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Leisher 
Top 3%, yo.
Group: Super Administrators
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Posted on: Aug. 27 2012,12:06 |
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Details.
The League of Legends forums have blown up with people screaming that MLG and Riot overracted and did the wrong thing. These people are wrong, and it isn't even something that can be debated.
Their points and why they're wrong:
1. "They were disqualified for playing ARAM!"
These teams were not disqualified for playing ARAM. The organizers of the tournament weren't thrilled about it, but that's not why they were DQed and denied prize money.
ARAM, for those unfamiliar, is a style of play in LoL that doesn't utilize the entire map, but limits all players into one lane against each other for the length of the match.
2. "Nobody threw the match"
This one is pure speculation on both sides of the argument, and it heavily ties into point #3.
"Shoeless" Joe Jackson played for the Chicago White Sox and was on the infamous "Black Sox" team. Joe, and 7 of his teammates, took money to throw the World Series, yet his stats showed he had an amazing series, and would appear that he did his best to win it.
What's the point of that? Keep reading.
3. "All they did was agree to split the money. No harm in that."
This is where the internet trolls are really wrong.
There's this game called poker, and they have a world championship. Well, in years past folks would agree to split the pots. However, since the sport went mainstream, they needed credibility, particularly for their sponsors. Thus, there are now rules preventing such collusion.
Part of the thinking is that if you're guaranteed a certain amount, your efforts will be diminished. Don't try to debate that because it's absolutely true. If you are playing a game in which the winner gets $1,000,000 and the loser gets nothing, you're going to bust your ass. If you're playing a game where there is no difference between winning and losing, you're not going to care very much if you lose.
The sponsors who pay for the tournament and put up the prize pool want a great match. They don't want the audiences who show up to see two teams half-assing it because they're already reached an agreement to split the prize purse. Does anyone really think an audience will tune in to watch people not trying their best? And if the audience isn't there, the sponsors aren't there. Without sponsors, there is no tournament.
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| Post Number: 2
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GORDON
90%
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 36125
Joined: Jun. 2004
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Posted on: Aug. 27 2012,12:10 |
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When it comes to moral decisions, usually the right thing to do the opposite of what the majority of people on the internet think is right
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I don't give a fuck!
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| Post Number: 4
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WSGrundy
Group: "Members"
Posts: 1506
Joined: Jan. 2005
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Posted on: Aug. 27 2012,18:58 |
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I disagree with splitting the pot. Doing that doesn't mean you are going to get a half assed match. People still want to win the title. I have several friends who drag race in competition that pay large prizes around the country and 99% of the final 4 all agree to split the money. Never once have any of them not tried to win the race.
I don't know how much extra money comes along from being #1 in a video game but it sure as hell has to bring more in endorsements then being #2.
If there were rules saying no to splitting the pot then go ahead and kick people out but I don't see any reason why that would lead to a poor final.
Edited by WSGrundy on Aug. 27 2012,19:00
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| Post Number: 5
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Leisher
Top 3%, yo.
Group: Super Administrators
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Posted on: Aug. 27 2012,20:47 |
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QUOTE I have several friends who drag race in competition that pay large prizes around the country and 99% of the final 4 all agree to split the money. Never once have any of them not tried to win the race.
People will try for a title, but not as hard. This isn't something you can argue. It's science. It's nature. It's why people get complacent in their lives. They settle into habits and as long as they sustain them, they don't strive for more.
Yes, some folks would have the drive to continue to try to win, but most folks wouldn't.
However, all of that is a moot point considering the collusion apparently went beyond splitting the purse.
I also don't think auto racing is an ideal example. And I mean no offense by that statement, but there's more at work there than human will. That's a debate for a different thread though.
Also, this tournament was for chump change compared to the main event. Only $40,000 total was on the line, meanwhile in the next event they're playing for millions.
I can only compare this all to poker where rules state there is no prize splitting, ever. It might even be illegal to do in poker tournaments in Nevada. Seriously. I know this issue has been discussed in televised events.
