonder if the fucker realizes the country he leads did not get its start out of peaceful protest.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
"I've made it clear that the United States respects the sovereignty of the Islamic Republic of Iran, and is not interfering with Iran's affairs. But we must also bear witness to the courage and the dignity of the Iranian people, and to a remarkable opening within Iranian society. And we deplore the violence against innocent civilians anywhere that it takes place."
I'm not trying to white knight the president or anything... but what ELSE can he do... talk against the brutality against protesters... anything more and the ruling party makes the opposition out to be "backed and supported by America."
*Edit* Oops wrong quote.
Edited By Troy on 1245868722
I'm not trying to white knight the president or anything... but what ELSE can he do... talk against the brutality against protesters... anything more and the ruling party makes the opposition out to be "backed and supported by America."
*Edit* Oops wrong quote.
Edited By Troy on 1245868722
Remember when Carter was in office and Iran took those hostages and held them without fear? What happened when Reagan got into office? They immediately backed down. They knew Reagan would call their horseshit with military might.
The world doesn't have that same respect for Obama.
I think that's the point Gordon is trying to make.
Make no mistake, having the balls to use our military was a LARGE part of why many leaders hated Bush, and the lack of those balls is why those same leaders like Obama.
And when I say "like", I don't mean that in a positive way.
Edited By Leisher on 1245873990
The world doesn't have that same respect for Obama.
I think that's the point Gordon is trying to make.
Make no mistake, having the balls to use our military was a LARGE part of why many leaders hated Bush, and the lack of those balls is why those same leaders like Obama.
And when I say "like", I don't mean that in a positive way.
Edited By Leisher on 1245873990
“Every record been destroyed or falsified, books rewritten, pictures repainted, statues, street building renamed, every date altered. The process is continuing day by day. History stops. Nothing exists except endless present in which the Party is right.”
'Blood everywhere' in fresh Iran crackdown
I've read many similar reports and stories. Quite a bloddy mess over there today.
Edited By TPRJones on 1245881936
But some of the tweeters who have shown themselves to be reliable - including foreign reporters with good contacts in Tehran - have posted the following messages in the past 12 hours.
"Lots of reports of heavy gunfire and clashes in Baharestan. One guy is calling it a massacre," one says.
"We heard the women are being beaten so badly they have to amputate their limbs," another says.
"We saw militia with axe chopping people like meat - blood everywhere - like butcher."
I've read many similar reports and stories. Quite a bloddy mess over there today.
Edited By TPRJones on 1245881936
"ATTENTION: Customers browsing porn must hold magazines with both hands at all times!"
This is from yesterday, I just came across it:
Obama's News Conference:
Better. A few days slow, but better.
Obama's News Conference:
The United States and the international community have been appalled and outraged by the threats, beatings, and imprisonments of the last few days. I strongly condemn these unjust actions, and I join with the American people in mourning each and every innocent life that is lost.
I have made it clear that the United States respects the sovereignty of the Islamic Republic of Iran, and is not at all interfering in Iran’s affairs. But we must also bear witness to the courage and dignity of the Iranian people, and to a remarkable opening within Iranian society. And we deplore violence against innocent civilians anywhere that it takes place.
The Iranian people are trying to have a debate about their future. Some in the Iranian government are trying to avoid that debate by accusing the United States and others outside of Iran of instigating protests over the elections. These accusations are patently false and absurd. They are an obvious attempt to distract people from what is truly taking place within Iran’s borders. This tired strategy of using old tensions to scapegoat other countries won’t work anymore in Iran. This is not about the United States and the West; this is about the people of Iran, and the future that they – and only they – will choose.
The Iranian people can speak for themselves. That is precisely what has happened these last few days. In 2009, no iron fist is strong enough to shut off the world from bearing witness to the peaceful pursuit of justice. Despite the Iranian government’s efforts to expel journalists and isolate itself, powerful images and poignant words have made their way to us through cell phones and computers, and so we have watched what the Iranian people are doing.
This is what we have witnessed. We have seen the timeless dignity of tens of thousands Iranians marching in silence. We have seen people of all ages risk everything to insist that their votes are counted and their voices heard. Above all, we have seen courageous women stand up to brutality and threats, and we have experienced the searing image of a woman bleeding to death on the streets. While this loss is raw and painful, we also know this: those who stand up for justice are always on the right side of history.
As I said in Cairo, suppressing ideas never succeeds in making them go away. The Iranian people have a universal right to assembly and free speech. If the Iranian government seeks the respect of the international community, it must respect those rights, and heed the will of its own people. It must govern through consent, not coercion. That is what Iran’s own people are calling for, and the Iranian people will ultimately judge the actions of their own government.
Better. A few days slow, but better.
"Be bold, and mighty forces will come to your aid."
I dont know if I like yours or Malcolms idea better about having so insurgents finding some guns on thier doorsteps in the morning.thibodeaux wrote:As most of you know, I was a strong supporter of the invasion of Iraq. I always thought that one of the "features" of invading Iraq was that we knew we could whip their military and setup permanent bases there so we could keep Iran in line.
That hasn't seemed to work out. So now I'm back to isolationist mode. Screw all foreigners. Let's go back to the Clinton playbook. Lob missiles and drop MOABs on 'em for a few weeks and then declare happiness.
I BBC reporter was on the balcony of his hotel last night. The people are scared of getting there heads busted with chains an other shit. But they were chanting things in the dark. Good for them. An I don't think things look good for there present government.
In marriage there is always one person right. And the other one is the husband.