Thunderdome 2015 » Printable Version of Topic » Enemy Territory: Quake Wars

Forum: Games
Topic: Enemy Territory: Quake Wars
started by: GORDON

Posted by GORDON on Nov. 10 2007,19:26

I got this recently instead of Team Fortress 2.

Earth Marines vs. Strogg in events that take place between Quakes 1 & 2.

It is a TF-style game, except with mission/goals thrown in to give it more than a "kill everything that moves" vibe. Stuff like "Deploy a radar," protect that vehicle, etc. Missions are vital to winning maps... it isn't just body count that determines the winning team.

Problem is.... the game seems too hectic to get stuff done. When I'm killed i usually never even see the guy who did it.... reminds me of Counterstrike in that respect. Hard to have total awareness of what is around me to stay alive when I have to hack an enemy turret by standing still facing it for 8 seconds at a time.

It is a multi player game but you can play AI until you get comfortable with it. The AI is painfully stupid when it comes to running missions, though.

Posted by GORDON on Nov. 13 2007,20:33

The game is much more coherent on an actual server with people.... the server I just played for a couple hours had people actually accomplishing missions and stuff.

Posted by GORDON on Nov. 16 2007,13:51

Some servers with a heavy guild presence sort of suck... death comes swiftly and unexpectedly when groups of people on the other team are actually organized.

I'd push peeps here to get it so you can join my [TKV] guild but I've been down that road before, and it's lonely.

I'd also like to see the engineer class given more leeway as to where they can mount turrets. As it is, they can't put a turret in enemy territory,a nd your team can't claim the territory until enough people are in it, or a spawn point is captured, or something. An engineer plopping down a turret could go a long way toward halping that happen. At least they made the fiction fit the rules.... when an engineer places a turret, it gets airdropped in. I guess it makes sense that we would not send a cargo plane into unsecure territory.

But still.

It is Marines vs. Strogg, and some maps are offense and some defense for each team. There's a few maps I've played 20 times, and I've never seen the Marines beat the Strogg defense on those maps. There may be balancing issues.

Posted by GORDON on Nov. 16 2007,14:20

Oh, I almost forgot!

I've seen in-game billboard advertising Intel processors. I don't know yet if stuff like that is dynamic and updatable.

It's not distracting. Maps are all on earth, and therefore it doesn't kill immersion to see billboards here and there. And they aren't there a lot.

Posted by Cakedaddy on Nov. 17 2007,10:41

You pick the wrong games to try to rally a [TKV] clan. The last one was AvP2 which maybe 63 other people in the world played. Pick a popular game, and renting a server and having it be busy would be viable. You really should give CS another chance. Get use to it. Lots of people play it and having a clan would be alot easier. Or Call of Duty 2. That's another good/popular game.

Posted by GORDON on Nov. 17 2007,10:56

Any given time there are at least 300 servers out there, no password, 10+ people on them. And jumpiong on a server is as easy as it was in TFC.... just filter the list how you like, and dbl-click.

So far I always have at least 50 servers running the options I want. Including Punkbusters.

And I dobn't really care about having a dedicated TKV team, I just throw that tag on my name to see if anyone recognizes it.

Posted by TheCatt on Nov. 17 2007,11:12

So... how old does a kid need to be before you have time to play games again?

Posted by GORDON on Nov. 17 2007,11:33

(TheCatt @ Nov. 17 2007,14:12)

QUOTE

So... how old does a kid need to be before you have time to play games again?

Mine has been sleeping 12 hours a night since he was 2 months old, so I usually have a couple hours after 9pm each evening for non-kid activities.

Posted by Cakedaddy on Nov. 17 2007,11:37

The younger the better. All you need is a playpen to keep them from getting into stuff they shouldn't. Putting the playpen at the other end of the house helps too so you don't hear them when they need something. It just interupts your gaming.

Posted by GORDON on Nov. 17 2007,11:39

Another plus about this game is that I can max the graphic settings with my low-midrange PC and still have perfect gameplay.

Posted by GORDON on Nov. 17 2007,11:46

(GORDON @ Nov. 17 2007,14:33)

QUOTE

(TheCatt @ Nov. 17 2007,14:12)

QUOTE

So... how old does a kid need to be before you have time to play games again?