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| Post Number: 6
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TheCatt
Top 2%
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Posts: 22951
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Posted on: Aug. 28 2012,06:23 |
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I had no idea that was in Raleigh this past weekend.
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It's not me, it's someone else.
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| Post Number: 7
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| Post Number: 8
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Leisher
Top 3%, yo.
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 26651
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Posted on: Aug. 28 2012,07:18 |
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(TPRJones @ Aug. 28 2012,09:28)
QUOTE
(Leisher @ Aug. 27 2012,22:47)
QUOTE Yes, some folks would have the drive to continue to try to win, but most folks wouldn't. Exactly. Â And if they didn't have that drive to continue to try to win, they wouldn't have been in the final in the first place. Â These people have that drive to continue to try to win. Â This isn't something you can argue. Â WSGrundy is right. What it DOES change to do this is perceptions. Â People perceive the stakes as being lower, so they lose interest and they think they see people not playing as hard. Â And that's a perfectly valid reason for those running the show to worry.
Before I begin responding to this, I want to point out that they admitted to fixing the finals, so all of this is a moot point because they weren't just splitting money.
As to your statement, you lost me.
Not sure how you can say "Exactly" to my statement, and then say folks will always try to win. I think you quoted the wrong thing?
Anyway, I completely and utterly disagree with you. Not everyone in a finals has the drive to get over the hurdle of "now you're just playing for a title because the prize has been removed". You're arguing against human nature there.
The fact that they agreed to split the prize money proves my point. Do you think at any point in his career, Michael Jordan would have agreed to split the prize money (if that's how the NBA worked) for a championship series? Think Tiger Woods or Jack Nicolaus made back room deals to split the purse on the final day of the Masters? I can go on and on with these examples.
The problem with your argument for these specific individuals, who were found to be cheating and DQed, is that they had nothing to play for after their deal. The title meant nothing. This was a regionals tournament and both were already into the nationals. That's one of the reasons they played an ARAM game.
What's that? Imagine if the Boston Celtics and LA Lakers met in the NBA Finals. It's a best of 7 series. Well, they determined before hand to split the prize money, so for fun they decide that instead of a normal basketball game, they'll play game under the rules of H.O.R.S.E.
That's literally what took place here. Â While I don't judge them negatively for showcasing a game play "mode" that some aren't familiar with, it also showcased a "who cares" attitude towards their finals series.
Before you imply that, "Hey maybe they play ARAM a lot"... ARAM stands or "All Random All Mid". That means they're letting random chance dictate which one of 100 or so champions they're going to play that game. Nobody has all the champions mastered. Every player has specific ones mastered. It'd be like Tiger Woods deciding on the final day of a tournament to let a fan pick a random set of clubs and balls for him to play, then not letting his caddy carry his clubs or give him distances/reads, AND deciding not to user his putter.
That's my point. I don't think they WANT to lose once they agree to a split, but I think their drive suffers a hit, even if it's ever so slight. Because that knowledge is sitting in their brain knowing that even in defeat, they win. That's a crutch, and a very natural human defense mechanism. When it comes to crunch time, that's going to be there helping them accept a defeat rather than fighting back with every scrap of fight they have left.
As to your other point, no disagreement there. Perception is what I was talking about when I said sponsors will NOT accept splitting of prizes. It dilutes the product, and turns off the audience.
Edited by Leisher on Aug. 28 2012,07:19
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| Post Number: 9
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GORDON
90%
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 36125
Joined: Jun. 2004
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Posted on: Aug. 28 2012,07:23 |
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(Leisher @ Aug. 28 2012,10:18)
QUOTE Before you imply that, "Hey maybe they play ARAM a lot"... ARAM stands or "All Random All Mid". That means they're letting random chance dictate which one of 100 or so champions they're going to play that game. Nobody has all the champions mastered. Every player has specific ones mastered. It'd be like Tiger Woods deciding on the final day of a tournament to let a fan pick a random set of clubs and balls for him to play, then not letting his caddy carry his clubs or give him distances/reads, AND deciding not to user his putter.comes to crunch time, that's going to be there helping them accept a defeat rather than fighting back with every scrap of fight they have left.
