Topic: MMORPGs + friends
started by: Leisher
Posted by Leisher on Aug. 01 2005,10:56
The < Penny Arcade > strip for Aug 1st called "Just When I Get Out" is a pretty one. It's exactly how I felt after leaving UO whenever I talked to Gordo or Cake.
Posted by Troy on Aug. 01 2005,12:10
I keep looking at the reviews on the latest Big MMORPGs, thinking "If it has a good PVP system, lots of replayablility and a good fanbase, I'll dive in headfirst again."Can't say I've found anything since UO, Shadowbane was fun for a while, but I couldn't spend enough time as it was that first crazy year in College.
I've looked on the horizon too, nothing coming as far as a new MMORPG that would fit the bill. All the current big ones are a bit too Carebear oriented.
There are a few single player games that look pretty good while I wait, but I can't help but miss what UO was.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 01 2005,12:29
They've pussied out considerably.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 01 2005,13:54
It's amazing to me that so many game developers fail to understand the risk/reward concept.
Posted by TheCatt on Aug. 01 2005,19:29
Heh.A game with punishment would drive away those who suck. That does not benefit developers who wish to stay employed. Therefore, I counter, they do understand the risk/reward concept.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 01 2005,19:37
I disagree, because the game has no staying power for someone like me, who cancelled his SWG account after 3 months because there was no risk.I paid for a UO account for about... 5 years.
Posted by mbilderback on Aug. 02 2005,06:53
One word for you guys who want to get away from the carebear MMORPGs.Eve
Check it out at < www.eve-online.com. >
Free to download, std monthly rates. Free to try out for 2 weeks.
Posted by mbilderback on Aug. 02 2005,06:56
I started by plaing Evercrack, after a couple of years, I got sick of the fantasy thing and my friends all drug me over to City of Heroes. Now there's a carebear BS MMORPG. I played that for about 5-6 months before becoming so incredibly bored with the same old shit day in and day out that I had to quit. I went on the hunt for a non-fantasy MMORPG with more RP.I ended up at Eve, so far 3 months and still happy, got in a good Corp.
Oh yeah, I had a short, disasterous jaunt with Neocron in there because it was $5 to buy and that included the first month. It didn't make it 3 months.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 02 2005,09:06
So... Eve... full pvp?
Posted by mbilderback on Aug. 02 2005,09:20
Full PVP granted a few things. First off, there are over 500 different solar systems, with about 50 different places of interest in each, just to give you an idea of the size of the world. Only 1 server, everyone plays on the same server.PVP is always allowed, however in systems with a security rating of 0.5-1.0, the local police force called CONCORD will come smack your bitch ass up. The VAST majority of the universe is 0.4-0.0 space. PVP is free and open here.
Also, if you are in a corp, two things for PVP change.
1. A corpmate can ALWAYS PVP you, so you can train each other in 1.0 space if you want or straight up fight each other, whatever.
2. If your corp is at war with another corp, PVP is open anywhere between the warring corps.
Posted by mbilderback on Aug. 02 2005,09:25
I consider 0.5-1.0 space to be like cities were in UO.Also, they have things called POS's or Player Owned Stations. I.E. you can run your own space station. Pretty sweet. If PVP is your thing, you can join up with a PVP only 0.0 space corp. All in all, it has a little of everything for everyone. You can play the entire game without shooting a shot and have a good time because their market system is so in depth. You can literally trade commodities, ship parts, etc between systems and areas of space to make profits if that's your thing. You can mine ore from asteroids if that's your thing. You can follow a life of crime and pirate miners, traders, and others if that's your thing. You can manufacture, or refine, or ..... The list goes on.
Also, as far as risk/reward goes, how's this strike you for their POV on the subject:
Mining is pretty low risk (NPC rats only) in 'Empire Space' (Anywhere that's 0.5-1.0 security rating). The lower the security status of the system, the more profitable the mining... I.E. the more rare the minerals, the higher the concentrations and the better the payoff, but it's also higher risk.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 02 2005,09:54
Mayhaps worth looking into. I'm somewhat jaded, though, in my opinions of fucking MMOGs.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 02 2005,10:01
And the other side of the pvp coin.... when you kill another player, are they fully lootable? No bullshit "insurance" or "binding" or anything?Basically, are there serious consequences for death?