Mine has been sleeping 12 hours a night since he was 2 months old, so I usually have a couple hours after 9pm each evening for non-kid activities.

Oh, plus he routinely spends the night at MD's house on Saturdays, so as of 6pm we get more grown-up time. Sometimes we go out with other couples, sometimes we stay in and eat junk food, sometimes I just veg in front of the PC all night.

Posted by GORDON on Nov. 22 2007,16:23

I've never seen a rocket-jump.

So far.

Posted by GORDON on Dec. 09 2007,19:52

Word on the street is that peeps who have played this game AND Team Fortress 2 pretty much all say this game is better.

Still haven't seen a rocket jump.

I'm thinking of joing RDH clan. Those guys are hilarious on voice chat.

Posted by Leisher on Dec. 10 2007,05:40

QUOTE

Word on the street is that peeps who have played this game AND Team Fortress 2 pretty much all say this game is better.

Wait a second. Are you telling me that peeps who actually play Quake Wars (all three of you) think it's a better game than Team Fortress 2, a game they're not playing? That sir, is a stunning revelation.

Next you'll probably tell me that people working on Hillary Clinton's campaign are going to vote for her too.

Well, just for the sake of argument, here are both games' ranking based on multiple media outlets:
< Team Fortress 2 >
< Quake Wars >

The word I've heard is that both games are fun, but designed for different audiences.

Truth be told, while I'll get TF2 (as it's in the Orange Box), Quake Wars actually does look more appealing to me.

Posted by GORDON on Dec. 10 2007,05:45

(Leisher @ Dec. 10 2007,08:40)

QUOTE

Word on the street is that peeps who have played this game AND Team Fortress 2 pretty much all say this game is better.

Well, that's pretty much exactly what I didn't say.

My quote and your quote couldn't be much more opposite.

The word in the community is that TF2 will win by default since it is packaged with hugely popular HL2. But ET:QW is a better, deeper game. TF2 is just more of the same while ET:QW combines aspects of TF, Counterstrike, and mission based games.

Plus I'm getting really good at driving the big fucking tank. Aint no big fucking tank in TF2.

And at any given time I can see 50 servers with 24/24 people playing, and I only need one. Punkbuster is integrated, and voluntary. SO it's more than "3."

What am I even discussing this with you for... you haven't played a game multi since 2001. In what year did you get married, again?

Posted by GORDON on Dec. 10 2007,05:49

And we're OFF and running on an icy Monday morning....

Posted by Leisher on Dec. 10 2007,07:25

QUOTE

Well, that's pretty much exactly what I didn't say.

My quote and your quote couldn't be much more opposite.

Actually, you did indeed say that.

You said "Word on the street is that peeps who have played this game AND Team Fortress 2 pretty much all say this game is better."

Considering you don't own TF2, you didn't hear it from peeps playing that game. However, you do own and play Quake Wars.

Thus, the street you're traveling and hearing words on is a Quake Wars street.

Also, I showed you Quake Wars' average rating (84%) and Team Fortress 2's average rating (93%). Just those ratings alone would indicate that maybe Quake Wars isn't "a deeper, better game".

But, to be fair, I looked at the average user ratings too: Quake Wars - 7.8
Team Fortress 2 - 9.1

So I think maybe, just maybe, the word you're hearing isn't exactly "the word on the street".

But hey, I'm just having fun with you. I thought UO was vastly superior to EQ despite EQ being more popular and getting better ratings. Thus, I completely understand how WQ could be a "better, deeper game" yet get ranked lower across the board.

QUOTE

And at any given time I can see 50 servers with 24/24 people playing, and I only need one. Punkbuster is integrated, and voluntary. SO it's more than "3."

Ok, so there's 1200 people who own it, not 3. Actually, based on your "300 servers with 10+ people on them" comment from earlier that puts the number at say 4500 or so. I apologize to the sea of humanity that plays QW.

QUOTE

What am I even discussing this with you for... you haven't played a game multi since 2001. In what year did you get married, again?

Actually, I have...a lot. With you folks, there's been EVE, a little UO, Serious Sam, Star Wars Battlefront, Total Annhilation, Urban Dead, Aliens versus Predator, Star Wars Galaxies, etc.

Without you folks, there's been online poker and a lot of co-op in various X-Box 360 games. I've played all three Halos through to completion, but haven't played the solo game yet.