I think a better analogy would be... Tiger Woods, and everyone else in the game that day, decided to play left handed.
I don't think peeps want to see that shit, they pay to see the masters at work. I think peeps would stop being excited about these tournaments, and by extension the game, if it were tainted with a "hey top 3 teams, let's split the prize because this is stressful and there are consequences to losing." Because who gives a shit about something like that? I wouldn't. I want to see first place, and first loser.
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I don't give a fuck!
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| Post Number: 10
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TPRJones
I saw The Fault in our Stars opening night.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 12384
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Posted on: Aug. 28 2012,08:00 |
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(Leisher @ Aug. 28 2012,09:18)
QUOTE Not sure how you can say "Exactly" to my statement, and then say folks will always try to win. I think you quoted the wrong thing?
Because I was agreeing with your statement that some people will try to win regardless of the stakes. Â And then I pointed out that the type of person to end up in that League of Legends match is exactly that sort of person, or they wouldn't have been there at all.
Are you saying that the high-stakes League of Legends players are in fact not insanely driven to squeeze every last ounce of misery out of the opposing team at every opportunity? Â We are talking about League of Legends here. Â Have you ever met the sort of people that play that game competitively?
You admit there are people like that. Â I agreed. Â Then pointed out that if anyone has ever been so, these are those people.
I think this is also probably true of just about every sport. Â The high end players are mostly the sort that are so driven that specific stakes don't matter. Â They will try their hardest regardless. Â If that weren't so, they wouldn't have been driven enough to be there in the first place (of course there are some exceptions, but probably not that many). Â If anything they probably play a bit better when splitting because some of the nervous pressure is off and they can focus more clearly.
However, I am not defending them. Â And I totally understand why they are being DQ'd. Â Because of the perceptions thing. Â Perceptions that I think are mostly wrong, but still exist.
Edited by TPRJones on Aug. 28 2012,08:35
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Vidi Perfutui Veni
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| Post Number: 11
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| Post Number: 12
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Leisher
Top 3%, yo.
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 26651
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Posted on: Aug. 28 2012,09:02 |
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QUOTE And then I pointed out that the type of person to end up in that League of Legends match is exactly that sort of person, or they wouldn't have been there at all.
I don't agree with that. Drive is an awesome factor, but I don't think only people with drive get to the promised land. Sometimes pure skill takes you or you're on a team who carries you.
Since LoL is a team game, it'd only take one guy to give less than his absolute best. Understand, he may go into the game to win, but if things get bleak, he may slack off a bit knowing it doesn't matter anyway.
QUOTE Are you saying that the high-stakes League of Legends players are in fact not insanely driven to squeeze every last ounce of misery out of the opposing team at every opportunity? We are talking about League of Legends here. Have you ever met the sort of people that play that game competitively?
This made me laugh. The community does have a reputation doesn't it?
Still, there's a points system that you're overlooking. The finals didn't matter much to either team aside from the cash and a meaningless title.
My point is, you've taken the cash and the points off the table. The cash is being split and the points are meaningless, so they're just playing for that title. And again, to show how important that was to them, they agreed to play in a variation of the game that they play day and night. Oh, and do so with potential champions they've never played, and in roles they don't normally play.
Because Michael Jordan once played while hoping on one foot, "just for fun".
And that's actually another point right there. They said they played that ARAM "for fun". The level of competition in that admission is staggering. 
Let's look at the history of poker. They used to let folks chop pots in tournaments, until television, and the tournaments would just end or be "all in" fests until a winner was decided. I've heard people tell stories about how folks just wanted to get out of there and head to another tournament (back when chopping pots was legal in tournaments). The point being that once the prize disappeared, so did the desire to win.
