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Forum: Games Topic: LOL Team fights started by: Cakedaddy Posted by Cakedaddy on Apr. 28 2013,14:53
So, we suck at them. We were discussing tactics after Gordon quit because we couldn't give him any positive reinforcement after a Zed game. This is what I have to offer:In trying to become the initiator, I find that I have no idea what that means. As it is now, I wait for a squishy to expose themselves and I jump on them. Then, I'm instantly dead and the rest of my team soon follows me to the world of black and white. Question becomes, am I initiating incorrectly, or is my team responding incorrectly? I think it is both. I pointed out that as a team, we react to things. None of us know what to look for, what situation warrants an initiation, etc. They wait for someone to make a move, then react to it. There's no plan, no tactics. Simply a reaction. And more often than not, that reaction is extremely incorrect and costly. So, discuss 'The Team Fight'. Beyond team comp, etc. Because even with the perfect team comp, we will still fail at the team fight because we don't know how to execute it. If we all know what we are looking for, instead of reacting TO our initiator, we react WITH him. I'm watching the same team fight as everyone else. When I see a weakness, my team should as well. They should know that I'm about to jump, and they should jump with me. If you wait till I jump, then I'm dead before you guys even make first contact. Plus, who are you attacking? What's the plan? No one knows. . . . How does a team execute the perfect team fight? I don't know, so I can't offer much. Posted by Leisher on Apr. 28 2013,16:53
I came up with a plan last night, or rather, a different approach on how we should tackle team fights. First of all, team fights need to be on our terms. If a Blitzcrank grabs one of our guys and pulls him into their group of 5, tough shit. That guy's dead. Stay home, and worry about defending. Don't let one kill turn into 5 and some turrets lost. This also means that we engage as a team. Pros don't team fight by entering a fight one by one or from different directions. We all have seen movies where the hero fights a group of bad guys, and the #1 comment is usually: "There's 6 of them, why don't they all jump him at once? Why are they going one at a time?" We're the dumb asses who don't know to fight as a group. Everyone needs to really make an effort to change this habit. Instead of going into team fights thinking we need to get an ace, go into it thinking to hold that spot on the map, and force them to retreat. Basically, this is the concept that will be the hardest to wrap our heads around. We need to accept the FACT that pro games often end with less than 10 kills per team. This means that when they fight a victory is getting their opponents to B and/or use summoner spells. Now applying that to the "hold your ground" concept means that when we engage, we need to not chase until the fight has become a 5 man chase. NOT a situation where 2-3 are running for their lives, and you figure the rest of your team can handle who's left. A target will get called prior to the fight. THAT'S our primary. Once that person is down, the targets will change, but it's almost impossible to call them out during the fight, and then folks try to find them in the mess. Thus, as a team, I think we should switch to the closest and weakest targets. Remember, this is about holding our ground, and doing so on our terms. So if done right, we're probably under a turret or have caught them off guard. It should be no problem to drop 1-2 of them immediately. If that happens, the rest will run. Even if they get away, we now have control of the map until the others spawn. Now it's time to knock down turrets, grab dragon, baron, etc. Don't group up. Stranger pointed this one out, and he's right. We goof up a lot by grouping up, and getting caught in ults. This puts us at a disadvantage right out of the gate in fights. We need to stop this sort of thing by discussing prior to the game what ults we'll be seeing, and how we can avoid them. Protect your squishies! This starts with our squishies staying back. However, once team fighting ends, we need to ensure that they are able to continue to deal out damage without enemy interference. No offense to our tanks/support, but an ADC or APC can do a LOT more damage in far less time. If you aren't the ADC or APC, and they're dying in team fights before you, AND they weren't out of position, you should consider that a failure. I know I consider it a failure when I'm not getting kills (remember how frustrated I got with stupid fuck Graves?), so I think it's fair to say others should have similar feelings when they don't get their jobs done. Anyway, that's my opinion. Onto another strategy: If we have Singed in a game, I think Singed's focus should be on split pushing, while the other 4 travel in a pack and take advantage where they can when the enemy team responds to Singed. And while I'm talking: Talk and stop getting down. We've won a lot of games, and we've lost a lot. We'll lose more, and win more. It happens. We're working out new champs, a new teammate, new roles, new concepts, new strategies, etc. The point of this all is that it's a game. Sure, we want to compete, but we all need to relax and have some more fun then we're having. NOBODY wins them all. Posted by GORDON on Apr. 28 2013,18:21
I didn't ask if anything had anything positive to say about me, I asked if anyone had anything positive to say. The answer was a resounding "no." No one was having fun, so I quit for the night, because what is the point if no one is having fun.
