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Leisher 
Top 3%, yo.
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Posted on: Jul. 16 2015,18:19 |
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FOX is taking heat for this report.
It states that 15 year olds in Oregon can get state funded sex change operations without parental permission. This is due to a change in Oregon laws in January.
As you can imagine, the left is attacking the report as horseshit and typical FOX bad reporting and overreaction.
Here's a report from a local Oregon station that doesn't seem to be particularly biased?
FOX is overreacting because:
QUOTE “The age of consent in Oregon has been 15 since 1971,” Burleton said.
Ah, so perhaps the FOX reporter got facts wrong or did overreact. Tell us more...
QUOTE But Jenn Burleton, the executive director of TransActive Gender Center in Portland, said the idea a 15-year-old can walk into a doctor’s office, say they want gender affirmation surgery and get it done without a parent’s consent is unrealistic.
OK...
QUOTE “It’s irrational,” she told KOIN 6 News. “It’s laughable.”
Well, I'm feeling better about this all now. FOX was clearly wrong.
QUOTE “In Oregon, the age of medical consent is 15 or older. Patients should be able to demonstrate the capacity to make a fully informed decision and to give consent to treatment, regardless of age. However, nothing in Oregon law requires a health care provider to provide medical services to a minor or safeguard the confidentiality of a minor. In most cases, providers will encourage (and in some cases require) family engagement and supports unless it would endanger the patient.”
There are also a long list of guidelines that must be met before anyone gets insurance coverage for cross-sex hormone therapy or sex reassignment surgery.
Psychotherapy and medical and surgical treatments for gender dysphoria listed as 413 out of 476 in a list of prioritized health services the Oregon Health Plan will cover.
That is coverage Burleton said she worked hard to secure during testimony to the Health Evidence Review Commission in 2014.
Her testimony, she said, “showed that this care was, indeed, life saving, was medically necessary, it was evidence-based care.”
So — Oregon Medicaid began covering transgender related healthcare in January. For years, the age of medical consent in Oregon has been 15. Combine the 2 and you have the issue some are voicing concerns over, even if it was not an intended outcome of the January change.
Maybe I read that wrong, but it seems a 15 year old in Oregon CAN get state funded transgender surgery without a parent's consent, but this lady hopes doctors would contact their families first?
If someone wants to be transgender, let them. However, can't we wait at least 3 more years until they're adults? Seems kind of important considering suicide rates among transgender folks.
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TPRJones
I saw The Fault in our Stars opening night.
Group: Privateers
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Posted on: Jul. 16 2015,18:49 |
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The whole gender reassignment process takes years. If they start at 15 they probably won't be done by the age of 18 anyway. Plus if they are determined to do it the sooner the better. The longer the "wrong" sex hormones have to do their thing to them the more it will take to reverse those effects during the transition, if it can even be done.
18 is an arbitrary age. Some 15 year olds are mature enough to make such a decision. Many aren't. But then many 18 year olds aren't either. And I wish we lived in a world where parents could be trusted to make wise decisions for their children not colored by their own biases, but we don't.
I think the safest course of action would be to let the doctor use their own judgement to decide if they are mature enough to continue without parental consent or not, just by making sure the doctor has the right to refuse the treatment. Sure doctors aren't fallible, but parents aren't either.
I guess with some particular kids and parents there just are no good answers.
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Vidi Perfutui Veni
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| Post Number: 3
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Leisher
Top 3%, yo.
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Posted on: Jul. 16 2015,19:45 |
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I just find it funny that people were so quick to condemn FOX, yet they were actually correct. That woman blatantly contradicts herself and clearly doesn't know the law or forgot that she fought for it.
In terms of what you're saying TPR, I think all age limits are arbitrary, but I do think 18 is a good general rule of thumb.
Even if a 15 year old is mature enough to make the decision, are they wise enough?
I hope whatever program they setup, it has enough protections in it to avoid anything drastic until all the proper evaluations have been done to ensure the individual can handle the change.
