Immigration

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GORDON
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Immigration

Post by GORDON »

Seems like a good time to discuss it.

It's been argued that in the past immigrants were crucial to the success of our country, that they came and got in the factories and helped build the country, as well as helping push the frontiers and fill in all the empty spaces. Having these jobs, goals, and challenges helped them to assimilate into the American culture and "melt," as they say.

It's also been argued that the labor-based economy in the USA is coming to an end, and most jobs will be automated within 25 years. It's a forgone conclusion that there is no more frontier.

That being the case, what do we expect all these immigrants and/or refugees to do once they are here? Go right into fixing the robots?
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Malcolm
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Re: Immigration

Post by Malcolm »

It's also been argued that the labor-based economy in the USA is coming to an end
Correct. A service-based one is kicking up.
and most jobs will be automated within 25 years.
I find this claim dubious.

"In 25 years, we'll have flying cars."
"In 25 years, we'll have moon bases."
"In 25 years, Antarctica will have completely melted."

I think your science has been paid for and is therefore moot.
It's a forgone conclusion that there is no more frontier.
What frontier? Says who?
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TheCatt
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Re: Immigration

Post by TheCatt »

Well, lesse... they could 1) Found Google, 2) Run Microsoft, or 3) Start 51% of all the $1 Billion+ start-ups in the United States.

That article's a little dated, since they valued AppDynamics at $1 Billion, and it sold to Cisco for $3.7 Billion last week.
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Vince
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Re: Immigration

Post by Vince »

I don't think it's ever a good idea to prevent new people with new ideas and a fresh drive to enter the country as long as it's done with some reason.

That being said, I suspect less than 1% of the immigrants referenced by Catt's article fall within the education background to be in that group discussed in the article. Similarly (though not an immigrant issue), most of the businesses Catt is talking about are web and computer industries that the federal government has not yet regulated out of the reach of the individual. Yet. But as they continue to encroach with net neutrality and the like, it'll come.
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GORDON
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Re: Immigration

Post by GORDON »

Well holy shit, we better grant blanket immunity immediatly. Who knows how many Googles are waiting to be founded.

I guess the things other people on this board have argued have no.connection at all, and everything exists in its own separate bubble of reality. Millennials claim there are no more jobs, tpr says workace automation is right around the corner and also.... Well, fuck it. I'm going to take a day off of arguing.
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TheCatt
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Re: Immigration

Post by TheCatt »

So what's the deal with you just giving up on every argument and going to extremes?
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TPRJones
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Re: Immigration

Post by TPRJones »

Malcolm wrote:Correct. A service-based one is kicking up.
I disagree, service-based economy is already going right back out even more quickly than it started. Because of the automation you so quickly dismiss, even though we already have the prototypes showing up all over the place.
GORDON wrote:It's a forgone conclusion that there is no more frontier.
"Everything that can be invented has been invented." -Charles H. Duel, 1899 (apocryphal)
That being the case, what do we expect all these immigrants and/or refugees to do once they are here?
I don't know. If I knew how the new economy will work I'd be in a position to make several million dollars in the next 10 to 20 years. All we can be sure of is it will at least as different from the recent industrial age economy as the industrial age was from the ancient agricultural economies. And due to the asymptotic nature of history, it will happen in almost no time at all on a historical scale.

So I can't say what these immigrants and/or refugees will do. But I can say that historically they are more hard-working, more innovative, more eager to succeed, and far more grateful for the opportunity to do so than Americans are. As long as those things are still valuable then their contribution to our economy will still be valuable.

It is, admittedly, entirely possible that those things will no longer be valuable. We shall see.
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Vince
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Re: Immigration

Post by Vince »

TPRJones wrote:So I can't say what these immigrants and/or refugees will do. But I can say that historically they are more hard-working, more innovative, more eager to succeed, and far more grateful for the opportunity to do so than Americans are.
I would say that is historically true except for the last 20-30 years. Not that there aren't those as you described still coming in, but we're nowhere near as discerning as we were 40 to 50 years ago. I know a lot of Somalian refugees were brought into a nearby town here and they had to teach them not to shit in holes in their back yards. So other than dysentery I don't think these particular immigrants are offering a lot.
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thibodeaux
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Re: Immigration

Post by thibodeaux »

The people that are so extremely butthurt over Trump's immigration policies are the same people who claim to:
1, Worry about climate change
2. Worry about the poor
3. Worry about oppression of women and The Gays

Immigration, especially immigration from non-white countries, worsens ALL THESE.

