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| Post Number: 41
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Malcolm 
I disagree.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 27168
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 25 2007,22:28 |
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Remember when games used to ship completed? Like you had the physical data & the game company couldn't take shit from you?
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Diogenes of Sinope:
"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:
"Better dead than smeg."
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| Post Number: 42
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WSGrundy
Group: "Members"
Posts: 1506
Joined: Jan. 2005
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Posted on: Oct. 26 2007,09:44 |
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I was ready to buy the orange box but deactivating the games of people who didn't do anything wrong has turned me off to it again.
I will play HL2 someday but I will wait until it is $1.98 like the HL anthology was that I just bought and played a month and half ago was.
Edited by WSGrundy on Oct. 26 2007,09:44
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| Post Number: 43
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| Post Number: 44
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GORDON
90%
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 36125
Joined: Jun. 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 26 2007,14:03 |
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All they did was get a bargain by shopping overseas, even including shipping, apparently. I can't see how any wrongdoing was done on the part of the consumers. It isn't like that had to mod their PC to make it region-free.
But the consumer is getting hit with a Microsoftian move that uses Windows Update's Steam's "always on" characteristic to disable their legally purchased software.
I've always said shit like this would happen.
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I don't give a fuck!
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| Post Number: 45
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TPRJones
I saw The Fault in our Stars opening night.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 12384
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 26 2007,14:05 |
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Some of them may have known they were purchasing games from the wrong region, but I bet many had no idea. They go online, shop for the game, and see it's on sale on some site somewhere for less. Looks like a good deal on a legitimate product, so they buy it. Next thing they know they're told that if they want to play the game they've bought they'll need to move to Thailand.
If you could seperate the customers that knew it wasn't legit from the ones that got screwed over by a vendor, then by all means punish the knowingly guilty. But the ones that had no idea just got screwed, and from their point of view it wasn't the vendor that screwed them because the game worked fine at first, it was Steam that screwed them when they yanked back their access. It's not good PR. And if they don't find some sort of compromise with these people, then I don't want to do business with them because who knows what'll happen? I can't trust them to always let me play the game I bought and paid for.
When copyright validation gets in the way of using the product, then fuck 'em, there are other products out there that someone will sell me and not keep checking up on me about from now until eternity.
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Vidi Perfutui Veni
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| Post Number: 46
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| Post Number: 47
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Malcolm
I disagree.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 27168
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 26 2007,15:52 |
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One wonders if STEAM was the sick revenge of the RIAA on all the nerds that they think downloaded their music.
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Diogenes of Sinope:
"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:
"Better dead than smeg."
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| Post Number: 48
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TPRJones
I saw The Fault in our Stars opening night.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 12384
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 26 2007,16:02 |
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On the other hand, I really want to play Portal and it's only $20, so I'll eventually do it. But I won't expect to actually own a copy of the game I bought. I just get to play it for a little while until Steam gets pissy.
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Vidi Perfutui Veni
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| Post Number: 49
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WSGrundy
Group: "Members"
Posts: 1506
Joined: Jan. 2005
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Posted on: Oct. 27 2007,14:00 |
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(Leisher @ Oct. 26 2007,13:38)
QUOTE QUOTE I was ready to buy the orange box but deactivating the games of people who didn't do anything wrong has turned me off to it again. Please explain that statement. I mean, explain how these people weren't, at the very least, partially responsible.
Same as the others have said. People looked online and the game was a cheaper price at this store so they bought it.
Valve said in their statement that it was the sellers who made the mistake, but they don't punish them.
I don't see any fault at all with the buyer.
Beyond that what the hell does Valve care where you buy it. I could see EA getting pissed that people are buying from a different region but at that point it is out of Valves hands and they are getting their money either way.
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| Post Number: 50
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| Post Number: 51
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Leisher
Top 3%, yo.
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 26651
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 29 2007,08:42 |
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QUOTE All they did was get a bargain by shopping overseas, even including shipping, apparently. I can't see how any wrongdoing was done on the part of the consumers. It isn't like that had to mod their PC to make it region-free.
I'm quoting you here because you were the first to respond, but my counter point (I'm countering whether the buyers have fault, not whether Valve was wrong or not) applies to any argument defending the buyers.
"Buyer Beware."
In this case, you've got people buying brand new software for a discount from foreign countries not known for their strict anti-piracy stances. Shouldn't anyone with half-a-brain understand there might be some risk there? Doesn't the fact that many are having trouble getting refunds prove my point?
As for Valve...
The first sentence I had typed right here was "I didn't know about regions for games." then it struck me that I actually did. We all know about them. Think about it.
First, there's the language barrier. Games do get released in different languages in different countries.
Second is the culture barrier. For example: WW2 era games in Germany don't have swastikas. They do here.