Maybe simply allow the 15 year old to start the process, but they don't have anything major done until they hit 18, at which point they move to the front of the line?
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| Post Number: 4
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TPRJones
I saw The Fault in our Stars opening night.
Group: Privateers
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Posted on: Jul. 16 2015,19:48 |
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Sure.
It helps that part of the process is requiring someone to live a full year as the other gender before doing anything more than taking small amounts of hormone therapy to sort of put things on hold and at most androgynize them a little. It's going to take some really oblivious parents to not notice their son wearing dresses and fake tits for a full year. 
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Vidi Perfutui Veni
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Malcolm
I disagree.
Group: Privateers
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Posted on: Jul. 16 2015,20:06 |
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QUOTE Even if a 15 year old is mature enough to make the decision, are they wise enough?
Wisdom doesn't figure into legal rights unless you're talking clinically diagnosed reduced mental capacity. Your chronological age does because we've got nothing better. If you're tossing that ruler out the window, then psychological age would be my plan B.
QUOTE Seems kind of important considering suicide rates among transgender folks.
Seems that rate's due not to someone getting the surgery, but to the others around them making their lives a living hell.
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Diogenes of Sinope:
"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:
"Better dead than smeg."
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| Post Number: 6
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TPRJones
I saw The Fault in our Stars opening night.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 12384
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jul. 16 2015,20:32 |
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It wouldn't be just bullying, at least not by a classical definition. Â There's the much more insidious "I love you but I hate what you are choosing and will never approve of it" from family members that can really screw up a kid if that kid is already having problems. Â As reasonable as such a statement is on the face of it, the fact that to the kid this isn't a choice - this is just who they are - makes the statement mean "I love you but I hate you and will never approve of you" to the kid.
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Vidi Perfutui Veni
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| Post Number: 8
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Leisher
Top 3%, yo.
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Posted on: Jul. 16 2015,20:51 |
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That reminds me of an episode of Will and Grace that annoyed me. (Yes, I know they all annoyed you Malcolm.)
Will's dad made a statement like, "I love you and support you, but gun to my head, I wish you were straight." Will got really bent out of shape. Then the dad died before they could make peace.
On one hand, I get where Will would be mad about the statement.
However, isn't being mad that your dad feels that way selfish? Aren't you making yourself a victim at that point? Is it really wrong for a parent to wish they had grand kids or wish their kids weren't saddled with things that might cause obstacles in their life that other folks don't have? Just because you exist and are gay, does that mean your parents no longer exist as anything other than accessories for you? They're not allowed to have feelings and whatnot? Do they also have to like all your favorite shows?
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Malcolm
I disagree.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 27168
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jul. 16 2015,21:08 |
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QUOTE Is it really wrong for a parent to wish they had grand kids or wish their kids weren't saddled with things that might cause obstacles in their life that other folks don't have?
Adoption. Â If it comes down to dealing with my sexuality versus lying about it and hiding it from everyone, I know which one is more of an "obstacle." Â Shit, I'd bet they'd have a lot fewer obstacles if they were born with supermodel or rocket scientist genes for a perfect body or brain.
QUOTE They're not allowed to have feelings and whatnot?
There's the expectation from the kids for love and acceptance regardless of who they are. Â When that parent decided to have a kid, one life got priority over another. Â This type of dealie played out in the last scene in About Schmidt except Jack Nicholson's daughter was marrying a dude he didn't like. Â Unless you're into designer babies, you don't get to pick jack shit. Â If you can't handle your son being gay, then don't knock your wife up.
Edited by Malcolm on Jul. 16 2015,21:10
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Diogenes of Sinope:
"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:
"Better dead than smeg."
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GORDON
90%
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Posted on: Jul. 16 2015,21:11 |
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I'm with Leisher. Wishing your kid had an easier path in life doesn't make you a dick, and the dad even prefaced it with "I still love and support you." And the adult child should have known better than to resent his dad for having feelings, but then the character WAS gay and to suggest he had control over his gay emotions is probably unrealistic.
