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GORDON 
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Posted on: Jun. 29 2013,10:20 |
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Just a random thought I have been thinking about:
I have experienced that since I became a parent, I look at the world from a different angle... where once in my youth I called to war (to quote Thor), I now have different priorities that are more about self preservation of my genetic line than of changing the world. To nutshell it.
I have done some reading lately that reinforces my own thoughts on the matter. The hypothesis was put forward that young people want to change the world to prove they belong in it. They certainly are not born with an innate wisdom that the olds just don't get, after all, so they tell the world HEY LOOK AT ME with progress for the sake of progress. Mature parents want the world to be stable because, since they have had children, they KNOW they belong in the world, they are now part of humanity for the long haul, and now it is time to raise them with as little danger as possible.
Thoughts?
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I don't give a fuck!
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Malcolm
I disagree.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 27168
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 29 2013,15:51 |
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I don't want to change the world to prove I belong.
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Diogenes of Sinope:
"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:
"Better dead than smeg."
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Troy
Group: Privateers
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Posted on: Jun. 29 2013,16:44 |
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Ban childbirth, go progress!
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Malcolm
I disagree.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 27168
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 30 2013,09:51 |
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(GORDON @ Jun. 29 2013,19:41)
QUOTE
(Malcolm @ Jun. 29 2013,18:51)
QUOTE I don't want to change the world to prove I belong. then why
Firstly, not every action I take is directed at the world at large, or even at all. Secondly, why do I need a reason, or even a valid one?
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Diogenes of Sinope:
"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:
"Better dead than smeg."
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| Post Number: 7
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GORDON
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Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 36125
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Posted on: Jun. 30 2013,10:43 |
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(Malcolm @ Jun. 30 2013,12:51)
QUOTE
(GORDON @ Jun. 29 2013,19:41)
QUOTE
(Malcolm @ Jun. 29 2013,18:51)
QUOTE I don't want to change the world to prove I belong. then why Firstly, not every action I take is directed at the world at large, or even at all. Secondly, why do I need a reason, or even a valid one?
So........
you live in a haze of perpetual adolescence?
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I don't give a fuck!
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Malcolm
I disagree.
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Posted on: Jun. 30 2013,10:58 |
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Stop projecting your Hayden Christiansen angst on to me.
No, I just don't ascribe deep motivation or meaning to most things I do, nor do I worry myself with doing so. I do what I do because I am what I am. Once I find the world non-absurd, I may reflect further.
QUOTE According to one story, Diogenes [of Sinope] went to the Oracle at Delphi to ask for its advice and was told that he should "deface the currency”. Following the debacle in Sinope, Diogenes decided that the oracle meant that he should deface the political currency rather than actual coins. He traveled to Athens and made it his life's goal to challenge established customs and values.
If tradition is really solidified and practical, it ought to have no trouble with a periodic test of its mettle.
Edited by Malcolm on Jun. 30 2013,11:06
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Diogenes of Sinope:
"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:
"Better dead than smeg."
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GORDON
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Posts: 36125
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Posted on: Jun. 30 2013,11:02 |
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I'm just saying when you are responsible to no one or nothing except yourself... isn't that pretty much a life of perpetual adolescence?
Edited by GORDON on Jun. 30 2013,11:05
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Malcolm
I disagree.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 27168
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 30 2013,11:09 |
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(GORDON @ Jun. 30 2013,13:02)
QUOTE I'm just saying when you are responsible to no one or nothing except yourself... isn't that pretty much a life of perpetual adolescence?
If you'd like to twist that into sufficient cause, then sure, it's your psyche, your rules.
My brain doesn't even register your premise as possible, though, so the implication doesn't even have meaning for me.
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Diogenes of Sinope:
"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:
"Better dead than smeg."
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GORDON
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Posted on: Jul. 01 2013,11:43 |
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(TPRJones @ Jul. 01 2013,13:17)
QUOTE QUOTE They certainly are not born with an innate wisdom that the olds just don't get, after all, I 100% disagree. Well, okay, no, not "born with". But youngsters grow up in a different world from their parents so they are themselves different, with a new understanding and a fresh perspective that the older generation is almost universally incapable of comprehending.