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 02 2005,10:09
What about fucking blue healers? In town, what's to stop d3wDz0rZ from healing punks I'm trying to ax? Can they? Do they then flag to me? My entire guild?
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 02 2005,10:10
| (Malcolm @ Aug. 02 2005,13:09) | |
| Q U O T E | What about fucking blue healers? In town, what's to stop d3wDz0rZ from healing punks I'm trying to ax? Can they? Do they then flag to me? My entire guild? |
That always was an annoying problem in UO, wasn't it.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 02 2005,10:30
| (GORDON @ Aug. 02 2005,10:10) | |||||
| Q U O T E |
That always was an annoying problem in UO, wasn't it. | ||||
They still weren't as bad as the goddamned NPKs. Fuckers would cast summon creature right next to an EV or something. EV would kill whatever it was killing & turn on the summoned critter, you'd flag grey & have six ass-bastards gang-raping you w\ primed paras, ebs, & efs.
Yeah, it kinda pissed me off.
Posted by Leisher on Aug. 02 2005,11:32
See, the early days of UO were the shit. Too bad EA fucked everything up.
It just struck me that since EA is not putting together a UO2, and all their other online properties are failing, EA should simply release "UO: the PK years".
They should drop the client back to the first year, fix the exploits, but allow the gameplay that existed back then. They can run their normal UO world with the pussy customers and have the PK UO world available for those who loved the game for what it was originally intended to be.
I remember when they came out with that bullshit server for "veteran" players. I knew it would fail as it still wasn't what their original customers wanted. They want the Wild West feel of the original.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 02 2005,11:34
Yep. They had to fire Garriot in order to destroy the game.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 02 2005,11:38
| (GORDON @ Aug. 02 2005,11:34) | |
| Q U O T E | Yep. They had to fire Garriot in order to destroy the game. |
Wasn't he fired cos of that mysterious Project X or Tabula Rasa thing he was working on?
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 02 2005,11:39
| (Malcolm @ Aug. 02 2005,14:38) | |||||
| Q U O T E |
Wasn't he fired cos of that mysterious Project X or Tabula Rasa thing he was working on? | ||||
That wasn't my understanding. I thought he started that after the duration of his non-compete agreement expired.
My "reading between the lines" was that OSI wanted to Trammel up the game, and Lord British was against that. So Garriot had to go.
Posted by Leisher on Aug. 02 2005,11:44
No, he went to go work on that after he left EA.I know that he was unhappy with how UO was being shaped. He believed it should have been up to the players to shape the world, not the developers.
He was right.
The game was an addiction when the threat of PKs loomed. I left right before it got nerfed.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 02 2005,11:54
It's beyond fucked up today. My guild used to run THE vendor place on LS. We made a fucking killing. I think stratics still has the fucking place listed. I'll link it later whilst not "working" on my Mac.
Posted by Troy on Aug. 02 2005,12:01
I thought he got canned because the fool built a castle and declared himself a monarch or something.
Posted by mbilderback on Aug. 02 2005,12:23
| (GORDON @ Aug. 02 2005,12:01) | |
| Q U O T E | And the other side of the pvp coin.... when you kill another player, are they fully lootable? No bullshit "insurance" or "binding" or anything? Basically, are there serious consequences for death? |
Ok, here's how the game world handles death. You have a basic low level clone that can hold so many skill points, it costs more and more money the more skill points you have. So when you are podded (they blow up your ship first, then you have an escape pod, they have to blow that up to kill your character) your clone gets activated and you have to buy another. This isn't too costly unless you have attribute enhancing electronics in your character's brain, then you can loose millions in implants.
