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Leisher 
Top 3%, yo.
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 26651
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 13 2014,06:41 |
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California judge calls it bullshit and throws it out.
Teachers are pissed. Actually, teachers with tenure are pissed. Most of the educators I know haven't reached tenure and agree with this ruling.
Personally, I love this ruling. Fuck tenure.
I'll have been at my job for 10 years next June. I don't magically cross some line that allows me to fuck up or fuck off yet still keep my job. Nobody in any profession should ever reach a point where they no longer have to work, and especially not in a profession where others depend on you.
Edited by Leisher on Jun. 13 2014,06:41
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| Post Number: 2
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TPRJones
I saw The Fault in our Stars opening night.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 12384
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 13 2014,06:58 |
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There are a few higher-level academic settings where the whole tenure thing makes some sense. Harvard, Yale, and other bastions of higher education where professors need some protection from politically-motivated administrations to allow for the freedom to teach unpopular yet important political ideals and the like. Tenure can keep the liberal pc-obsessed administrators from firing the belligerent libertarian professor for failing to brainwash the students into their way of thinking, for example.
But tenure in public elementary and secondary schools? That's just stupid.
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Vidi Perfutui Veni
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Malcolm
I disagree.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 27168
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 13 2014,07:21 |
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Here.
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Diogenes of Sinope:
"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:
"Better dead than smeg."
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| Post Number: 4
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TheCatt
Top 2%
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Posts: 22951
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 13 2014,07:24 |
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If they get tenure, I want tenure.
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It's not me, it's someone else.
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| Post Number: 5
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Leisher
Top 3%, yo.
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 26651
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 13 2014,07:55 |
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QUOTE Here.
Never saw that, but honestly, this isn't a California pigeon hole thing. This is a national issue.
California dumping tenure is a move that will be followed everywhere.
QUOTE There are a few higher-level academic settings where the whole tenure thing makes some sense. Harvard, Yale, and other bastions of higher education where professors need some protection from politically-motivated administrations to allow for the freedom to teach unpopular yet important political ideals and the like. Tenure can keep the liberal pc-obsessed administrators from firing the belligerent libertarian professor for failing to brainwash the students into their way of thinking, for example.
I absolutely agree such protections need to be in place, but tenure wasn't the correct answer. This was too far the other way, and was negatively affecting students, and thus, our society as a whole.
Dump tenure, dump Common Core, dump the summer break, and dump programs that fund schools based on testing.
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| Post Number: 6
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| Post Number: 7
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Leisher
Top 3%, yo.
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 26651
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 13 2014,09:51 |
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QUOTE Summer is the only time of the year those teachers that work to keep current in their fields have the time to continue their education. Additionally getting a part of the summers off is one of the main reasons we have teachers, since the pay is so shitty. Plus, summers as a kid are an important time, IMO. Taking away the magic of summer and sending kids to school year round wouldn't give them any swaths of time to just be kids.
Those are perks for certain.
However, we're not all farmers anymore. Kids don't need that time off to help plow the fields. that lapse in education has been shown to be negative to the learning process. Many teachers complain that kids come back each year and don't remember anything. It's hard to build upon concepts taught the previous year, and then forgotten.
And I'm not in favor of just doing away with summer break, I want to shorten it and extend other breaks or add breaks and keep them all short.
So instead of three months off in summer, they get July, December, and two weeks in the spring and fall off. Or maybe just two week breaks every 3 months or 2 months or whatever.
The point is to drop the ridiculously long break. Japan does it, and they're kicking our ass.
As for the teachers, I'm sure multiple breaks instead of one long one would also hold a similar appeal. Schooling, however, is on them. IT people need to get certifications, which means lots of school time, yet they don't get time off to do it. So on this subject I'd say the same thing about them losing tenure: "Tough shit. Welcome to the real world where the rest of us live."
As for pay, they should be paid more, and honestly, we should have independent and anonymous (to prevent bribery and whatnot) audits of school districts to eliminate what I guarantee is a lot of waste. Many school boards are run by people with no economic background.
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| Post Number: 8
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TPRJones
I saw The Fault in our Stars opening night.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 12384
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 13 2014,09:56 |
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Okay, that's all reasonable. I concur.
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Vidi Perfutui Veni
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| Post Number: 9
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TPRJones
I saw The Fault in our Stars opening night.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 12384
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 13 2014,09:58 |
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(Leisher @ Jun. 13 2014,11:51)
QUOTE IT people need to get certifications, which means lots of school time, yet they don't get time off to do it.
How do you travel to the necessary educational symposiums if you have to be at work at the same time?