Third, is another cultural thing, but we'll call it "market". Games released in Japan or Europe may not appeal to the mass market here, and thus, never get released here.
None of that is a defense for breaking a game to ensure they're maximizing profit, if that's what they were doing. It's just examples of the fact that games are made differently for different regions.
Now...
QUOTE But the consumer is getting hit with a Microsoftian move that uses Windows Update's Steam's "always on" characteristic to disable their legally purchased software.
Had the games not worked out of the box, there would be no chain here discussing this and that's a luxury the DVD enjoys as Region 1 players won't play a region 2 disc. PCs are setup the same way.
Now, if Valve was doing it to maximize profits based on returns from domestic versus overseas sales, yeah, it's a shitty move, but what if they're not? What if it's genuine concerns over region compatibility? Obviously, such things wouldn't really affect single player issues, but it may affect multiplayer issues.
Although, I sure as hell do notice that patches for games come out in various flavors (Russian, Chinese, etc.). So isn't it possible that Valve disabled the games to avoid compatibility issues that might have come up from these "other region" games? How about disabling them to avoid technical support issues from people who bought from overseas and then are stupid enough to apply an English patch to their game?
I am NOT saying Valve was in the right here, I'm just pointing out that they might have had legit reasons other than what the knee jerk reactions might assume.
Actually, if you look around your home and office, I think you'll see a lot of examples of consumer products that have similar "fuck you" types of protections which limit our freedom as users. Examples: How many devices do you use that has proprietary technology or parts? How many things do you own where the warranty is voided if you do anything to it? (How many X-Boxs had their warranties voided because people altered theirs to play Japanese games?)
Not saying it's right, just pointing out that as consumers, we swallow a lot of shit, and sometimes forget that we have come to expect certain treatment as standard unless someone else tries to get away with it.
So while I don't think this reasons behind this incident are as horrible as it's being played up to be, I understand and agree that them being able to disable games sucks.
Still, what are you going to do about? Boycott them? I hope you hate PC Games because eventually, they'll all be this way. I've heard Bioshock had some sort of activation, although I never noticed it when I installed it or booted it up.
I think the real thing to do would be to write your congressman and start the fight there. Have them get guarantees that they won't disable games just for profit or to be malicious. Have them get guarantees that games will still work if a distribution service goes under or that games shouldn't be activated upon each use.
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| Post Number: 52
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GORDON
90%
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 36125
Joined: Jun. 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 29 2007,08:56 |
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I think you're way too lenient with Steam when it comes to this stuff. It was one thing to defend it when it started and all anyone had was suspicions... but this is the straight-up disabling of legally purchased software, and you're still defending it. You mentioned "you know pirating is illegal," but this software wasn't pirated. Maybe buried on Valve's website somewhere is fine print saying you shouldn't shop outside of your country's borders, but it surely isn't public knowledge. I follow the industry better than most and until now I wouldn't have thought twice about purchasing a game from a website with a server that sits in some other country. And I especially would not have expected this customer-fucking behavior from Valve. How many of these people who legally purchased the game are ever going to legally buy from Valve again, and instead will just pirate a cracked copy?
Steam may be great for small software companies to publish in spite of large distributors, but you've got to be willing to be critical of missteps, or they'll never improve.
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I don't give a fuck!
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| Post Number: 53
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Malcolm
I disagree.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 27168
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 29 2007,09:27 |
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QUOTE "Buyer Beware."
What happened to "I paid for your shit, now let me use it," that's been the rallying cry of the consumer since someone first got screwed out some shiny rocks? If folks got this game from vendors they shouldn't've been able to, punishing the end user doesn't seem intelligent. Why not punish the fuckers that did the selling? Maybe some rudimentary checking of geographic location or some shit? The most Stalinistic, iron-fisted move they could've done was deactivate those copies. Good to know what they really think of their customers now. Nothing encourages more sales than fucking over your clients.
QUOTE I am NOT saying Valve was in the right here, I'm just pointing out that they might have had legit reasons other than what the knee jerk reactions might assume.
Legitimate reasons notwithstanding, such shit should've been addressed before they pushed their product out the door. The feels like a very real example of "release now, patch later," except that "patch" means "turn off."
QUOTE Still, what are you going to do about? Boycott them? I hope you hate PC Games because eventually, they'll all be this way. I've heard Bioshock had some sort of activation, although I never noticed it when I installed it or booted it up.
If there comes a day when the ONLY way to get games is thru services like STEAM, I'll jump on board w\ the pirates & steal them, just on general fucking principle.
QUOTE I think the real thing to do would be to write your congressman and start the fight there.
While I have no doubt in the honest, forthright, and speedy actions of the U.S. Congress, I'd rather just buy from companies that don't fuck me over.