So, you're saying that a clean-slate mind trumps wisdom?
What is it about humanity that changes so radically from one generation to the next? Technology advancements just make it easier to throw a stone or project your voice. "People" don't change all that much, they still eat and shit and fuck and are lazy and productive and hateful and forgiving. That never changes. So why are the inexperienced better at steering than the experienced, in your reasoning?
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TheCatt
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Posted on: Jul. 01 2013,12:05 |
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I'm with Gordon on this latest one. People don't change that much, society doesn't change that much. Does it change? Sure. But not nearly at the pace of reinventing every generation.
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It's not me, it's someone else.
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TPRJones
I saw The Fault in our Stars opening night.
Group: Privateers
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Posted on: Jul. 01 2013,12:06 |
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QUOTE So, you're saying that a clean-slate mind trumps wisdom?
Yes and no. It seems that each generation is more tolerant than the one before and young people are much more willing to learn and understand new things instead of clinging to their traditions and preconceptions. Wisdom is a good thing, but also something very few people (both old and young) have, and seems to be pretty much independent of age so is irrelevant to this discussion. My experience has been that young people are sometimes capable of understanding the viewpoint of the elderly, but the reverse is much more rare.
People don't change all that much over time in an evolutionary sense, no, but society does. And the pace has accelerated. If you told my grandfather when he was young that one day a black man would be President and gays would marry he'd have 1) not believed you and then possibly 2) punched you for saying things he considered horribly offensive. I think the fact that such things generally no longer lead to violence is a good thing. And it's not just about social issues but about perspective; how much time did you spend chatting with people from around the globe when you were growing up? Did you frequently spend your time reading reference materials like encyclopedias? People do a lot more than spend time eating and pooping; they also seek entertainment and these days that often comes with a side-dish of learning. Ours did, too, but it was different; we probably spent a lot more time learning social niceties by hanging out with friends and less learning about global politics. It's not that theirs is now better but just different, and it's always good to have new and different perspectives available to approach the world with along side the older ones.
In short: if you automatically write off change and new things as bad, then you are part of the problem and probably an old person.
Edited by TPRJones on Jul. 01 2013,12:07
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Vidi Perfutui Veni
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GORDON
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Posted on: Jul. 01 2013,12:08 |
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(TPRJones @ Jul. 01 2013,13:20)
QUOTE QUOTE I'm just saying when you are responsible to no one or nothing except yourself... isn't that pretty much a life of perpetual adolescence? No. Having a job and making your own way in the world is hardly adolescence. You don't have to spawn children to be a responsible adult. Now, if you will include an allowance and free room and board and stuff like that, then we can talk.
I've been thinking about this statement for the last few hours.
Let me begin by saying that this conversation is not intended to be a personal attack on anyone in particular, I am just mentally masturbating about the meaning of life, where it is pretty much probably to be right and wrong at the same time, in my opinion. I know I am not offending Malcolm because his brain doesn't register my premise as being possible, but like I said, not attacking anyone.
I don't know that having a job gives a life meaning. It puts food on the table and a roof over your head, and it means that no one is taking care of you, but I don't know that it does anything but serve ones self. 99.9% of all jobs are meaningless, in the long term. No great works of art are being created. No lives are being saved or even changed. Thousands or millions of other people could be plugged into that same job and get it done... "the cemeteries are full of people who thought themselves irreplaceable." When one dies, for most people no one will remember them for the awesome way they filed their TPS reports on time, every time. While being capable of holding a job and paying your own bills means one is self sufficient, I don't think it goes as far as "this means I am part of civilization."
I am going to try to remember a passage of a book I read last month... I have burned through about 20 in the last 3 months, and I don't remember which it was:
On the subject of science fiction literature (paraphrased from memory):
"Not only do they have no parents, science fiction heroes never seem to marry or have kids. Most romantic heroes of science fiction novels are perpetual adolescents, lone rangers wandering the universe avoiding commitments. This is not surprising... these heroes are invariable going through the adolescent phase of life. The child phase is the time of complete dependence on others to create our identity and our worldview. Little children gladly accept even the strangest stories that others tell them, because they lack either the context or confidence to doubt. They go along because they don't know how to be alone, physically or intellectually.