Posted by Cakedaddy on May 01 2013,13:40
I think calling targets is mandatory as I think target focus is a huge problem of ours. Who all enters a team fight hoping that they are hitting the same target as everyone else, but not really knowing for sure? If a target isn't being called, then that's exactly what we are doing. The most hurt/closest champ to me may be someone completely different for you. If people still can't pick out a champ in a team fight, well, then they have some work to do.I wish people talked more. "Flipping Karthus" "Pinning Ziggs" "Stunning Veigar" etc. I'm constantly saying "I'm on Fizz, let's go". Granted, you may not hear it until you actually see it. But it's further confirmation that an action (initiation) is happening and you can count on your team backing you up. I may hear "I'm pinning Ziggs" after I see it, but by vocalizing a target, the team will (should) also react to it. Otherwise, they see Ziggs get pinned and just stay on their target because no one really knows what's happening. Protect the damage dealers. Doesn't matter if you are about to kill someone a single hit away from death. If our carries die, then we can't really do much with our 'victory'. Never leave your wing man. Carries, stay behind your team. Many times last night, I didn't like the flow of things and would be falling back only to find my carries holding ground or even moving forward. Carries, if you see something you want to take advantage of, say it. Point it out. Call a target. Otherwise, stay behind your tanks/support. I'm not falling back because I want to give them a turret, it's because it looks to me like they are getting some kind of advantage. So, either stay behind me, or point out what I'm missing. Carries, don't keep calling out for an initiation. "We need to initiate this before Vi does" is good on paper. . .but how does one do that? Just jump in and hope for the best?! If they aren't exposing themselves and opening an initiating opportunity, then we need to spread out, avoid their initiators, etc. It's frustrating to hear "We have to do something" when I don't see anything to do. Because then I just pretty much give up and do 'something' to appease those asking for action. Either call a target that IS exposing themselves, or we fall back and avoid their initiation. From where I'm standing: We always have a primary or two. Their carry and/or another squishy. So I wait on our front lines for one of them to expose themselves. During this time, my carries and support are behind me dancing around so they aren't a sitting target. They are NEVER in front of me. I'm still waiting for their squishy to get too close. Meanwhile, their front line is getting in our face trying to force something, or, just have a better initiation combo than we do. I want to fall back. I don't care if it's behind our turret and they are taking shots at it. If there is no opportunity for action, then there is no opportunity for action! If we try to force something, we are simply giving them the upper hand, and why would we want to do that? At this point, someone who knows more about what's happening than me needs to speak up. Simply saying in voice chat "We can't give up our turret. We have to do something". Well, that's when you see my jump into them, die, and then we still lose the turret and more. If you see what needs to be done, spell it out. Instead of saying "We need to do something." Say "We need to take out Vi and get this started". Fine, may not be ideal given team comps, etc, but we have a plan and we are all on the same page. I jump on Vi, my team is immediately on her, etc. This is WAY better than me doing 'something', and you guys MAYBE processing what I just did, figuring out an acceptable response (Or most likely wondering what the hell I'm doing), and perhaps turning it into something, or simply trying to minimize our losses after a failed initiation attempt. It is no longer acceptable for someone to suggest that someone do 'something'. If you don't have a plan, then don't say anything. I'm the initiator. If you don't like what I'm doing, then give me a specific instruction. Don't ask me to pull something out of my ass. Posted by GORDON on May 01 2013,15:29
My impression of us when we are discussing our troubles:Guy: i think our problem is *this* and we need to do *that.* The other four guys: i disagree and that is dumb. Then the next guy gives his opinion, and 30 goto 10. Run. Personally, there are times when singed flips a straggler and the rest of the team is all like OH NO THEIR ENTIRE TEAM IS AROUND THE CORNER. Well, if my team had been following my lead we would have bursted whatever straggler i flipped and killed him before the enemy team could respond. Last night one of the complaints were that we needed better instagators, but what i saw was that lots of times people were scared to jump in when i did instigate because it wasnt ideal conditions because 3 of them weren't waiting to respawn and 2 just disconnected. Now everyone tell me i am wrong. Posted by Leisher on May 02 2013,08:17