And again, I'm not saying EVERY player in every sport would stop trying if they made such a deal, but some would. To suggest otherwise is foolish, and implies that the logic of "People who are on welfare will work hard to get off of it" is correct.
I also agree with your statement that some folks might play better with the pressure off.
Ditto for perception, which is the most important thing, because sports and competitions are nothing without sponsors and an audience.
However, my point remains that some people will not try their hardest to win when the stakes are gone despite a "title" still being up for grabs. All the evidence in this situation backs my belief up, as does the history of poker.
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| Post Number: 13
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Leisher
Top 3%, yo.
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 26651
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Aug. 28 2012,09:09 |
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(TPRJones @ Aug. 28 2012,11:33)
QUOTE QUOTE Before I begin responding to this, I want to point out that they admitted to fixing the finals Wait, what? Â They admit that they decided in advance who would win? Â Not just "let's split" and whatnot? If so, then I stand corrected. Â These guys shouldn't have been playing in the first place and now I wonder if them getting there wasn't also rigged with bribes of some sort.
Yeah, go back up and read what I posted about "RedBeard".
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| Post Number: 14
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TPRJones
I saw The Fault in our Stars opening night.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 12384
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Posted on: Aug. 28 2012,10:03 |
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QUOTE They said they played that ARAM "for fun". The level of competition in that admission is staggering.
This is probably true, and doesn't necessarily detract from the intensity of the competition. Again, we are talking about LoL players. "For fun" usually means something different to them. Like screaming at each other about being newbs and ganking at every opportunity. Or more realistically, trying to rise to the challenge and ripping your opponents throat out through his ear. That's their "fun".
And ARAM is not quite like you make it out to be. You get assigned a champion from those you own, so it won't be one you've never played before. And then you get to swap with your teammates as well, so you can get people into the best role possible given the draw. I imagine at the high end it's much more interesting and challenging than regular games where everyone is bringing their best champ so there are no surprises. Of course the audience would rather see their best game rather than their most fun game, but they weren't considering the audience when they chose that.
Because they're idiots with no empathetic social skills and have no concept of what an audience might think about the setup. From their point of view, they were probably trying to make the game as exciting as possible. For them.
It's like how every year my mother would give me as a birthday present something she wanted, because she couldn't understand that other people might want other things than she does. I know this type of person all too well.
QUOTE Yeah, go back up and read what I posted about "RedBeard".
Oh, that. Of course they admitted to colluding, that's the whole point o fthis thread. But the "throw the match" bit I'd need to see in the players own words before I take that as written. I can see them agreeing to ARAM and split as being "throw the match" as far as RedBeard was concerned even if in fact they were going to play as hard as they possibly could and had not agreed in advance that someone would take a dive.
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| Post Number: 15
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Leisher
Top 3%, yo.
Group: Super Administrators
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Posted on: Aug. 28 2012,10:28 |
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QUOTE This is probably true, and doesn't necessarily detract from the intensity of the competition. Again, we are talking about LoL players. "For fun" usually means something different to them. Like screaming at each other about being newbs and ganking at every opportunity. Or more realistically, trying to rise to the challenge and ripping your opponents throat out through his ear. That's their "fun".
You're painting LoL competitors incorrect, and with a single stroke of the brush. Despite their reputation, they aren't all the same.
You're forgetting that they're human beings. Just because they're LoLers doesn't mean they scream noob at everyone.
Half of the people on these forums play LoL.
Noob.
QUOTE And ARAM is not quite like you make it out to be. You get assigned a champion from those you own, so it won't be one you've never played before. And then you get to swap with your teammates as well, so you can get people into the best role possible given the draw. I imagine at the high end it's much more interesting and challenging than regular games where everyone is bringing their best champ so there are no surprises.
You're forgetting that the game is selecting for them at random. It literally could have been 5 AD Carries against 5 support champs. FUN!