I've also played Battlefield with people on the PC, but I don't if anyone else here played...?

Don't be all pouty just because we're not multing on a regular basis right now. Find a game we can all get into and I'm there. As Cake has often bitched about, we need a game that we're all going to enjoy and play awhile. I don't want to spend $50 on a game I'd never buy otherwise only to have us play three times.

Firefly is going the MMO route...

Posted by GORDON on Dec. 10 2007,07:57

Typical ET:QW game:

I typically play a rocket soldier, for now. Like TF there are different classes, medic, engineer, soldier, sniper.

Game starts, we've picked teams.

Immediately I, as a soldier, have a mission: use heavy demolitions to take out a barricade so we can drive our mobile command vehicle through and make a forward operating base. I can choose to accomplish my mission, or trust someone else to do it and just shoot at bad guys.

During this time engineers are calling in for drops of anti-personnel and anti-vehicle turrets, the snipers/covert ops guys are calling in radar towers, and medics are getting assignments to heal/revive troops who are close and fallen.

So I go ahead and blow the obstacle, and then our MCV (mobile command vehicle) gets airlifted in. All this time we're fighting off the bad guys, who get their own missions like "Keep that guy from taking out the obstacle."

Assume we get the MCV in place, then phase 2 of the mission starts: HAck the Slipgate, which is a teleporter and will allow us ti take the fight to their home world. Of course, the Slipgate is near their spawn/base, so the game just got a whole lot harder. Covert ops guys have to get to the slipgate and "hack" it so we can use it... this means standing there unkilled with a "hacking tool" for 20 seconds. Not easy. Need lots of teamwork.

We get a new MCV and our mission is to drive through the gate to establish a base on the other side. The bad guys' mission is to stop us. Again, we can do the mission or just shoot bad guys. Whatever.

The bad guys are setting up massive defenses in front of the gate, and as I soldier I get assigned missions to take them out one at a time. Of course, the bad guys don't want me to, so it isn't as easy as I make it sound. At this point in this particular mission, this is usually a long fight. I've seen timers run out right at this point when the defense was just too strong. Not easy. Lots of teamwork.

We get through the gate, and the MCV has to be driven to another forward staging area. This is also rough, but now, since we're in their territory, they have aircraft bombing the shit out of us at the same time. As a rocket soldier I am helpful here... my missiles lock on. Hopefully the pilot isn't quick with the countermeasures.

Now we're in their world with a forward base, and the mission becomes... blow up some power generator, or something. This means fighting our way through one of their buildings that they are vigorously defending. Confined spaces and concentrated enemy, but at least they can't call in orbital air strikes on us or place an anti-good guy turret...

Anyway, as a soldier I have the demolitions, so if I can get in I plant the charge and stand there for 20 seconds to arm it. Then it has to be defended from getting disarmed for 40 seconds while the timer counts down.

If we blow the reactor within 20 minutes, we win. If we don't blow it within 20 minutes, we lose.

This game has very little to do with body counts. It is team and objective based, and peeps like me don't even need to be on voice to be a functional and useful member of a team objective.

Several types of vehicles from ATV's to Abrams tanks are usually available to us, and an alien equivalent on the other side.

Team fortress.

I've played a shitload of Team Fortress Classic, probably more than anyone else reading this. I KNOW that game. And I'm up to speed on the changes made to Team Fortress 2, even if I haven't played it. Major changes are small tweaks to engineer and medical classes. Upgraded visuals and art style. The game remains basically the same, and that's fine.

The game is capture that flag/hold territory/Kill the President.

+++++++++++++

Try and argue with me now, guy who has never played either, and doesn't really know anything about ET:QW except what I have told him and is really just arguing for the sake of arguing because you can't possibly have an informed opinion about this game. I don't care about the ratings numbers, in this case. It is chess vs. checkers, and nobody is going to claim checkers is a deeper game.

Posted by GORDON on Dec. 10 2007,08:09

I haven't even touched on the things that can happen even when you are trying to accomplish a mission:

So there I'll be trying to be sneaky and plant a demo charge on their radar tower (and hoping they only deployed 1), when crap, the enemy captured a forward spawn point, and they are spawning right on top of me. SO now in order to accomplish my mission to blow up the radar, I also need to rally peeps to recapture that spawn point so I'm not getting bumrushed. And during this time there is a fucker sniping at me from a mile away. And another fucker calling in a laser strike from a ship in orbit on me. And an engineer who investigated who his turret's health is going down. And an enemy mech just walking around stomping people.