QUOTE I think calling targets is mandatory as I think target focus is a huge problem of ours. Who all enters a team fight hoping that they are hitting the same target as everyone else, but not really knowing for sure? If a target isn't being called, then that's exactly what we are doing. The most hurt/closest champ to me may be someone completely different for you. If people still can't pick out a champ in a team fight, well, then they have some work to do. Ok, then let's do this: 1. We need one voice during team fights. ONE. 2. When we get ready for the team fight, that person needs to be the one saying "flip this person", "grab this person", etc. 3. During the fight, they need to be the one calling out the targets. 4. Everyone else needs to stop what they're doing, and attack the called targets immediately. 5. If a target drops, and nobody is called, resume attacking the closest and weakest enemy to you. QUOTE I wish people talked more. Yes, but see above. QUOTE Protect the damage dealers. Doesn't matter if you are about to kill someone a single hit away from death. If our carries die, then we can't really do much with our 'victory'. Never leave your wing man. Preaching to the choir. Everyone here has some basic understanding about the game of football right? The offensive line (the tanks, and consider the support a FB), are there to protect the QB and the RB (the ADC and APC) so they can do their job. At the end of the game, the offensive line's uniforms should be dirty, and the QB and RB's uniforms should be clean. After a loss, a lineman shouldn't be bragging about their clean uniform, while their QB and/or RB are covered in dirt. However, I'm not at all implying it's all the O-line's fault if the ADC or ADP gets covered in muck. QUOTE Carries, stay behind your team. Many times last night, I didn't like the flow of things and would be falling back only to find my carries holding ground or even moving forward. Carries, if you see something you want to take advantage of, say it. Point it out. Call a target. Otherwise, stay behind your tanks/support. I'm not falling back because I want to give them a turret, it's because it looks to me like they are getting some kind of advantage. So, either stay behind me, or point out what I'm missing. During team fights, this falls on our one voice to make these calls. Although, folks should be saying if they are low on health. If the ADC or APC gets too frisky and dies, that's on them. Fall back and get ready for defense. These things are bound to happen. Tanks/supports can't save the carries every time, and some carries have kits that force them into the teeth of the enemy (like Katarina, Trynd, Akali, etc.). QUOTE Carries, don't keep calling out for an initiation. "We need to initiate this before Vi does" is good on paper. . .but how does one do that? Just jump in and hope for the best?! If they aren't exposing themselves and opening an initiating opportunity, then we need to spread out, avoid their initiators, etc. It's frustrating to hear "We have to do something" when I don't see anything to do. Because then I just pretty much give up and do 'something' to appease those asking for action. Either call a target that IS exposing themselves, or we fall back and avoid their initiation. As a carry, I don't recall calling for one, so please point it out if I do. As for initiating, again, our "caller" needs to call out who and when. QUOTE It is no longer acceptable for someone to suggest that someone do 'something'. If you don't have a plan, then don't say anything. I'm the initiator. If you don't like what I'm doing, then give me a specific instruction. Don't ask me to pull something out of my ass. We need a play caller. One voice. If Chaotic wants to be that guy, so be it. If not, I'll start calling targets in team fights. Posted by Leisher on May 02 2013,08:37
QUOTE Guy: i think our problem is *this* and we need to do *that.* The other four guys: i disagree and that is dumb. Then the next guy gives his opinion, and 30 goto 10. Run. That's dumb. The real problem is that there are 5 guys who all think they're not the problem. They all think they're playing the game correctly. They all think they can just skim all these posts because Cake doesn't know what he's talking about even though he's played the most or Chaotic doesn't know what he's talking about because he's new to the team or I'm dumb because I'm just a glory hound carry or Stranger's just getting info from sites and it doesn't apply to us or Gordo only knows Singed and yada yada yada. We all have things to add. We all have good points to make. However, we all need to be more aware that our points might not apply to the other people on our team. What we think should be done might not work for the team. This is why the military isn't a democracy. And we are, in terms of this game, a fighting unit. People need to shut up, and do what they're told. And that sounds much harsher than it'd meant, because we are playing a game and having fun, but three of us are actual vets who know better than to think you can have multiple voices shouting commands and think things are going to go well. QUOTE Personally, there are times when singed flips a straggler and the rest of the team is all like OH NO THEIR ENTIRE TEAM IS AROUND THE CORNER. Well, if my team had