At the top levels of the game, these guys own everyone. You don't just buy the players you play or those are who will be banned by the other team. Then you're fucked.
QUOTE Oh, that. Of course they admitted to colluding, that's the whole point o fthis thread. But the "throw the match" bit I'd need to see in the players own words before I take that as written. I can see them agreeing to ARAM and split as being "throw the match" as far as RedBeard was concerned even if in fact they were going to play as hard as they possibly could and had not agreed in advance that someone would take a dive.
Go dig through all the articles. There's one that states at least one member of one of the teams admitted the match outcome was pre-determined.
You know, in the grand scheme of things, this is a good thing. I know that sounds crazy, but they needed this precedent. Now they can go forward with stricter rules in place to stop it from happening again. They should just be thankful it happened in a meaningless regional and not the Season 2 finals.
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| Post Number: 16
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TPRJones
I saw The Fault in our Stars opening night.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 12384
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Aug. 28 2012,13:01 |
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QUOTE You're painting LoL competitors incorrect, and with a single stroke of the brush. Despite their reputation, they aren't all the same.
This is true, they aren't. Â There's certainly variation. Â But I do think in general those at the top tiers are the most driven to compete.
You are just as guilty of generalizing with your claims that everyone in the world is the same and would not play as hard with a split. Â Of course I don't think you really mean everyone, so ultimately we are disagreeing on what the majority of people in that situation would be like. Â I think you are right that most people taken from the general populous wouldn't play as hard. Â But I also think those most likely to be in that situation aren't on average the same as the average person taken from the population in general, and most of them there would still play just as hard.
QUOTE You're forgetting that they're human beings. Just because they're LoLers doesn't mean they scream noob at everyone.
Half of the people on these forums play LoL.
Noob.
I know. Â I've seen y'all play. Â I've played with y'all, and read threads about how games went and what needs to be changed.
Where do you think I am getting these generalizations from?
Edited by TPRJones on Aug. 28 2012,13:02
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Vidi Perfutui Veni
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| Post Number: 17
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Leisher
Top 3%, yo.
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Posted on: Aug. 28 2012,13:52 |
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QUOTE But I do think in general those at the top tiers are the most driven to compete.
Or just have more opportunity than others. For example, perhaps they just happened to be on a team of people who didn't have jobs and families to take them away from LoL.
QUOTE You are just as guilty of generalizing with your claims that everyone in the world is the same and would not play as hard with a split. Of course I don't think you really mean everyone, so ultimately we are disagreeing on what the majority of people in that situation would be like. I think you are right that most people taken from the general populous wouldn't play as hard. But I also think those most likely to be in that situation aren't on average the same as the average person taken from the population in general, and most of them there would still play just as hard.
I'm generalizing, but I'm doing so from a position of defending the rules. All it takes it a single player who slacks off and the rule is justified.
You simply cannot make an agreement with your opponent prior to a match that could have an affect on the outcome of the match. Agreeing to split a prize, and thus, removing incentive to win does just that.
QUOTE I know. I've seen y'all play. I've played with y'all, and read threads about how games went and what needs to be changed.
Where do you think I am getting these generalizations from?
We are brutal to one another In fact, Cakedaddy says that every loss we've ever had is my fault. However, we're quite polite to our opponents. Even the ones who talk lots of shit. We just like to talk shit to each other. (One glaring except to everything I just said...)
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TPRJones
I saw The Fault in our Stars opening night.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 12384
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Aug. 28 2012,14:01 |
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Leisher, let me ask you this: Because there is not any money on the line, does that mean you never give LoL your best effort? Â Ever?
I mean, it sure sounds like y'all are trying pretty hard to win, based on the posts I read here. Â But if there's no money on the line, apparently that can't be so.
So, maybe Cakedaddy is right. 
Edited by TPRJones on Aug. 28 2012,14:02
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Vidi Perfutui Veni
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