1. Moving a person from Somalia to Minnesota multiplies his carbon footprint by...what? Bigly, anyway
2. Importing stupid and unskilled people hurts the poor the most, by driving down wages and fucking up the schools and clogging the emergency rooms with bums who can't pay their hospital bills
3. Do we even have to go into this? Every time a Republican wins an election in the US, the Left thinks it's Handmaid's Tale. Meanwhile, they want to import people who LITERALLY CUT LITTLE GIRLS CLITORISES OFF. Not to mention execute gays.

Also, if you even try to say, "Well, can't we talk about immigration policy?" they will say "HTILERRRRRRRRR!!!!"

So fuck em. Fuck the left, and fuck the immigrants. Especially fuck "refugess." They can stay home and enrich their own countries. That's only fair.
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Re: Immigration

Post by TPRJones »

But, thib, you have failed to account for the fact that those same people think globally, not just about the U.S.:

1) good point, conceded
2) leaving them in wherever almost guarantees they will stay poor, but here they might to better
3) leaving them in wherever that is oppressive to women and the gays means they will stay oppressed

Although ultimately the only possible conclusion they should reach is that we need to kill off the poor and the oppressed. That would solve not only 2 & 3 but also 1. And based on the claims of global warming alarmists there's going to have to be a lot of people killed off if the planet is to survive (like 90%+), so we might as well start somewhere.
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TheCatt
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Re: Immigration

Post by TheCatt »

thibodeaux wrote:The people that are so extremely butthurt over Trump's immigration policies are the same people who claim to:
1, Worry about climate change
2. Worry about the poor
3. Worry about oppression of women and The Gays

Immigration, especially immigration from non-white countries, worsens ALL THESE.

1. Moving a person from Somalia to Minnesota multiplies his carbon footprint by...what? Bigly, anyway
2. Importing stupid and unskilled people hurts the poor the most, by driving down wages and fucking up the schools and clogging the emergency rooms with bums who can't pay their hospital bills
3. Do we even have to go into this? Every time a Republican wins an election in the US, the Left thinks it's Handmaid's Tale. Meanwhile, they want to import people who LITERALLY CUT LITTLE GIRLS CLITORISES OFF. Not to mention execute gays.

Also, if you even try to say, "Well, can't we talk about immigration policy?" they will say "HTILERRRRRRRRR!!!!"

So fuck em. Fuck the left, and fuck the immigrants. Especially fuck "refugess." They can stay home and enrich their own countries. That's only fair.
You should post that on FB.
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thibodeaux
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Re: Immigration

Post by thibodeaux »

No thanks.

BTW, startups are nice but if I have to choose between:
A. America with startups AND an anti-terror police state that makes me get undressed and probed at the airport because PROFILING IS HITERL!
B. America with neither of those things

Well...
Vince
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Re: Immigration

Post by Vince »

I don't understand why we're even talking about this. No one is banned. refugees from 7 countries have been put on hold from entering for 90 days while we figure out what's going on. This is literally nothing (other than the piss poor execution and chaos of other members of his cabinet and staff not knowing what was going on).

I think this was done with protesters waiting in the wings to show up at airports so that little to no attention would be paid to the National Security Counsel changes.
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TheCatt
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Re: Immigration

Post by TheCatt »

Vince wrote:I don't understand why we're even talking about this. No one is banned. refugees from 7 countries have been put on hold from entering for 90 days while we figure out what's going on. This is literally nothing (other than the piss poor execution and chaos of other members of his cabinet and staff not knowing what was going on).
If this if what you believe, you are misinformed.

All people from those countries are banned, unless they are green card holders. Visa holders? banned. Originally (Friday night), even green card holders (permanent legal aliens) were banned. This was not changed until Sunday. All of these people are stopped for 90 days.

Refguees, which are a different subcategory, are stopped for 120 days.
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TheCatt
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Re: Immigration

Post by TheCatt »

Vince wrote:I don't understand why we're even talking about this. No one is banned. refugees from 7 countries have been put on hold from entering for 90 days while we figure out what's going on. This is literally nothing (other than the piss poor execution and chaos of other members of his cabinet and staff not knowing what was going on).