been following my lead we would have bursted whatever straggler i flipped and killed him before the enemy team could respond. Again, we're not talking, there is no plan, and nobody knows what you're doing. (and this isn't picking on you, follow me) We're talking about moments in game that occur in the blink of an eye. That means all of us would have to immediately notice what you're doing, interpret that action, analyze the situation, and then react. If nothing else was happening, that'd be easy. However, that's not realistic. So again, you shouldn't just be randomly grabbing someone without any communication going on. The play caller should have told the team, "Gordo, next one of them who gets within X, slow and flip them. Everyone else stun and do max damage to them. No ults though unless their team responds." In professional football, plays are called prior to every play so that everyone knows their assignment and what to do. This is true of ALL team sports. We are currently playing without plays. QUOTE Now everyone tell me i am wrong. That's a good attitude. "You either agree with me or you're wrong for not agreeing." Posted by GORDON on May 02 2013,09:07
(Leisher @ May 02 2013,11:37) QUOTE QUOTE Now everyone tell me i am wrong. That's a good attitude. "You either agree with me or you're wrong for not agreeing." That isn't what i am saying at all. I am saying that every time I share an opinion, someone tells me I am wrong. Posted by Cakedaddy on May 02 2013,11:13
If the team is skittish and falling back, you throwing an enemy at them for what you see as a potential quick burst kill, isn't going to suddenly give them confidence. We are in a fall back mode. When you flip, we still are. Of course we aren't going to go attack. Add to that the fact that some of your flips are done as harassment, and others are meant to initiate. You NEVER vocalize your intent, so we have to see who you flip, where you flip them to, who else is around (both teams), hesitate to read how your team is going to react, try to also observe enemy reactions, etc. All that, because there was no plan. Just an action that everyone has to react to. If you simply said "Flipping Ziggs", that would go a long way to increasing your team's confidence. Even though we are seeing it as we are hearing it, calling the target causes an immediate group response from your team. There is no processing, there is only trusting that your team mate isn't an idiot and we follow them into battle. You saying something will go a long way towards getting the response from your team that you are looking for. Hell, if we are falling back or skittish, I may have my screen moved down towards where I'm going, instead of where I've been and will not even see your flip. Or, I'm thinking "Why the hell is he moving towards the enemy?" I'm not in a mind set to react to your initiation. If you already know your team has the wrong mind set (fall back), then why be surprised when we don't react to your unannounced initiation?Also, just speak more. Way more. There are many fights where shits happening, then all of the sudden, in comes Singed with gas on, ult screaming, splooge arcing towards the enemy. In my head I'm thinking "Wasn't he just top? How'd he get here so fast? Oh, he must have teleported in. Sure wish he had announced it so that I could have stayed aggressive instead of now turning back around and trying to close in on the enemy. When that happens, I always try to throw out a "Oh, Singed is here." as a hint that you should have let us know you are coming. Leisher, I know I'm 'preaching to the choir'. But since it doesn't happen, it's gotta be said. Expanding on that, let us know who's getting you and how. What happened that allowed it? Give us something to watch for, or an enemy champ to concentrate on. Don't be vague with "You guys have to protect me". Help us figure out where our line is breaking down. I should have said "Non-initiators" instead of carries. And honestly, it's normally Stranger, and now Chaotic that is calling for nonspecific actions. They love the team fights and want them to happen and vocalize their desires, but with no clear plan for action. Who ever our 'voice' is, they have to know the enemy champs as well as ours to process the fight. Know what to expect from the enemy, and know what we are capable of. We know Vi dives and bounces. So, we spread out so she can't bounce all of us. I can ult her (jarvin), team bursts her. Etc. Have a plan. Look for x, y and z. When that occurs, execute plan A. If it doesn't, then plan B. We want their squishies, plan A. But we can't always get them, or they initiate first, plan B. Something like that. The voice should rely on the team to build the plans. The team should rely on the voice to call for and execute the plans. Lastly, if you don't like being told you are wrong, then stop being it. I'm doing work at a jail right now and I hear "They treat us like animals in here". "Then don't be in jail". On the other hand, even when you are right, we have to say you are wrong just to keep you in check. Posted by Cakedaddy on May 02 2013,11:14
Oh, and someone give Chaotic the message board URL again. It seems he's lost it.