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I don't give a fuck!
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| Post Number: 12
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Leisher
Top 3%, yo.
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 26651
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Posted on: Jul. 16 2015,21:12 |
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QUOTE But isn't a father telling their son that the way they were born was wrong also selfish?
Absolutely, but in my example, Will asked. He literally asked his father if he'd prefer him to be straight.
It's a catch 22. He didn't volunteer the information, but when asked, does he lie? Is he not entitled to have an opinion other than the one his kid wants to hear?
And granted, Will is an adult in that example.
QUOTE But the highest suicide rates are among transgender teens and I can understand them not being mature enough to properly handle that sort of thing from their parents. Especially if there's also the spectre of being suddenly homeless involved, since their parents are likely their only source of financial support at that age.
I cannot process a parent abandoning their child because the child is gay or transgender. It doesn't compute with me. I know it happens, but I can't get into the mindset that allows someone to turn on their own kid.
Although, if I'm being coldly scientific, there are many examples of this in nature among animals.
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| Post Number: 13
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| Post Number: 15
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Leisher
Top 3%, yo.
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 26651
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jul. 16 2015,21:32 |
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Stop posting so fast! 
After I post this, it's my last one tonight. I'm not even going to look at the thread again until morning.
QUOTE Adoption.
Not your blood. Yes, it's a legit option, but Darwin tells grandpa his bloodline being extended would be better.
QUOTE If it comes down to dealing with my sexuality versus lying about it and hiding it from everyone, I know which one is more of an "obstacle."
I don't think you do. None of us really do. Also, this statement depends on what year it is, even where you are, and the level of tolerance for said sexuality.
QUOTE Shit, I'd bet they'd have a lot fewer obstacles if they were born with supermodel or rocket scientist genes for a perfect body or brain.
Goes without saying.
QUOTE There's the expectation from the kids for love and acceptance regardless of who they are. When that parent decided to have a kid, one life got priority over another. This type of dealie played out in the last scene in About Schmidt except Jack Nicholson's daughter was marrying a dude he didn't like. Unless you're into designer babies, you don't get to pick jack shit. If you can't handle your son being gay, then don't knock your wife up.
But he got that love and acceptance! His dad simply stated that he would have preferred a straight kid for the reasons I've listed (I think...I don't really remember the episode's dialogue). Why is it his (the gay kid) way or the highway?
And while kids are super important, and the next generation of your blood, you still exist. In fact, it could be easily argued that kids are an 18 year distraction from YOUR life. (18 being arbitrary...) But that's a whole other topic, let's stick to the gay son/straight dad issue. It's far more interesting and topical.
Good discussions all over the place tonight. Maybe you all dream of beautiful boobs...if that's your thing...
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Malcolm
I disagree.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 27168
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jul. 16 2015,21:53 |
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QUOTE I don't think you do. None of us really do. Also, this statement depends on what year it is, even where you are, and the level of tolerance for said sexuality.
You dealings with other people tend to be more fucked up the less honest you are with yourself and can be with others, also seems to leads to more psychological complexes and neuroses.
QUOTE But he got that love and acceptance! His dad simply stated that he would have preferred a straight kid for the reasons I've listed
Then Will's being a whiny bitch, especially because he asked. Â But on the flip side, it's like saying, "Damn, I wish you were an NFL hall-of-famer that broke the record for the largest contract of all time," or, for a less extreme example, "Damn, I wish you followed in the footsteps of my profession. Â We've been [insert job here] for centuries."
Sorry to break the chain, but better to break it than be shackled by it.
QUOTE ...but Darwin tells grandpa his bloodline being extended would be better.
Darwin also tells me to fuck everything in sight because natural selection is survival of the most prolific (not necessarily fittest). That's attachment and bias toward one's own DNA. A very primitive feeling, there's nothing wrong with it, but it doesn't get to trump the main issue of it being someone else's life. Have all the opinions you want. Weaponizing them is generally when other people start calling you a dick and forgoing logic.