I think this was done with protesters waiting in the wings to show up at airports so that little to no attention would be paid to the National Security Counsel changes.
People are being banned
As of Sunday evening, 348 individuals with plans to travel to the U.S. were recommended by the U.S. Department of Homeland Security to be denied boarding at foreign airports under the order.
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Vince
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Re: Immigration

Post by Vince »

Unless I'm missing something?
(c) To temporarily reduce investigative burdens on relevant agencies during the review period described in subsection (a) of this section, to ensure the proper review and maximum utilization of available resources for the screening of foreign nationals, and to ensure that adequate standards are established to prevent infiltration by foreign terrorists or criminals, pursuant to section 212(f) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1182(f), I hereby proclaim that the immigrant and nonimmigrant entry into the United States of aliens from countries referred to in section 217(a)(12) of the INA, 8 U.S.C. 1187(a)(12), would be detrimental to the interests of the United States, and I hereby suspend entry into the United States, as immigrants and nonimmigrants, of such persons for 90 days from the date of this order (excluding those foreign nationals traveling on diplomatic visas, North Atlantic Treaty Organization visas, C-2 visas for travel to the United Nations, and G-1, G-2, G-3, and G-4 visas).
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TPRJones
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Re: Immigration

Post by TPRJones »

Yes, that is correct. That says that only foreign government officials (of various types) can still be admitted. Everyone else (including those with permanent residence cards, work or student visas, visa types specific to spouses or children of U.S. citizens, or whatever else) are shit out of luck.

The 120 days for refugees was further down in the order (section 5).

EDIT: If it helps, the full lists of various visas are here.
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Vince
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Re: Immigration

Post by Vince »

TPRJones wrote:Yes, that is correct. That says that only foreign government officials (of various types) can still be admitted. Everyone else (including those with permanent residence cards, work or student visas, visa types specific to spouses or children of U.S. citizens, or whatever else) are shit out of luck.
For 90 days?
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Malcolm
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Re: Immigration

Post by Malcolm »

Vince wrote:
TPRJones wrote:Yes, that is correct. That says that only foreign government officials (of various types) can still be admitted. Everyone else (including those with permanent residence cards, work or student visas, visa types specific to spouses or children of U.S. citizens, or whatever else) are shit out of luck.
For 90 days?
How would you like to be stranded in one of those places for 90 days when you were expecting to be somewhere else this weekend? This is a pathetically lazy and stupid zero tolerance policy the likes of which members of this board have ridiculed and lambasted when applied to other things. I furthermore don't share your optimism that Drumpf means "90 days" when he says it. It means "I reserve the right to do something more insane after ninety days."
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Vince
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Re: Immigration

Post by Vince »

Malcolm wrote:
Vince wrote:
TPRJones wrote:Yes, that is correct. That says that only foreign government officials (of various types) can still be admitted. Everyone else (including those with permanent residence cards, work or student visas, visa types specific to spouses or children of U.S. citizens, or whatever else) are shit out of luck.
For 90 days?
How would you like to be stranded in one of those places for 90 days when you were expecting to be somewhere else this weekend? This is a pathetically lazy and stupid zero tolerance policy the likes of which members of this board have ridiculed and lambasted when applied to other things. I furthermore don't share your optimism that Drumpf means "90 days" when he says it. It means "I reserve the right to do something more insane after ninety days."
I wouldn't enjoy that. Not really my point. Calling this a ban is political advocacy among the press. It is a delay. It's not a ban. Unless someone can find the news articles articulating the 7 day waiting period on buying a handgun in Maryland is a ban, I will stand by that assertion. My state requires for you to wait until you are 16 before you can apply for a driving permit. No one refers to it as a driving ban. After receiving the drivers permit, you have to wait some number of weeks before you are allowed to take the actual drivers test. Again, not a ban.

I wouldn't be shocked if Trump moved out the restrictions beyond the written 90 and 120 days. But that is speculation and not the role of the press to factor that in to their reporting today. Trump is capable of extending the time frame beyond what is in the EO. Obama is capable of raping a 6 month old baby in the next 90 days as well. Doesn't make it responsible to report that.
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