Posted by GORDON on May 02 2013,11:24
I can start announcing teleports more often, that's easy. But half the time when I make a move at the squishy who is being aggressive, he takes 3 steps back and some bruiser takes 3 steps forward and I have to hit the bruiser instead. It all happens so fast I don't think it is possible for me to announce all that as it happens, especially since the whole thing relies on me being fast twitch to make the first move in the first place. I can't announce it because 3 things happen in literally a second and it's just all too fast.
Posted by Stranger on May 02 2013,11:28
(Cakedaddy @ May 02 2013,14:13) QUOTE gas on, ult screaming, splooge arcing LOL!!! Posted by GORDON on May 02 2013,11:33
Also if I see a fight happening and I announce, "Singed coming in," then it is already happening and don't bother trying to tell me no, you are going to pull back. Because you are right, it does seem to happen a lot that I start coming in and I am the only one there by the time the teleport is done because everyone else hauled ass.
Posted by GORDON on May 02 2013,11:34
(Stranger @ May 02 2013,14:28) QUOTE (Cakedaddy @ May 02 2013,14:13) QUOTE gas on, ult screaming, splooge arcing LOL!!! that was pretty good Posted by Leisher on May 02 2013,11:39
QUOTE But half the time when I make a move at the squishy who is being aggressive, he takes 3 steps back and some bruiser takes 3 steps forward and I have to hit the bruiser instead. If Gordo runs in and the enemy team is running away from him, we all should jump on whomever he flips. Tank or not. Meanwhile, he can keep running at the rest gassing all the way making it harder for the target to get help or run. -If they keep running, he can eventually turn around. -If they stop to help, he can gas them. -If they stop to fight him, we already killing their tank, and will get to the fight faster as a 5v4. The key is that we need to plan it out first, so we all know what's going. Posted by Cakedaddy on May 02 2013,11:46
And that's another thing. . . If you can't get the squishy, DON'T flip the bruiser. We don't want him. Back off, reset, and try again. But that sounds more like a team fight situation than your original "The team is falling back and I flip to isolate/burst someone, fail" scenario. If you see a target, call it. Even if it is AS you are flipping them because the situation popped up that quickly. When I'm going for someone like that I ALWAYS announce it. I'm constantly saying "I'm on Jax. Go, go, go.". Even though I know full well that by the time you hear it, I've already grabbed him with my anchor, or bandage. But by calling the target, I KNOW you guys are on your way to help finish them and I stay on them continuing to try to slow them, get in their way, etc. But in a team fight situation, one of the worst things you can do is flip the wrong target. It causes a reaction by our team and then we are all on cool down when the actual enemy targets enter the fight. Obviously, there's two break downs there. One, you flipped the wrong guy. Two, the team didn't process that and ignore them, or just poke them. DO NOT ENGAGE THE FUCKING TANK! But we still do because they got flipped. So really, we are all fucking up ONLY because you fucked up. . . Stop it. Point is, I know there are lots of things that just happen in an instant and there's no way to get word out before it happens, especially given voice lag. But by stating intentions, your team will react FAR better than if nothing is said at all. I can say this because I practice it. Especially on TT. I'm CONSTANTLY announcing my grabs (amumu or Mao kai) while I'm doing it. I KNOW you guys don't hear it until after I've already done it. But you guys ALWAYS respond, and more often than not, the results are in our favor. Posted by GORDON on May 02 2013,11:48
And let's try to get into the enemy's head, too, which is something I should have brought up a long time ago. There are some games where I think, "they are playing us perfectly." Their hard hitter is in the back line, possibly not even visible to us, waiting. Theu have a line of 3 brusiers, going side to side to keep us guessing. Then they have a guy that is darting in and out, maybe trowing harass pokes, but ALWAYS waiting to duck back and let the 3 bruisers move in if we get aggressive. The 3 bruisers are also waiting for this, maybe one is assigned to buff the squishy doing the harassing, but more likely the squishy has Flash and is waiting to use it.It is hard to counter a team that organized, even from under our own turret, especially if they have long range pokes and can "chunk" us all down to half health before they even bother moving into range of the turret. 1. We need to do that more.... "Zone" offense to where we can push a 5 man team under their turret and still get kills, as happens to us frequently. 2. We need to figure out how to defend against it, if possible, against a team we fed early. Posted by Cakedaddy on May 02 2013,11:50