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Diogenes of Sinope:
"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:
"Better dead than smeg."
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| Post Number: 54
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TPRJones
I saw The Fault in our Stars opening night.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 12384
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 29 2007,09:29 |
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(Leisher @ Oct. 29 2007,08:42)
QUOTE In this case, you've got people buying brand new software for a discount from foreign countries not known for their strict anti-piracy stances.
This is the problem, though. Â I doubt there was anything on the site saying in big flashing letters "THIS IS A RUSSIAN WEBSITE". Â More likely it was named something like "Bob's Discount Software" and didn't mention where they'd be shipping from. Â You pay with a credit card or Paypal, so you don't see an address when you are buying the software. Â Just when the box shows up at your door and the return address is printed in the cyrilic alphabet.
Now if someone bought software from some random website and got ripped off directly (the software never showed up, it was an illegal copy, etc) that would be one thing. Â Then by all means buyer beware. Â But this software worked just fine for awhile and isn't pirated, it was Steam that directly killed it because it didn't like the region. Â That's different.
As to the rest of your post, I have no arguements and agree with much of what you say. But if they did kill their codes for technical compatibility reasons then they should have said so very clearly. They didn't.
Edited by TPRJones on Oct. 29 2007,09:31
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Vidi Perfutui Veni
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| Post Number: 55
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| Post Number: 56
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Leisher
Top 3%, yo.
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 26651
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 29 2007,09:40 |
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QUOTE This is the problem, though. I doubt there was anything on the site saying in big flashing letters "THIS IS A RUSSIAN WEBSITE". More likely it was named something like "Bob's Discount Software" and didn't mention where they'd be shipping from. You pay with a credit card or Paypal, so you don't see an address when you are buying the software. Just when the box shows up at your door and the return address is printed in the cyrilic alphabet.
From Gordo's article:
QUOTE Many of us bought the product (and hence, the serial numbers) legitimately online via well known international game stores, as they sell them significantly cheaper than American stores.
Let speculation run wild regarding "well known international game stores". If they are so "legit" why are people having trouble getting their money back? Particularly since this situation is now well publicized, so the stores should know the person isn't scamming them.
Personally, I'm going with the "well known international game stores" being "online sites" and nothing more. If it was a big name retailer, they would've named them.
QUOTE But this software worked just fine for awhile and isn't pirated, it was Steam that directly killed it because it didn't like the region. That's different.
As to the rest of your post, I have no arguements and agree with much of what you say. But if they did kill their codes for technical compatibility reasons then they should have said so very clearly. They didn't.
See and I think that's where we have a problem om figuring out who is right and who is wrong. Can computer manufacturers break a game out of the box without online verification? If they can be sued in Germany (using the swastika example) for their American region game being played there (and they can be), shouldn't they reserve the right to make sure that American region game can't be played in Germany?
(Again, not defending any move based on monetary gain, although I don't think that's the case here as someone pointed out...Valve already got paid no matter where the people go their copies from.)
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| Post Number: 57
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GORDON
90%
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 36125
Joined: Jun. 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 29 2007,09:42 |
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(Leisher @ Oct. 29 2007,12:40)
QUOTE From Gordo's article: QUOTE Many of us bought the product (and hence, the serial numbers) legitimately online via well known international game stores, as they sell them significantly cheaper than American stores. Let speculation run wild regarding "well known international game stores". If they are so "legit" why are people having trouble getting their money back?
Go try returning for a refund an opened game to Best Buy, a well-known American company.
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I don't give a fuck!
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| Post Number: 58
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| Post Number: 59
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Leisher
Top 3%, yo.
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 26651
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 29 2007,09:48 |
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QUOTE Go try returning for a refund an opened game to Best Buy, a well-known American company.
Wrong argument.
You can. Very easily.
In this case, Valve was asking people to return the game and get it from a legit source. IE: The game was broken.
If you go to Best Buy, a legit source, and return a broken game to get a working copy, they'll do it.
Oh, and once again, "Buyer Beware". You seem to know Best Buy's policies well. If you don't like the return policy, don't shop there.
If you're going to use an argument like that, let's make it apples to apples.
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| Post Number: 60
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Malcolm
I disagree.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 27168
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Oct. 29 2007,09:55 |
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(Leisher @ Oct. 29 2007,11:48)
QUOTE Oh, and once again, "Buyer Beware".
How can you use that argument in a country where a cup of coffee has a warning label that says "CAUTION : HOT" even as you see it being poured & columns of steam wafting from it? Or where shampoos need to explain that shampoo for "dry hair" will not actually give you dry hair? How many useless fucking consumer warnings go on products everyday? Shit, I'm surprised knives don't have warning labels that say, "Don't cut yourself."
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Diogenes of Sinope:
"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:
"Better dead than smeg."
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