And yet missions get accomplished... or don't.

Depth.

Posted by GORDON on Dec. 10 2007,08:25

Oh, and to address your increasingly flippant remarks about player base, I have the server list filtered by sub-75ms ping, PunkBuster-only, and Ranked servers-only. If I unfiltered, I'd see a lot more people online. If I moved to the west coast, I'd see different sub-75ms ping servers.

Posted by GORDON on Dec. 10 2007,08:27

(Leisher @ Dec. 10 2007,10:25)

QUOTE

Also, I showed you Quake Wars' average rating (84%) and Team Fortress 2's average rating (93%). Just those ratings alone would indicate that maybe Quake Wars isn't "a deeper, better game".

But, to be fair, I looked at the average user ratings too: Quake Wars - 7.8
Team Fortress 2 - 9.1

And these numbers have nothing to do with depth. I bet Tetris got a high user rating when it came out, too, but I'm sure Neverwinter Nights had a lower general score. These numbers have very little to do with gameplay, and merely reflect what the game was trying to be.

I'd bet money that the people who ranked ET:QW what they did didn't put a lot of time into it, and judged on first impression. As you play more, your appreciation for the subtleties grows. Hell, look at my initial review of it, compared to now.

Posted by Leisher on Dec. 10 2007,11:07

Somebody's a bit defensive. Are you and Quake Wars dating now or something? I remember you and Cake used to mock me because I defended the C&C series. Now I realize you've got that love for the Quake series. You recently were debating with me about the series' place of importance in gaming history.

Ok, well I'll try not to be too harsh with your love...

That nice big long description sounds like other online games. No offense. Sure, they took a few levels of some other games and stuck them into one (any loading times between these objectives? Different maps?), but there's nothing new there. Hell, there have been persistent MMO FPS worlds that did all this stuff.

Again, I need to point out to you Mr. Defensive, that I'm MORE interested in playing QW than TF2. However, since you're arguing...

QUOTE

Try and argue with me now, guy who has never played either, and doesn't really know anything about ET:QW except what I have told him and is really just arguing for the sake of arguing because you can't possibly have an informed opinion about this game. I don't care about the ratings numbers, in this case. It is chess vs. checkers, and nobody is going to claim checkers is a deeper game.

I know everything about ET:QW. Everything. You know how I know everything? The same way you know everything about TF2:

QUOTE

I've played a shitload of Team Fortress Classic, probably more than anyone else reading this. I KNOW that game. And I'm up to speed on the changes made to Team Fortress 2, even if I haven't played it. Major changes are small tweaks to engineer and medical classes. Upgraded visuals and art style. The game remains basically the same, and that's fine.

I've played the Quake games and read the reviews of ET:QW therefore I know everything about it and can declare it nothing more than gay porn turned into a video game.

Right Gordo?

QUOTE

So I go ahead and blow the obstacle

And no you didn't play TFC more than anyone else. I played the shit out of TF2 even when you and Cake moved to CS. I was recruited by shit tons of clans due to my l33t Engineer skillz. I played the hell out of that game.

QUOTE

You should've said "depth" in your earlier large rant. Nothing in that smaller paragraph screams depth. It's the same gameplay from Tribes.

QUOTE

So what're you thinking? 6000? Just kidding. I'm sure it's smashing sales records.

And, to be fair, Cake's comments about the number of players/popularity was much harsh than mine.

QUOTE

(Leisher @ Dec. 10 2007,10:25)

QUOTE

What? Ok first, of all, you're attacking me at the one point where was actually defending QW:

QUOTE

I thought UO was vastly superior to EQ despite EQ being more popular and getting better ratings. Thus, I completely understand how WQ could be a "better, deeper game" yet get ranked lower across the board.

So let me respond with your very own: "Psycho".

Secondly, what the hell does that paragraph you wrote say? The numbers don't account for depth or have any reflection on gameplay or what the game was trying to be? I am completely baffled by that statement. So when a reviewer writes a review about a game, he's actually basing his opinion on the box cover? I mean, if he can't judge a game on its depth, gameplay(!), or what it's trying to be, then what is left?

You lost me on that one.