Ya, chasing the enemy and a flip occurs is a no brainer. We are already out for blood and looking for something to attack. He gives us something, and it's game on. I'm talking about when we are falling back, or even just trying to figure out the situation. That's when comms are critical. If the enemy team is in retreat, they are already failing, we are doing well, and we roll over them.Don't be afraid to announce your teleport multiple times. You can even repeat it until it is acknowledged. If someone is calling targets, and we are fighting, etc. "Singed coming in" in a different voice is easily just back ground noise that is ignored. It will be the voice's job to acknowledge "Ok, Singed in coming, stay on target". Posted by GORDON on May 02 2013,11:52
(Cakedaddy @ May 02 2013,14:46) QUOTE But that sounds more like a team fight situation than your original "The team is falling back and I flip to isolate/burst someone, fail" scenario. If you see a target, call it. Even if it is AS you are flipping them because the situation popped up that quickly. When I'm going for someone like that I ALWAYS announce it. I'm constantly saying "I'm on Jax. Go, go, go.". Even though I know full well that by the time you hear it, I've already grabbed him with my anchor, or bandage. But by calling the target, I KNOW you guys are on your way to help finish them and I stay on them continuing to try to slow them, get in their way, etc. But in a team fight situation, one of the worst things you can do is flip the wrong target. It causes a reaction by our team and then we are all on cool down when the actual enemy targets enter the fight. Obviously, there's two break downs there. One, you flipped the wrong guy. Two, the team didn't process that and ignore them, or just poke them. DO NOT ENGAGE THE FUCKING TANK! But we still do because they got flipped. So really, we are all fucking up ONLY because you fucked up. . . Stop it. I hear what you are saying, but I disagree. Unless the guy is a SOOPER tank, then we need to kill him. I think it woks more often than not, and I don't think it is a winning strategy (for us) to let 5 of them regroup alive just because I could only reach the tank. If we engage and kill the tank but then 4 of them turn around on us, then we need to deal with that situation, then. We SHOULDN'T have lost anyone in a 5vTank. Posted by Stranger on May 02 2013,11:58
(Cakedaddy @ May 02 2013,14:13) QUOTE it's normally Stranger, and now Chaotic that is calling for nonspecific actions. They love the team fights and want them to happen and vocalize their desires, but with no clear plan for action. its not that i love team fights and desire it. i'm looking at it as strength in numbers. i don't know how many times i see someone way the hell on the other side of the map all by themselves trying to push towards a turret without a ward to protect their backside and what happens? yep, your dead. travel in packs. or if we are going to send someone off to split push then the other 4 of us should be grouped up to create a diversion and make the other team decide who they wanna confront. Posted by Cakedaddy on May 02 2013,12:01
Ok, this is where I say YOU are wrong! By flipping the tank, who rarely dies, because they are the tank, we burn all our our abilities on them. Our damage dealers are distracted and focusing the tank. Meanwhile, their CC start flowing, their damage dealers are entering the fight, uncontested, etc. And THEY are attack our damage dealers. Fight ends with MAYBE their tank dead, but three of our squishiest champs dead. We just did exactly what they wanted us to do. Every team in the game wants the enemy to engage their tank.If we had the discipline to ignore the flipped tank and simply continue waiting for their squishies to become available, this would be a non-issue. But we don't. So, I'm asking that you stop doing it! However, if everyone PROMISES not to fully engage the tank, then I'll drop it and happily accept the flipped tank. Ranged basic attacks only on the flipped tank is the only acceptable response from our team. If we try to burst/kill him, we just did EXACTLY what the enemy wants us to. You never primary the tank. Never. Ever. In a team fight situation, if their tank in the primary target, we are doing it wrong and will fail. There is no situation where you primary their tank during a team fight. Posted by GORDON on May 02 2013,12:03