Edited by Malcolm on Jul. 16 2015,22:04
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Diogenes of Sinope:
"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:
"Better dead than smeg."
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| Post Number: 17
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| Post Number: 18
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Leisher
Top 3%, yo.
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 26651
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jul. 17 2015,07:24 |
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QUOTE You dealings with other people tend to be more fucked up the less honest you are with yourself and can be with others, also seems to leads to more psychological complexes and neuroses.
I'm not saying the other side is good. But dealing with psychological complexes and neuroses is better than being dead because a mob beat you to death or hung your ass.
QUOTE Then Will's being a whiny bitch, especially because he asked. But on the flip side, it's like saying, "Damn, I wish you were an NFL hall-of-famer that broke the record for the largest contract of all time," or, for a less extreme example, "Damn, I wish you followed in the footsteps of my profession. We've been [insert job here] for centuries."
I feel the same way. I just didn't know if I was right or wrong or if I could feel right or wrong on the topic. I told my wife while watching it that the writers pussied out by killing him before reaching a resolution to the dad's statement and Will's reaction.
I felt Will overreacted in a selfish way to his dad's honesty. I don't think his dad's comment was anti-gay at all and he clearly loved and supported his son. I need to watch that episode again because I'm wondering if he first stated he only cared if Will was happy and Will kind of dragged this truth out of him (really ringing a bell). In which case Will would be even more at fault.
I still understand why Will would be hurt by it, but I wouldn't understand if he refused to understand his dad's comment and why it's not offensive in the slightest.
QUOTE Darwin also tells me to fuck everything in sight because natural selection is survival of the most prolific (not necessarily fittest). That's attachment and bias toward one's own DNA. A very primitive feeling, there's nothing wrong with it, but it doesn't get to trump the main issue of it being someone else's life.
Of course the dad doesn't get to tell him who to fuck, but it certainly allows for him to have an opinion on who to fuck!
QUOTE Have all the opinions you want. Weaponizing them is generally when other people start calling you a dick and forgoing logic.
He did not weaponize it.
I went and dug it up. Here's the transcript and the blanket they refer to is a blanket George (Will's dad) gave to Grace because she's having a baby. It was Will's baby blanket.
SCENE VII: The Truman House, Kitchen
[AFTER DINNER. WILL IS AT THE SINK WASHING DISHES. GRACE ENTERS THE KITCHEN.]
GRACE: Why are you washing dishes? We haven't even had desert. There is desert, right?
WILL: We had desert.
GRACE: That cheese and fig thing? Ugh. Wasps... What's wrong with you? You pouted all through dinner. Is this about the blanket?
WILL: [HUSHED AND ANNOYED] Yes, of course it's about the blanket. I don't want to discuss it. I certainly don't want to discuss it with them.
[MARILYN AND GEORGE ENTER THE KITCHEN CARRYING THEIR PLATES.]
MARILYN: I am stuffed.
GEORGE: Uh, boy me too. Uh, I'm just going to go gas up the car. I'll be back in about five minutes.
[GEORGE PUTS THEIR PLATES ON THE COUNTER NEXT TO THE SINK.]
MARILYN: You and your rituals. You always have to fill the tank right after dinner.
GRACE: [QUIETLY TO GEORGE] Where you going?
GEORGE: [QUIETLY] Burrito place.
GRACE: [QUIETLY] Get me two.
GEORGE: You got it. [NORMAL, TO WILL] Will, you wanna go for a ride with the old man?
WILL: [SHORT] No thanks.
GEORGE: You okay?
WILL: [SNIPPY] I'm good.
GEORGE: Really? You barely said two words at dinner.
WILL: You want two words? Fine. I'll give you two words. My. Blanket.
GEORGE: Will, what does that mean? Are you upset I gave the blanket to Grace?
WILL: I'm upset that you didn't save it for me.