It being summer I've got several faculty off at these things this month. Â Most of them run Monday to Wednesday or so. Â It would be hard to have them teaching in a classroom at the same time they are across the country.
EDIT: Oh, and from the sound of it you won't like this but in many cases the school pays for it. Â Some of them are required in order to maintain accreditation, and when that's the case the school will pay for it. Â Besides, I don't think the faculty could afford them on their salaries, to be honest. Â $8,000 is a lot of money to come up with when your annual salary is less than $50k.
Edited by TPRJones on Jun. 13 2014,10:04
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Vidi Perfutui Veni
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| Post Number: 10
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Malcolm
I disagree.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 27168
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 13 2014,10:12 |
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QUOTE IT people need to get certifications, which means lots of school time, yet they don't get time off to do it.
I've never had to get certified in shit. Â I've had to learn new technologies, but no one's quizzing me.
QUOTE The point is to drop the ridiculously long break. Japan does it, and they're kicking our ass.
That's a small part.
Edited by Malcolm on Jun. 13 2014,10:14
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Diogenes of Sinope:
"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:
"Better dead than smeg."
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| Post Number: 11
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Leisher
Top 3%, yo.
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 26651
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 13 2014,11:01 |
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(TPRJones @ Jun. 13 2014,12:58)
QUOTE
(Leisher @ Jun. 13 2014,11:51)
QUOTE IT people need to get certifications, which means lots of school time, yet they don't get time off to do it. How do you travel to the necessary educational symposiums if you have to be at work at the same time? It being summer I've got several faculty off at these things this month. Â Most of them run Monday to Wednesday or so. Â It would be hard to have them teaching in a classroom at the same time they are across the country. EDIT: Oh, and from the sound of it you won't like this but in many cases the school pays for it. Â Some of them are required in order to maintain accreditation, and when that's the case the school will pay for it. Â Besides, I don't think the faculty could afford them on their salaries, to be honest. Â $8,000 is a lot of money to come up with when your annual salary is less than $50k.
Sign up for classes when we're not working. That usually means night classes.
The growth of online education will really help to improve the ability to school/train for folks who work.
Oh, and I totally agree that the school should pay for the training. My work pays for my training because they want me to get it. It's win-win, and another perk to my job. The only stipulation is I have to stay here another X amount of years after the training. Schools should get that out of anyone they train.
QUOTE I've never had to get certified in shit. I've had to learn new technologies, but no one's quizzing me.
So when your employer is offering you free school/training and certifications that make you more marketable you're too good for it or some shit? Brilliant.
It's not just IT people and teachers. Accountants have to go to school constantly too. Doctors need to continue their education through their career.
QUOTE That's a small part.
It is and it isn't.
Their school schedule reflects an attitude towards education that this country lacks.
We, as a society, need to stop acting like our kids can make grown up decisions, yet need tons of time off because they're kids, insisting they need college for any shitty job, and doing nothing while their education standards decline at the hands of stupid policies and out of control spending.
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| Post Number: 14
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Malcolm
I disagree.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 27168
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 13 2014,11:29 |
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(Vince @ Jun. 13 2014,13:27)
QUOTE
(Leisher @ Jun. 13 2014,11:51)
QUOTE The point is to drop the ridiculously long break. Japan does it, and they're kicking our ass. I'd wager money that their kicking our asses has much less to do with our extended summer break and everything to do with our diminished expectations of the students compared to them.
I'd vote for that.
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Diogenes of Sinope:
"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:
"Better dead than smeg."
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| Post Number: 15
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Leisher
Top 3%, yo.
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 26651
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 13 2014,11:35 |
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QUOTE My employer is tight as shit about paying for training. Several miracles have to occur in the proper order if I expect them to pay for so much as a webinar.
That sucks and that's on your employer being short sighted and shitty to its employees.
QUOTE I'd wager money that their kicking our asses has much less to do with our extended summer break and everything to do with our diminished expectations of the students compared to them.
Uh...I said that.
QUOTE Their school schedule reflects an attitude towards education that this country lacks.
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| Post Number: 16
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GORDON
90%
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 36125
Joined: Jun. 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 13 2014,12:19 |
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(Leisher @ Jun. 13 2014,14:35)
QUOTE QUOTE I'd wager money that their kicking our asses has much less to do with our extended summer break and everything to do with our diminished expectations of the students compared to them. Uh...I said that. QUOTE Their school schedule reflects an attitude towards education that this country lacks.
If parents want their kids to do well in school, they will make sure it happens. Â Single parent homes where the parent is too busy to pay attention, dual parent homes where both parents work and they are too busy to pay attention, inner city homes where the several kids don't know where their plethora of fathers are with a mother who doesn't give a shit, etc etc.