Gradually, however, children catch a glimpse of the world that is different from how they perceived it, and they break away from the vestiges of parental control, much as a baby bird breaks away from the last fragment of its egg. The romantic hero is unconnected. He belongs to no community, he is wandering from place to place, doing good, but then moving on. This is the life of an adolescent, full of passion, intensity, magic, and infinite possibility, but lacking responsibility, rarely expecting to have to stay and bear the consequences of error. Everything is played at twice the speed and twice the volume in the adolescent - the romantic - life.
Only when the loneliness becomes unbearable do adolescents root themselves. It may not be the community they came from. Many fail at adulthood and constantly reach back to the freedom and passion of adolescence. But those who achieve it are the ones who create civilization."
I'll let that get shot the hell down without being contemplated before I ask any followup questions, and I might actually give up since the only people answering are the people without wives and kids, and it begins to feel like I am on a crusade or passing moral judgments or something. Which I aint. because i don't care that much. Was just thinking deep thoughts and making conversation.
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| Post Number: 17
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GORDON
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Posted on: Jul. 01 2013,12:12 |
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(TPRJones @ Jul. 01 2013,15:06)
QUOTE My experience has been that young people are sometimes capable of understanding the viewpoint of the elderly, but the reverse is much more rare.
Ha. 100% disagree. The young can't understand the elderly, because they have not been elderly. The elderly have all been young, they remember it, and therefor they are quick to dismiss their thoughts as fucking idiotic.
I KNOW I was an idiot at 20. I know I was less of an idiot, but still an idiot, at 30. Thankfully, at 40 I have learned from this, and realize I am probably an idiot now, too, so I hopefully I wont be too shocked at 50.
But yeah, there is a difference between understanding another person's point of view, and being too old to waste time with the foolishness of it.
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TPRJones
I saw The Fault in our Stars opening night.
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Posted on: Jul. 01 2013,12:16 |
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The only response I can think of that you might consider would be this list of - by your definition - adolescents with no meaning to their lives: Socrates, Hannibal, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Virgil, Jesus Christ, the emperor Hadrian, Gregory the Great, the Venerable Bede, St. Boniface, Hildebrand, Abelard and Heloise, Joan of Arc, Savonarola, Erasmus, Leonardo da Vinci, Queen Catherine Howard, Lady Jane Grey, Mary I, Elizabeth I, Henry III of France, Queen Christina of Sweden, Newton, William III and Mary II, Charles II of Spain, Alexander Pope, Frederick the Great of Prussia, Charlotte Corday, Alexander I of Russia, George Washington, Jane Austen, John Keats, Jane and Thomas Carlyle, Pio Nono, Florence Nightingale, Emily Bronte, George Elliot, Henry James, George Bernard Shaw, Vincent van Gogh, Lenin, Sydney and Beatrice Webb, Adolf Hitler, the Duke and Duchess of Windsor, Frieda Kahlo, Edward Heath, Nowell Coward, and Anne Frank.
QUOTE 99.9% of all jobs are meaningless, in the long term. No great works of art are being created. No lives are being saved or even changed.
That's because 99.9% of all great art and great actions that make a difference weren't done as part of a job. In almost all cases having a job is just about paying the bills, it's what you do in your free time when you aren't working to pay the bills that really makes the impact. And I'd argue that having kids gives you less free time, thus reducing your potential to impact history.
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Vidi Perfutui Veni
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TPRJones
I saw The Fault in our Stars opening night.
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Posted on: Jul. 01 2013,12:17 |
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QUOTE I KNOW I was an idiot at 20. I know I was less of an idiot, but still an idiot, at 30. Thankfully, at 40 I have learned from this, and realize I am probably an idiot now, too, so I hopefully I wont be too shocked at 50.
Yeah, see, there you are unusual. Most old people have forgotten how stupid they were, which puts them on an even footing there with the young. Except with fewer still-functioning brain cells.
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Vidi Perfutui Veni
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