The American Dream

[Leisher]

Is dying.

So this comment from another thread also sparked this conversation:

Secondly, Trump HATES that all these businesses are leaving and we have trade deficits with all these other countries.

In a country preoccupied with social issues, what needs to be done to allow people to earn a fair wage anymore? The cost of living is going up, yet salaries are decreasing. Over half of all Americans now live off the government tit. Corporations are focused on profits, not good products or support, and it could probably be argued this is all about appeasing shareholders and getting executives bigger bonuses. It's cheaper to outsource manufacturing jobs overseas than to hire American workers. The government has essentially just given employers the opportunity to reduce benefits even further via healthcare, and now many companies are starting to dump retirement plans.

Fuck the social issues. How do we, without violating the Constitution, make it attractive to hire Americans, give them good benefits, and make corporations give a fuck if their products are shit?

(For this discussion, let's all just assume that we know the power of the consumer. Stick to just governmental changes.)

[TheCatt]

Better education? Learn Chinese?

[GORDON]

I.would.suggest that step 1 be to stabilize the labor pool. Stop letting the slave labor in from across the border and overseas, and that includes the H1-Bs. They bring wages down across the board. Yes it is sad that other people have it hard, but that is a bottomless pool of people and we can't help them all.... And eventually we WILL be full and have to cut them off anyway. Better sooner than later, I sez.

[Malcolm]

That article may as well be called "People Unwilling to Move on from the '70s Stand With Their Jaws Agape as Times Change." The economy has gone global and is significantly different than it was years ago. Learn the new, shiny skills that make the cash nowadays and for the foreseeable future (about the only thing I got right in uni). If you can't compete against the rest of the world, then Darwinism is going to kick in at some point.

How do we, without violating the Constitution, make it attractive to hire Americans,

Make sure there are plenty of Americans who can do the jobs they want.

give them good benefits,

Benefits are used as lures to get better employees and keep them loyal. Corps must give a fuck about their employees before they take it seriously.

and make corporations give a fuck if their products are shit?

Smarten up your average consumer. You'd think this would be easier than ever given the increasing prevalence of social media.

[TheCatt]

Yeah, really, education and stop illegal immigration are two good steps. I don't want to stop skilled migration, but I also don't want to open the flood gates there either.

[Vince]

I'm fine with the H1-B visas. I just think they are being abused and horrible and vile companies like Disney should be fined to the point that they have to shift movie shooting schedules it's hurt their bottom line so bad.

I've been seeing a lot of stats on manufacturing jobs, and the unpleasant truth is we're losing far more jobs to automation than we are to Mexico and China. Not sure what will replace those jobs, but trying to get ahead of that I think would be counter productive. The government isn't very good at predicting market trends (see the housing bubble crisis). I think trying to force things will lead to the same sort of negative economic forces that Trump's 35% tariff will produce if implemented.

Lower taxes of business. Stop with all the insane regulations. I'd personally like to see an end to most of the unelected bodies that produce all these regulations.

[TPRJones]

Really, though, this is all just rearranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

How do we, without violating the Constitution, make it attractive to hire Americans, give them good benefits, and make corporations give a fuck if their products are shit?

You don't. Because all the jobs going overseas is just temporary. All that work will be done here again within ten years. All of it. And it will all be done far cheaper then it is now being done overseas because it will all be robots.

Those jobs are just going to be gone forever. Soon no company that doesn't automate everything they can will be able to compete, because those that do so will be able to bring their products to market for pennies on the dollar in comparison. Sure, there will still be some space in the market for hand-crafted artisan whatevers, but that space will be insignificant in the same way that working horses still exist but don't have much impact on the marketplace.

[Alhazad]

Sell your fucking houses. Rent is 33-50% of a month's pay now and nobody can clear that expense because old fucks are living longer and demanding property values go up, and up, and up, which makes rental markets a bloodletting. Quit treating your house like equity and all the bullshit laws that artificially inflate property value and the mortgage market die. It's shelter. It keeps you off the street while you actually do something useful. Pay the cops with corp taxes -- that's who they're there to protect anyway.

[TheCatt]

Al's mad. Things don't just go up because people demand it. The only clear law that inflates property values is mortgage deduction, not sure what else you're going for.

The cops protect me, I've got $.

[Alhazad]

Al's mad.

We're all mad here.

Things don't just go up because people demand it.

You should write a book. We'll take it to Harvard and turn this whole 'Economics 101' shit upside down.

The only clear law that inflates property values is mortgage deduction, not sure what else you're going for.

Zoning. Busing. Subsidies. Tax credits. The Fed.

The cops protect me, I've got $.

A happy accident.

[TheCatt]

You should write a book. We'll take it to Harvard and turn this whole 'Economics 101' shit upside down.

So I use YOUR definition of demand, and then you decide to use a completely different one to argue against me? Nice.

[Vince]

The 1/3 rule for rent or mortgage has been around for a long time. That's been the standard for as long as I can remember going back about 30 years when I was getting started.

One can buy a tiny house and a small lot somewhere and get by for much less than the average.

[TheCatt]

You know how to fix the 1/3rd thing? Make more $. Our mortgage, with prop taxes, insurance, etc is about 10% of gross income.

[Alhazad]

So I use YOUR definition of demand, and then you decide to use a completely different one to argue against me? Nice.

Demand makes the market, whether acting through government or not. If the young and poor actually voted in the numbers that the relatively more wealthy and aged do, government's influence on housing prices would go completely the other way... at least, until they all had houses.

The 1/3 rule for rent or mortgage has been around for a long time. That's been the standard for as long as I can remember going back about 30 years when I was getting started.

It's also been ill-considered and reductionist since its inception: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ar-useless

[Vince]

The 1/3 rule for rent or mortgage has been around for a long time. That's been the standard for as long as I can remember going back about 30 years when I was getting started.

It's also been ill-considered and reductionist since its inception: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles ... ar-useless

Heh... a professor that has never lived outside of the academic bubble (I'm betting) is telling almost 50 years of financial advisors they are wrong. Not that they might not be wrong, but this article was full of how everyone and everything should manipulate the market place except for the freedom of the market place.

I suspect most of the suggestions here would work out about as well as salary caps do.

[GORDON]

You know how to fix the 1/3rd thing? Make more $. Our mortgage, with prop taxes, insurance, etc is about 10% of gross income.

Mine is also less than a third, because we bought the house we could easily afford and still take lots of vacations, not the big new house in the new development with the high ceilings that we would be paying a lot more for. I want the big new house too, and I get so irritated reading about people who do that and then can't pay for it and they make big government bailout programs for those poor victims.