As for the ship, you can 'insure' your ship, but it works like it does in real-life. You insure for a couple of months and it costs about 1/4 the price of the ship so it's no small cost AND you cannot insure cargo, weapons, or other modules. For instance, I lost a ship a little while back. It cost 38m to buy the ship and had approx 5m more in modules. It was uninsured, so I only got 8m back. Luckily the corp was able to provide a replacement.
If I had spent the 10m or so to fully insure the thing (There are varrying levels of insurance) I would only have gotten approx 38m back, so net I'm out 15m.
There are REAL losses for dying. You can loose months worth of skill training if you don't keep up your clone. It will ALWAYS cost you money, usually a lot.
When I do trading, I will take out an Industrial ship, no guns, purely made for hauling shit around. The cargo commonly costs about 10m per shipment, and that's cheap, the ship only cost me about 2m. Even if the ship is insured, I loose 5x that much on the cargo alone, that's not even taking into account my 8m in modules.
As for healing from third parties, it /can/ happen, but I've never seen it done. And, almost all PVP is done in <0.5 space where if someone looks at you wrong, you can shoot them.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 02 2005,12:28
Ok, so there are losses for death... but are there benefits for the guy who kills you?
Posted by mbilderback on Aug. 02 2005,12:45
There are. I always get loot from NPCs, not sure about PKing, since I've never done it. But usually, PKing is done for other reasons typically.For instance, Pirating typically involves finding a weaker ship (transport, miner, smaller combat) and using a warp interdictor while beating it up. Once you get them to half or lower armor, you contact them and demand ransom. Usually you get it.
Corp wars are fought over territory, mining rights, and other such things. Lotsa combat.
I can't speak with authority on PK benefits.
Posted by Cakedaddy on Aug. 02 2005,20:06
I never minded blue healers. Our always worked better than others, and we could still score our kills. At one point, we would score more kills than normal, because our target felt they were safe, and stuck around too long. I didn't mind the NPKs either. They just became a target themselves. . . That is, after I learned how to PvP of course. Before that, I hated them. But, it gave me a goal that I payed to achieve for 5 years.
Posted by mbilderback on Aug. 03 2005,05:24
Oh, yeah, G, one other benefit. A player can put bounties on other players, so you can actually be a bounty hunter for a living and make good monies.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 03 2005,07:21
| (mbilderback @ Aug. 03 2005,05:24) | |
| Q U O T E | Oh, yeah, G, one other benefit. A player can put bounties on other players, so you can actually be a bounty hunter for a living and make good monies. |
They tried that in UO to madcap, zany, comic results.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 03 2005,07:53
| (Malcolm @ Aug. 03 2005,10:21) | |||||
| Q U O T E |
They tried that in UO to madcap, zany, comic results. | ||||
Exactly.
Murderes would wait til the bounty got high, then have a friend kill them and deliver their head. Friend and murderer split the bounty between them.
Posted by mbilderback on Aug. 03 2005,08:31
| (GORDON @ Aug. 03 2005,09:53) | |||||||||
| Q U O T E |
Exactly. Murderes would wait til the bounty got high, then have a friend kill them and deliver their head. Friend and murderer split the bounty between them. | ||||||||
Yup, heard of that in Eve as well, but 30+ million isn't worth killing yourself over and splitting, but it sure as hell is worth blowing up someone else's ship and getting the reward. Most straight PVPers that would get a high bounty have over 100mil in implants alone, and implants can't be removed.
UO didn't have anything that you would ALWAYS loose when you die. Eve has that in implants. Sure, things will happen like that, but I've seen a lot of criminals with high bounties continuing about their business.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 03 2005,09:15
| (mbilderback @ Aug. 03 2005,11:31) | |
| Q U O T E | UO didn't have anything that you would ALWAYS loose when you die. Eve has that in implants. Sure, things will happen like that, but I've seen a lot of criminals with high bounties continuing about their business. |
You always lost EVERYTHING when you died, no exceptions.
Eventually they put in stat loss.... 5 kills in 40 hours, you go red. Die while red, 5% stat loss across the board... that hurt.