(Stranger @ May 02 2013,14:58) QUOTE or if we are going to send someone off to split push then the other 4 of us should be grouped up to create a diversion and make the other team decide who they wanna confront. I agree with this. If we are all mid and nothing is happening and I say something like, "covering top," then either call me back if you want to, say, push mid, or take that as a sign that if I am covering/pushing top, then push mid or bottom and make them choose a kill on me, or a turret. I guess there is a difference though between clearing the gob of red hitting our turret and pushing out solo to their turret. Different situation, different strategy. But yeah, if I am pushing their second turret and hitting it, then hit them somewhere else hard. Make them choose. I will try to call out when this happens as I get frequently surprised when one of us is doing the same thing and I didn't notice it until the turret drops. Posted by GORDON on May 02 2013,12:06
(Cakedaddy @ May 02 2013,15:01) QUOTE There is no situation where you primary their tank during a team fight. Except when there is. The tanks are never the primary, but sometimes when they are in retreat they are the only ones we can catch. I don't think anyone is going to run past the tank trying to catch the flipping Fizz or bounding Nidalee who will never be caught. If they happen to all turn around at once when the tank is engaged, then we need to deal with it, but we can't just ignore the guy if he is the only one we can catch. Posted by Cakedaddy on May 02 2013,12:13
I'm actually referring to the times when they are pushing our turrets, or on dragon/baron, etc. Yes, I agree that we can't just roll over and give them these things. But at the same time, 'something' isn't a plan. "We can't just give them our turrets. We have to do something to try to stop them". Common statement. Unacceptable from now on! Propose a solution that we can participate in. "Singed, flip anyone you can reach and that's our target". That's a horrible plan. . . but at least it puts us all on the same page and we can do it as a team.
Posted by GORDON on May 02 2013,12:19
Yeah, "do something" is distracting, because at least for me, I am already trying to do something. I DON'T purposely primary a tank during a team fight. Y'all have probably seen me make several failed attempts to snag a squishy as they were aggressive near our turret. I typically do not snag a tank, instead, in that situation. I pull back as everyone groans, "oh no, singed..." into their microphones thinking I am going to chase a squishy into a pack of 5 of them. Sometimes I snag a tank accidentally, granted, but it is hard to target them when they overlap and stack up. And there is no way to verbalize that when it happens, in time. "Flipping Lux/no wait grabbed Nasus by accident/don't attack/move after Darius who is moving in" just isn't possible when it happens in a second. No way the enemy team verbalizes it either. We just have to know. Posted by Stranger on May 02 2013,13:38
while i agree that we should have a better plan of action when it comes to intiating and who we are targeting, some of it just needs to be known. When i play Zyra i shouldn't have to say every time i'm throwing out a vine to entangle someone. Its on a pretty low cooldown and i can spam it all day, it just so happens that its a pretty good initiate. If i get a squishy with it now you guys have gotta follow up, if i happen to land it on their tank, oh well let it go, i'll have another vine ready in a few seconds. And if my ult is up i usually follow up the snare with the big AOE knockup. When i'm Leona her whole game is about initiating. If i have my ult up ill call it out and be ready for the explosion followed up by me diving in. Sona, not so much of an initiator but her ult can be for sure. Lulu, no initiating there, she needs to be in the back line. So i think when we enter a game we need to know who our initiators are first and foremost. Singed can obviously be one, Leona is another, Nocturne and Nautilus are good for it. and of course Amummu but we never get to see him. Are there any others that im missing? Then when we decide who has what roll in the fights we should better be able to execute them. Posted by GORDON on May 02 2013,13:52
You are right that we should know Zyra better. I have no knowledge of Zyra at all since I don't lane with her and haven't seen her in game, much. :-) I know you entangle peeps with vines. I don't know the range or the cooldowns and I can't really visualize your ult and I know sometimes she leaves plant turrets but I don't know the circumstances. I just haven't seen her enough.So she has a quick cooldown long range tangle? Posted by Stranger on May 02 2013,14:01