QUOTE

I'd bet money that the people who ranked ET:QW what they did didn't put a lot of time into it, and judged on first impression. As you play more, your appreciation for the subtleties grows. Hell, look at my initial review of it, compared to now.

I've always hated that logic. "Hey, this sucks! Let's keep doing it until we think its fun!" It's like all the idiots who tell me "Yeah, I thought Napoleon Dynamite was terrible, then I watched it again and it was funny." They lost me at the fact that they sat through it again. How can I trust their judgment when they actively sought out to torture themselves by sitting through something they hated the first time?

Back to the point, I do get what you're saying. A lot of folks will give something very little time to make an impression and will not go out of their way to really figure out what something has to offer and that might affect their ranking of ET:QW.

Of course, your example doesn't quite prove your point:
Neverwinter Nights -
Avg media rating: 89%
Avg user rating: 8.7 (IGN) / 9.0 (Gamespot)

To sum up:
"Bah"

You willing to do a money back guarantee?

Posted by GORDON on Dec. 10 2007,13:01

No money back guarantee, because (a) no one else of the now-FORMER TKV/dtman gamers will buy it, and (b) because you are too fickle. Even if you love a game you soon move on to something else. And that's fine. A stallion must run, and run free.

And you made more assumptions in the above post in addition to valid counterpoints, but I don't feel like breaking them out.

The last argument I will make to you on this subject is: I thought you would have a *little* respect for my opinion of video games. When was the last time I wrote so many words supporting, well, anything?

All I'm hearing is "TF2 is better than ET:QW." Yes, I realize we've said lots more than that, but that was the statement I that started this.... debate.... and you've never said anything about the possibility that I might be right.

Posted by Malcolm on Dec. 10 2007,13:21

Get a room.

Posted by GORDON on Dec. 10 2007,13:26

You wish because you want to set up web cams and watch, fag.

Posted by Leisher on Dec. 10 2007,13:45

QUOTE

I'm not fickle if I find something I really enjoy. That's why I'm able to finish games.

This time of year though, you're probably right. The Orange Box, Mass Effect, Assassin's Creed, The Witcher, etc. are all in my future.

QUOTE

The last argument I will make to you on this subject is: I thought you would have a *little* respect for my opinion of video games. When was the last time I wrote so many words supporting, well, anything?

I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that it may lead us into a much longer debate.

However, I will say that while I have always respected your game picking abilities as we have generally very similar tastes, I do usually know when something you like won't be up my alley (like the gay sex stuff). NOT saying ET:QW is such a game.

That being said, your first post in this chain sets the stage here. You bought this game because of a political stance against Steam or whatever, otherwise the title of this chain would be Team Fortress 2. My first thoughts to that were "Bush. Global Warming. Halliburton.". Then as I read the chain, I thought this game had potential and I might give it a shot.

Then YOU said this (and this is the real statement that started all this):

QUOTE

Word on the street is that peeps who have played this game AND Team Fortress 2 pretty much all say this game is better.

I pointed out that the gaming media and the gaming public seem to disagree with that statement. I also pointed out that people playing ET:QW might not have the most unbiased opinions towards other Multi FPS games. That's it.

Are you Al Gore? Am I not allowed to disagree? I did so with jokes so you'd know I was having some fun with you too, but you got a bit too defensive.

now we have this:

QUOTE

All I'm hearing is "TF2 is better than ET:QW." Yes, I realize we've said lots more than that, but that was the statement I that started this.... debate.... and you've never said anything about the possibility that I might be right.

No offense, but pure insanity.

Quote me on a single statement I made about how TF2 is better than ET:QW. All I did was call oyu on a statement you made and backed it up with ratings.

I then went on to bash said ratings by comparing them to the UO/EQ public opinion war.

MY quotes that allowed the possibility that you were right:

QUOTE

But hey, I'm just having fun with you. I thought UO was vastly superior to EQ despite EQ being more popular and getting better ratings. Thus, I completely understand how WQ could be a "better, deeper game" yet get ranked lower across the board.

That's not a sarcastic statement and it MAKES YOUR POINT FOR YOU.

QUOTE

Again, I need to point out to you Mr. Defensive, that I'm MORE interested in playing QW than TF2.

As my daughter likes to say: "Relax!"

Posted by GORDON on Dec. 10 2007,13:51

As my son likes to say when he's making out with your daughter.....