And then they started inventing "blessed" items, which you wouldn't lose at death. This means people could now carry around their overpowered halberd of whoop-ass with no fear of losing it at death.... things went down hill from there.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 03 2005,09:31
Also, how long till the next dupe bug fucks shit up? What's the dev team like?
Posted by mbilderback on Aug. 03 2005,10:21
| (GORDON @ Aug. 03 2005,11:15) | |||||
| Q U O T E |
You always lost EVERYTHING when you died, no exceptions. Eventually they put in stat loss.... 5 kills in 40 hours, you go red. Die while red, 5% stat loss across the board... that hurt. And then they started inventing "blessed" items, which you wouldn't lose at death. This means people could now carry around their overpowered halberd of whoop-ass with no fear of losing it at death.... things went down hill from there. | ||||
Sorry, I should have narrowed my scope. If you wanted to get the bounty on your head, you could put everything away, get axed, and get everything back. In eve, even if you went out in the smallest ship (9k cost) to get blown up, you'd loose all your implants. You can't take those off long enough to let your friend kill you.
Posted by mbilderback on Aug. 03 2005,10:25
| (Malcolm @ Aug. 03 2005,11:31) | |
| Q U O T E | Also, how long till the next dupe bug fucks shit up? What's the dev team like? |
Good question. Well, CCP, the makers of the game run a forum on their website where the developers will post questions, listen to comments, and everything else. Then, they put any patches onto the test server (the only other server, but it's not for regular play, only testing) and there will be more discussion on the website. So far patches have definately seemed to follow popular opinion. There has been a huge patch lately mostly involving missles and how they behave. It was somewhat controversial, but the majority of the levelheaded people I've heard seem to think things are being handled well.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 03 2005,10:51
How will they respond to something that breaks in the in-game system, like the shit that happened on Siege Perilous a bit back? Roll it back or try to adjust?
Posted by mbilderback on Aug. 03 2005,11:33
They actually had a similar issue with the latest major patch. Some of the systems wouldn't load, as soon as you jumped in your screen would go black and never load. They tried for 2 days to fix it, rebooting the servers at least twice. Once they realized there was a major issue, they rolled back for a short time, fixed what needed to be fixed, and re-released. A week later and I haven't heard of anyone else getting stuck in systems. 
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 03 2005,11:53
How do the game mechanics work? How long does it take to "max out" my dude or at least get him competitive w\ the rest of the world? What's the learning curve? More importantly, what's the skill gain curve like? How much macroing is involved?
Posted by mbilderback on Aug. 03 2005,11:58
Uh, Malcom...it's free to try, why not give it a shot?Game mechanics? Depends on specifics, what part are you most interested in?
Max out? Dunno, never seen anyone maxed out even knowing some who have played for years.
Competitive? There's always someone better, always someone worse. I've been playing 3 months and can hold my own.
Learning Curve? Pretty sharp, helps to have peeps to talk to (player corp).
Skill Gain curve and macros? No macros, a single skill you set will train whether you're doing anything, sitting around, or offline. All you have to do is set what skill you want to train at any particular time.
Check it out and make your own assertations.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 03 2005,12:04
If it cuts into my drinking time, it gets to go thru a rigorous screening process.
Posted by mbilderback on Aug. 03 2005,12:22
:P Fine, any more questions? And who says it has to cut into your drinking time? Seems to me that it could coincide quite well.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 03 2005,12:49
I can't be a-clickin' on the mouse when I've got a beer in one hand & a shot in the other.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 03 2005,12:51
Heh. A lot of times I'd be drinking a beer while camping the bad guys for hours on end in UO... but I'd be forced to put down my beer when combat started.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 03 2005,13:08
| (GORDON @ Aug. 03 2005,12:51) | |
| Q U O T E | Heh. A lot of times I'd be drinking a beer while camping the bad guys for hours on end in UO... but I'd be forced to put down my beer when combat started. |
That's what I mean when I say "cutting into my drinking time."