her E is a medium range entangle. Its a skill shot that can snare up to two people at a time. And yes it has a pretty quick cooldown. Usually my combo that im trying to pull off when i have my ult up is to snare someone (or two), drop a couple of plants on them at the same time so they are getting hit while snared. I then follow that up with my ult which which is an AOE knockup, it will knockup everyone in the big circle and it also puts any plants that i have out into a frenzy giving them extra attack speed and AD. So ideally when i can get off my whole combo at least one or two people are locked up for a good 3 seconds and whatever other enemies that are in my circle get knocked up. Posted by Cakedaddy on May 02 2013,18:33
Yes, you can throw your vine and hope we notice, read your intentions and react properly. Or, you can call out your intentions and we can follow up with more confidence. We are in voice. It takes almost no effort to call out your intended snare. We then know what we are looking for and can react more intelligently. If you say "Snaring lux" and you snare Nasus, we know it was a failed snare. If you say nothing and snare Nasus, we are left to wonder "Did he want to attack him? Am I letting my team down if I don't engage? I don't want to not be in the fight and be the reason we lose." Just say it. It doesn't hurt. It only helps. Hate us for not just 'knowing' what you meant while you say it. That's ok. I can deal with that. I'd rather you hate me for not reading your mind and forcing you to speak, but winning, than you hating me for not reading your mind and losing.
Posted by Cakedaddy on May 02 2013,18:39
Oh, and another schedule change means I'm available again tonight.
Posted by GORDON on May 02 2013,18:51
I am on but will not be on late.I will require a portion of.... no, I will require ALL my cunning to get through tomorrow. So I need a good night's sleep. Posted by Chaotic Obsidian on May 02 2013,22:00
Okay, so we actually had some decent team fights today, but we do still need to work out a lot of the kinks in our plans:1): We do need to focus more on CS in a lane and not going balls to the wall on everything. 30 CS > 1 Kill, so if we can all get advantages in CS, then we just have to wait for the jungler to come by for kill opportunities. 2): A "Successful" gank doesn't always have to end in a kill. If you burn a flash, an ignite, an exhaust, a teleport, an ult, it's a successful gank. It's all about timing as a jungler, and you have to keep some lane pressure on globally to be effective. Jungling is incredibly difficult to do incredibly well. That Jarvan in our first game today was a very good example. He was everywhere, and he was everywhere early. Every lane had an opportunity for a kill within 10 minutes. 3): If you guys would like for me to, I will continue to call shots and try to make the plays, but we all have to listen to the call. If we want to elect a shot caller and said caller makes a call, we ALL have to follow it. We have to pay attention to the call and we all have to try to execute it. If you have to B, let them know. If you're low on mana, let them know. When a call is made and fails, it's usually because we have 4 in a brush, and someone goes off split pushing without saying anything. I will make my shots more specific, but if we only have 4 that will listen, we can't do anything anyway. No one can make a 100% accurate call in every single instance, but with a shot caller, we assume that they will be right a larger majority than anyone else when decisions are made. 4): We need to practice when to peel off objectives and when to take objectives. When we are baroning and a lone ranger walks in, the ADC and jungler stick on Baron, and everyone else peels. It's actually taught that way at a professional level. When we go in for a turret, we should be content with just chunking it little by little. We generally go all in, pull in somebody, they flash out, the other team throws down their CC, and the turret kills us all. If we send in our long range harassers with each wave, it'll be gone within 2 minutes. We don't need to all in a tower. Just pushing minions to a tower is good enough most times. They will lose experience and gold, and as a result, we essentially gain it. I'm sure I'll get someone that doesn't like these points, and that's great since these are our discussion forums. It's just something to read and try to improve upon. If we hope to get better, we have to try to cut down on sloppy team fights. |