People* have been told they can do it all, alone, for a long time now, people have been told they need to live a lifestyle requiring both adults in the house work, but nobody has looked at how the kids suffer for it.
But we're seeing it now. Â You better check your white privilege and micro-aggressions.
* - I say "people" but I really mean women. Â They are told they can have a career and a family, alone, that's why god invented daycare for the 10 hours a day the mom is at work. Â Who gives a fuck if the kid grows up fucked up, mom needs to be empowered.
Edited by GORDON on Jun. 13 2014,12:20
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I don't give a fuck!
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| Post Number: 17
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Malcolm
I disagree.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 27168
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 13 2014,12:51 |
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QUOTE That sucks and that's on your employer being short sighted and shitty to its employees.
We use Oracle for our DB. Â We run thousands, if not tends of thousands of queries a day across a couple environments. Â Some of our queries suck. Â Hard. Â No one's got a plan to fix them. Â No one knows how to fix them. Â Some Oracle guru had a training session going called "How to write queries in Oracle so you're not smashing your head against the DBMS optimizer" or something. Â That was in February of this year. Â I was told the 2014 training budget wouldn't be set by then, so there was no cash. Â That marks the last time I'm ever requesting cash from the training budget. If you're two calendar months behind reality, then fuck you.
Fuck if they don't try to shove "internal training" down my throat, though. Â Like the company-approved take on the fucked up, mutant version of Agile Methodology they claim to use. Â Or the shitty security training that the product I work on violates directly in numerous ways.
Edited by Malcolm on Jun. 13 2014,12:52
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Diogenes of Sinope:
"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:
"Better dead than smeg."
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| Post Number: 18
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Leisher
Top 3%, yo.
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 26651
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 13 2014,13:06 |
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QUOTE If parents want their kids to do well in school, they will make sure it happens. Single parent homes where the parent is too busy to pay attention, dual parent homes where both parents work and they are too busy to pay attention, inner city homes where the several kids don't know where their plethora of fathers are with a mother who doesn't give a shit, etc etc.
People* have been told they can do it all, alone, for a long time now, people have been told they need to live a lifestyle requiring both adults in the house work, but nobody has looked at how the kids suffer for it.
But we're seeing it now. You better check your white privilege and micro-aggressions.
* - I say "people" but I really mean women. They are told they can have a career and a family, alone, that's why god invented daycare for the 10 hours a day the mom is at work. Who gives a fuck if the kid grows up fucked up, mom needs to be empowered.
I don't think that's the most well written argument, and comes off as mildly misogynistic, but you are dead on.
If a woman (or man) wants to work, great. However, don't pretend that makes you better than someone who chooses to stay home with their kids. In fact, studies say that kid with the stay at home parent has the brighter future than the daycare kid.
That's another contradiction from the typical liberal message: People should have a right to choose what they want to do! But a woman who stays at home to be a mom is wasting her life...
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| Post Number: 19
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TheCatt
Top 2%
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 22951
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 13 2014,13:14 |
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(Malcolm @ Jun. 13 2014,15:51)
QUOTE QUOTE That sucks and that's on your employer being short sighted and shitty to its employees. We use Oracle for our DB. Â We run thousands, if not tends of thousands of queries a day across a couple environments. Â Some of our queries suck. Â Hard. Â No one's got a plan to fix them. Â No one knows how to fix them. Â Some Oracle guru had a training session going called "How to write queries in Oracle so you're not smashing your head against the DBMS optimizer" or something. Â That was in February of this year.
You need an Oracle consultant. Oh hey, I'm an Oracle consultant. Do they hire consultants?
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It's not me, it's someone else.
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Malcolm
I disagree.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 27168
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 13 2014,13:21 |
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(TheCatt @ Jun. 13 2014,15:14)
QUOTE
(Malcolm @ Jun. 13 2014,15:51)
QUOTE QUOTE That sucks and that's on your employer being short sighted and shitty to its employees. We use Oracle for our DB. Â We run thousands, if not tends of thousands of queries a day across a couple environments. Â Some of our queries suck. Â Hard. Â No one's got a plan to fix them. Â No one knows how to fix them. Â Some Oracle guru had a training session going called "How to write queries in Oracle so you're not smashing your head against the DBMS optimizer" or something. Â That was in February of this year. You need an Oracle consultant. Â Oh hey, I'm an Oracle consultant. Â Do they hire consultants?
We consulted Oracle. Â They said they could do nothing. It's Oracle, so I assume they're just being lazy, though.
Edited by Malcolm on Jun. 13 2014,13:21
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Diogenes of Sinope:
"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:
"Better dead than smeg."
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