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Topic: Fred Phelps near death< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
 Post Number: 1
Malcolm Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 17 2014,09:50  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
Maybe.

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"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."

Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 17 2014,10:33 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
I'm curious about the story of his being excommunicated from his church.
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Leisher Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 17 2014,10:41 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
He's in Hospice, but "not near death"?

Someone doesn't know what Hospice is...
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TPRJones Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 17 2014,10:52 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
I wish I believed in a hell so that I could be happy to know he would be burning for all eternity soon.  The lack of eternal punishment for your most hated foes is kind of a downside to atheism.

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...the elder Phelps was ex-communicated by his own church last year...

This does make me feel better, though.

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 17 2014,11:04 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

(TPRJones @ Mar. 17 2014,12:52)
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I wish I believed in a hell so that I could be happy to know he would be burning for all eternity soon.  The lack of eternal punishment for your most hated foes is kind of a downside to atheism.

As an atheist, what about what they do bothers you?
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TPRJones Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 17 2014,11:12 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
They cause - and inspire others to cause - a shit-ton of misery for people who are alive.  As a human being that bothers me.

What would being an atheist have to do with that?  Are you implying atheists are incapable of having compassion for others?

Edited by TPRJones on Mar. 17 2014,11:13

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 17 2014,11:27 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

(TPRJones @ Mar. 17 2014,13:12)
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Are you implying atheists are incapable of having compassion for others?

Not at all.  I'm genuinely curious is all.  I believe in God, and they anger me because of that belief.  I think they pervert my beliefs and those of Christians that are burying their beloved.  At the same time, someone not of my faith saying I'm going to hell doesn't bother me at all.  Muslims saying Allah will flay me... not a bother.  A Muslim saying that to a Hindu... doesn't bother me.  They have to have the comfort of their own faith.

In my life I've only met (on a personal relationship level) one atheist that seemed 100% congruent with his atheism.  He was completely respectful of others beliefs, and would sit quietly while a coworker said grace over his lunch.  He could state his position without venom.

One of the things I've noticed (especially in AA meetings) among people that claim to be atheist is... they sure do hate God a lot to not believe in him.
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Leisher Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 17 2014,11:29 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
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One of the things I've noticed (especially in AA meetings) among people that claim to be atheist is... they sure do hate God a lot to not believe in him.


I can see that.

However, I think you have to allow for many not hating God, but hating the men who claim to speak for God.
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Malcolm Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 17 2014,11:31 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
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Got it all wrong, holy man. I absolutely believe in God... And I absolutely hate the fucker.

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Diogenes of Sinope:

"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."

"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."

Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:

"Better dead than smeg."
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TPRJones Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 17 2014,11:37 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
What Leisher said.  I can get rather worked up on religious issues, but it's not because I secretly believe in God.  It's because the actual harm done to actual people by some who claim to be doing so in the name of God get me pissed off.

Even if there were a God, I would still refuse to believe he's the petty worship-hungry asshole that Fred Phelps preaches.

EDIT: I honestly have no problem with religion in general principle and would be respectful if people had the decency to stop using their beliefs to hurt others.  But my experience has been that the majority of religious people have a very hard time with that concept.  Not just some but the majority of religious people I have known seem to be determined to force their beliefs on others through enacting laws, or use their beliefs as a cudgel to hurt those they disagree with wherever they can.  Even as fervently anti-religious as I sometimes get, I still maintain I'm far more "respectful" of someone's religion then the vast majority of religious people are of the people that don't agree with them.

Edited by TPRJones on Mar. 17 2014,11:45

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Malcolm Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 17 2014,11:46 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
I look at it from one of two perspectives:

i) There is no god and all of the rules we make up surrounding such a being come from inside our own psyches.
ii) There is a god.

If the second case is correct, I can't imagine him being anything except cosmically indifferent at best or malevolent at worst.

Edited by Malcolm on Mar. 17 2014,11:46

--------------
Diogenes of Sinope:

"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."

"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."

Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:

"Better dead than smeg."
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Vince Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 17 2014,11:48 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

(Leisher @ Mar. 17 2014,13:29)
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However, I think you have to allow for many not hating God, but hating the men who claim to speak for God.

But why hate men that claim to speak for a god you don't believe in?

If they claim to speak for God and they aren't advocating infringing on the rights of someone else, who cares?  If they claim to be speaking for a god you don't believe in, why get all bent out of shape?

I don't hate Muslims that claim to speak for Allah, until they start killing and maiming people.  And even then, I don't hate them.  They need to be taken out because their twisted beliefs are a danger to others.  But I don't hate them.

If someone says Vishnu hates me because I'm left handed, I don't care.  If someone says the God of Abraham hates me because I'm left handed, I want to have a conversation as to why as a Christian (or Jew) they'd think that.

Edited by Vince on Mar. 17 2014,11:50
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TPRJones Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 17 2014,11:50 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
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If they claim to speak for God and they aren't advocating infringing on the rights of someone else, who cares?

I have put the problem in bold for you.  My personal experience is that when someone religious is talking about someone else that doesn't share their beliefs, the part in bold is most likely false to one degree or another.