Posted by Leisher on Dec. 11 2007,09:56

Bah, a lot of girls practice kissing with their gay male friends...

Posted by Cakedaddy on Dec. 11 2007,12:14

Sweet!! This game comes with in game ads!! Glad it impacts the price I would pay.

Posted by GORDON on Dec. 11 2007,13:15

I mentioned that earlier, I guess you didn't read it.

BTW, don't bother with the "Collector's Edition." Doesn't come with anything cool, unless "trading cards" with the vehicles are cool.

Posted by Leisher on Dec. 11 2007,13:26

QUOTE

Sweet!! This game comes with in game ads!! Glad it impacts the price I would pay.

Did you get it or did you just read that?

I have no issue with in game ads as long as they "fit" the setting. It makes sense that I'd see ads for Coke or Pepsi as I run around a city executing evil doers.

However, I do like that other companies are offsetting their cost AND user cost with in game ads. Too bad it's not the case here.

QUOTE

BTW, don't bother with the "Collector's Edition."

Don't trust him Cake!

The regular edition is $49.99 on Amazon.
The "Collector's Edition" is currently $39.99.

Posted by GORDON on Dec. 11 2007,13:28

(Leisher @ Dec. 11 2007,16:26)

QUOTE

BTW, don't bother with the "Collector's Edition."

Don't trust him Cake!

The regular edition is $49.99 on Amazon.
The "Collector's Edition" is currently $39.99.

No shit? Goddammit, I paid $60 for it.

Posted by Leisher on Dec. 11 2007,13:41

No shit.

If my EBGames gift card transfered I'd really be hard pressed not to buy it right now as I've got another $15 gift vert for amazon to apply on top, so the game would be free.

Unfortunately...

(Not to mention I still haven't received my $50 from the McDonald's Monopoly game.)

Posted by GORDON on Dec. 11 2007,13:54

Well I don't even want you to buy it because you'd shit it all up with your shittiness.

Posted by Cakedaddy on Dec. 11 2007,14:55

I saw the ingame add on a dl site for the demo. I did read it. Just reiterating the shitty suckiness of fuckwad game companies shoving their cocks in my ass.

Can't wait to play it. . .

But no, I did not buy it. I did DL the demo. If Gordon can play with or host demo players, then all should be well. If not, he should just uninstall the full and load the demo and play with us that way.

Posted by Cakedaddy on Dec. 13 2007,19:55

I've spent a little more time with the demo. Not growing on me all that much. I do enjoy fighting vehicles and the mechs as the covert ops and his third eye bomb thing. I get the sprinter upgrade and become real fast. I then use buildings, etc as cover and get close enough to sprint up and slap it on. I then start the detonation while I run away and sometimes he blows before he gets me, others not. I consistantly get most accuarate with a score between 35% and 81%. Ok, 81% only happened once. Normally the high is around 60%. I'm a deadly sniper. The rocket launcher seems underpowered. I'd switch to that when they get us pinned down with vehicles and anti turrets. It doesn't seem to do much for as slow as it fires.

Posted by GORDON on Dec. 13 2007,20:01

v1.2 has a lot of additions that'd I'd be bummed to nt have.

I've heard that in the next patch the Icari get nerfed, and I agree with that. They are about impossible to hit and all they do is hover over you dropping their infinite supply of grenades.

Tonight I was encountering a shitload of people making..... impossibly accurate shots. I pretty much shut down the game in frustration. I think Punkbuster might be missing some things. Especially stuff like when I do a long-distance lockon with the rocket launcher on an enemy vehicle... and I wait... and I wait... and I wait some more.... and even when they aren't watching me, somehow they hit their countermeasures EXACTLY when I fire, no matter when I fire. Pretty much has to be a cheat.

Posted by Cakedaddy on Dec. 14 2007,10:50

Don't know what an Icari is. Might not be in the demo.

So, if they are cheating, does that mean you never play the game again? :-)

Posted by GORDON on Dec. 21 2007,05:51

The other night I managed to fly the hover jet through the slipgate.

I wonder if anyone was impressed.

Posted by GORDON on Dec. 22 2007,12:24

Noticed a lot more ads, today. They were becoming annoying and distracting, and I swear I saw one or two where there didn't used to be "billboards."

Not a good sign.