GEORGE: What do you want to do? You still want to sleep with that thing?
MARILYN: You know, he slept with it for so long, I finally had to tell him a black man robbed us and took it. Oh. Only now I realize how awful that sounds. I mean, today I would just say "a man." An Arab man.
WILL: I want my blanket so that I can give it to my baby.
GEORGE: Since when are you going to have a baby?
WILL: I'm not, but I might. One day.
GEORGE: Didn't occur to me.
WILL: [SCOFFS] There's a shocker. It didn't occur to you that your gay son might have kids.
GEORGE: Now, what does that mean? You want to have kids, have kids.
MARILYN: You know, I've got a bunch of blankets in the attic.
GRACE: You know what? I can take any one of those. And then Will, you can have this one back.
WILL: [ANGRY] That's not what this is about, Grace. It's about my father, after all these years, just assuming that I'm not gonna have kids because I'm gay.
GEORGE: Will, aren't you being a little dramatic?
WILL: Well, that's what we gays do, isn't it? Get overly dramatic.
GEORGE: Here we are, back in the gay minefield. The flowers are prettier, but the bombs are still there.
WILL: You think this is funny?
GEORGE: No, I think this is frustrating that every time you have a problem with me, it's because you're gay.
WILL: That's because me being gay is the problem. It's always been the problem! You keep saying you've accepted it, but every thing you do makes it obvious you haven't.
GEORGE: How dare you--
MARILYN: Who wants desert?
GEORGE: --talk to me like that. After all I've done to accept who you are.
WILL: All you've done? Wow. Is it that much work?
GRACE: He was just trying to do something nice for me--
WILL: Grace. Please stay out of this.
GEORGE: You know what? I don't need to stay here and have this conversation.
WILL: No, no, dad. We are finishing this!
MARILYN: Please, Will. Just stop this.
GEORGE: No, he doesn't want to stop. I think he's enjoying this.
WILL: You think I enjoy having a father who's ashamed of me?
GEORGE: Don't you put words in my mouth. I never said I was ashamed of you!
WILL: Then answer me this-- Would you, or would you not prefer that I was straight.
GRACE: Will, enough.
WILL: No. I want to hear him say it.
GEORGE: What? Do I think your life would be easier? Do I think you'd be happier?
WILL: So that's a yes!
GEORGE: I didn't say prefer!
WILL: No, but that's what you mean! You're just not saying the words.
GEORGE: Fine! You want the words? Yes. I'd prefer you weren't gay.
WILL: Thanks. Come on, Grace, we're leaving.
[WILL STORMS OUT OF THE ROOM.]
MARILYN: Oh please, don't go, Will. Not like this.
[MARILYN CHASES AFTER WILL.]
GRACE: [QUIETLY TO GEORGE] Well, um... Thanks for the blanket...
To me, Will's the asshole. He's pissed off because he's seeing slights in his dad's actions where they don't exist. He's causing the issue due to his own insecurities.
You could also argue that the whole thing is a metaphor for gays in the U.S. at that time.
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| Post Number: 19
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Malcolm
I disagree.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 27168
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jul. 17 2015,07:29 |
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Metaphor? Â Nah. Â I think Will's being a whiny, prima donna motherfucker beating the situation into a shape he can get "righteously" pissed at. It makes your brain produce the same chems as cocaine, which is why snow-nosers have a constant aire of spoiling for a fight about them.
Edited by Malcolm on Jul. 17 2015,07:30
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Diogenes of Sinope:
"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:
"Better dead than smeg."
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| Post Number: 20
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GORDON
90%
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 36125
Joined: Jun. 2004
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Posted on: Jul. 17 2015,08:15 |
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Reading that, I think Will is mad at himself because being gay pretty much means he WONT be creating a baby (yeah, other methods, whatever), and the baby blanket reminded him that other people dont think he will, either. I realize the actor is saying the words the writers wrote down, but still. That's pretty obvious he's a self-hating gay and he is projecting.
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I don't give a fuck!
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