QUOTE
And even then, I don't hate them.  They need to be taken out because their twisted beliefs are a danger to others.  But I don't hate them.

You are a better person than I am.  But you make it sounds almost clinical, like you are shooting a rabid dog instead of dealing with a person who has decided to kill and maim others.  I wouldn't hate a rabid dog, but I do hate a suicide bomber.  Perhaps we see different amounts of personal agency in their decisions?

Edited by TPRJones on Mar. 17 2014,11:57

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Malcolm Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 17 2014,12:37 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
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If they claim to be speaking for a god you don't believe in, why get all bent out of shape?

It's not who they claim to speak for, it's the rights, authority, and destiny they think it gives them.

QUOTE
If someone says Vishnu hates me because I'm left handed, I don't care.  If someone says the God of Abraham hates me because I'm left handed, I want to have a conversation as to why as a Christian (or Jew) they'd think that.

I don't mind having that talk, either.  But it always seems to go back to some religious doctrine that is unquestionable according to their beliefs.

QUOTE
They need to be taken out because their twisted beliefs are a danger to others.  But I don't hate them.

The ones that do it because they've never been given a chance to learn anything except those fucked up thoughts, I've got a modicum of sympathy for them.  The others, not so much.

--------------
Diogenes of Sinope:

"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."

"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."

Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:

"Better dead than smeg."
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Vince Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 17 2014,13:42 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

(TPRJones @ Mar. 17 2014,13:50)
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If they claim to speak for God and they aren't advocating infringing on the rights of someone else, who cares?

I have put the problem in bold for you.  My personal experience is that when someone religious is talking about someone else that doesn't share their beliefs, the part in bold is most likely false to one degree or another.

I go back to the original question about these church goers and the funerals.  What rights are they infringing on?  I just have trouble seeing where an atheist would feel the need to feel one way or the other.  Consider two kids.  One says his invisible friend doesn't like the other's fancy pants brother.  I would think the atheist response would be to feel the second kid is stupid for believing in the first kids' invisible friend.

QUOTE
You are a better person than I am.  But you make it sounds almost clinical, like you are shooting a rabid dog instead of dealing with a person who has decided to kill and maim others.  I wouldn't hate a rabid dog, but I do hate a suicide bomber.  Perhaps we see different amounts of personal agency in their decisions?
to me putting down the suicide bomber is a lot like putting down a rabid dog.  Now they guy that convinces him to strap on the bomb while thinking he's way too important to give his life for the cause is another matter.  Because that one doesn't even believe in the dogma he's spouting.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 17 2014,13:46 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

(Malcolm @ Mar. 17 2014,14:37)
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If someone says Vishnu hates me because I'm left handed, I don't care.  If someone says the God of Abraham hates me because I'm left handed, I want to have a conversation as to why as a Christian (or Jew) they'd think that.

I don't mind having that talk, either.  But it always seems to go back to some religious doctrine that is unquestionable according to their beliefs.

Like I said, if they're of the Judeo/Christian faith, then I'm curious as to why they think that (as I consider myself Christian).  Otherwise, "if it neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket"... I don't really care.

Edited by Vince on Mar. 17 2014,13:46
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 17 2014,14:01 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
There are a bajillion different denominations of Christians.  Hell, there are even non-denominational ones.  Part of my skepticism for organized religion comes from the fact I don't think you're getting millions, thousands, hundreds, or even dozens of people to agree to a vision of the purpose of life, the powers that be, the afterlife, etc., without:
i) severely limiting the scope of your beliefs OR
ii) making statements that are vague, beige, impractical, and often contradictory.

--------------
Diogenes of Sinope:

"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."

"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."

Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:

"Better dead than smeg."
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Vince Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 17 2014,14:06 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
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I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did.
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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 17 2014,14:39 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

(Vince @ Mar. 17 2014,15:42)
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I go back to the original question about these church goers and the funerals.

Admittedly my indignity at what the WBC does at funerals is minimal.  I find it distasteful and disrespectful to be interfering with the grief of others.  I find it disgusting in the way that I find vultures to be disgusting - with the notable exception that vultures perform a useful function.  But it is ultimately mostly harmless because in those situations they aren't getting through to anyone in a meaningful way.

I have more problem with them frequently and loudly telling gay kids to go kill themselves.  Some of those kids get enough of that already from their parents, they don't need WBC reinforcing their problems.

Edited by TPRJones on Mar. 17 2014,14:40

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PostIcon Posted on: Mar. 17 2014,14:53 Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE

(TPRJones @ Mar. 17 2014,16:39)
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I have more problem with them frequently and loudly telling gay kids to go kill themselves.  Some of those kids get enough of that already from their parents, they don't need WBC reinforcing their problems.

Heh... I was told continuously in high school to not smoke, not drink, do my homework and clean my room... by people that meant a whole lot more to me than folks I didn't know from a church I didn't attend.

I would think they are negligible with the gay kids, too.  If not, they have issues bigger than these idiots.
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