Topic: LoL Armor
started by: Cakedaddy
Posted by Cakedaddy on Nov. 12 2012,10:05
Our understanding of armor is incorrect. 25 armor does not block 25 points of incoming damage. Armor creates 'effective health'.Effective health is how much damage you have to take before you die. Each 1 point of armor you have is a 1% increase in the amount of damage you take before dying. So, if you have 1000 max health and 60 points of armor, it will take 1600 points of damage to kill you.
Another way to look at it is in damage reduction. If you have 60 points of armor, then incoming damage is reduced to 62.5% percent, or, a 37.5% reduction in damage.
Having high armor increases the effectiveness of healing too. If you heal for 100 points, the enemy has to do 160 points of damage to undo that heal.
So, it's not a point for point damage reduction.
So, when you are lowering their armor through ArPen, you are reducing the amount your damage is reduced! If your enemy has 25 armor, your 100 point shot is only doing 80 points of damage. So, you can take 20 points in AD. This makes your 120 point shot do 96 points of damage. Or, you can take 20 points of ArPen and now your 100 point shot does 95.2.
At this point, we have to decide is ArPen cheaper than AD? ArPen works on buildings too, because they have armor. As well as minions/jungle.
With ArPen, you can reduce their armor below zero thus increasing the amount of damage you do. So, if you reduce their armor to -25%, you are doing an additional 20% in damage. So, your 100 point AD shot is doing 120 points of damage. Or, your are reducing their effective health from 1000 to 750.
I still don't know which is better. ArPen or AD. But, at least now I understand the math and can make an educated decision.
And, it could be a good strategy for us all to buy some armor, take heal and become a more tanky team.
Posted by Cakedaddy on Nov. 12 2012,10:11
Oh, and their's armor pen, and armor reduction. The black cleaver reduces armor. So, while that affect is active, the whole team benefits from it. My armor Pen does not affect Gordon's damage to the target. But my armor reduction WOULD affect Gordon's damage to the target.
Posted by Leisher on Nov. 12 2012,10:21
We're learning this just in time for Riot to address the bruiser meta... QUOTE
"Minor spoiler: Blade of the Ruined King and Wicked Hatchet are actually Season 3 items.
During development, we actually had a very powerful version of Madred's called Tankbusta that completely destroyed the Bruiser meta (yes, it can be done!). However, we found that there was a lot of crossover between Takbusta and the S3 items, so we scrapped Tankbusta and brought over the S3 items instead.
BotRK is definitely weaker than Tankbusta, but we'll separate them out again and give TT its own replacement if necessary."
During development, we actually had a very powerful version of Madred's called Tankbusta that completely destroyed the Bruiser meta (yes, it can be done!). However, we found that there was a lot of crossover between Takbusta and the S3 items, so we scrapped Tankbusta and brought over the S3 items instead.
BotRK is definitely weaker than Tankbusta, but we'll separate them out again and give TT its own replacement if necessary."
So, would it be a good strategy to have our AD and AP Carries build straight glass cannons and stay to the back of fight, while the other three build a mix of armor and damage?
Posted by Stranger on Nov. 12 2012,10:24
< http://www.surrenderat20.net/ >Don't get to used to all of that though, The end of season two patch is tonight evidently. And if you read some of what the RED's have been posting, many items are changing and the way the ArPen and AD are being implemented is also being changed.
There are a few good articles from the last week in here about changes in items, jungle changes and other ways they are changing the game. You will have to read some of the older posts to read them all. But regardless, be ready for lots of new developments really soon.
I just noticed that the patch is for Europe tonight not NA. But expect it very soon.
Posted by Stranger on Nov. 12 2012,10:35
ok, i stand corrected. Flat ArPen and %ArPen are being changed. here is what i found:1. Flat Armor Penetration and % Armor Penetration values are generally being lowered, but now Flat Penetration is calculated AFTER % Penetration
For example: Let’s say I have 50% Armor Penetration and 20 Flat Armor Penetration versus a target with 120 Armor.
Currently, on Live, I would ignore 20 of his armor via Flat Penetration (100) and then 50% of the remainder, leaving him with 50 Armor.
After this change, I would ignore 50% of his armor (60) and then 20 of the remainder, leaving him with 40 armor.
In this manner, we can make sure that penetration values can be cost-effective for both late game and early game because now you have an option to synergize the two statistics together if you need to pierce large amounts of armor.
Posted by Cakedaddy on Nov. 12 2012,11:00
Well, the items may be changing, but at least now I understand what armor/armor pen/etc really do.
Posted by GORDON on Nov. 12 2012,11:50
(Cakedaddy @ Nov. 12 2012,13:05)
QUOTE
And, it could be a good strategy for us all to buy some armor, take heal and become a more tanky team.
"Hey everybody take defensive runes and masteries."
"Fuck you GORDON, you are stupid and that is a stupid thing because attack damage and also shut up."
Posted by Stranger on Nov. 12 2012,12:22
Well it looks like armor is gonna be less usefull than it was before. they are making items that are gonna be taking out the tanky bruisers, and the fact that they are changing flat ArPen and %ArPen make armor that much more useless. Just because you figured out how its works doesn't mean that it better than it was before. And I'm someone who always builds armor in his masteries and through items. I think its kinda sad that its going that way.
Posted by Leisher on Nov. 12 2012,12:24
(GORDON @ Nov. 12 2012,14:50)
QUOTE
(Cakedaddy @ Nov. 12 2012,13:05)
QUOTE
And, it could be a good strategy for us all to buy some armor, take heal and become a more tanky team.
"Hey everybody take defensive runes and masteries."
"Fuck you GORDON, you are stupid and that is a stupid thing because attack damage and also shut up."
You're going to break a hip trying to pat yourself on the back.
However, two things:
1. I never disagreed with you when you said it.
2. I stand by my assertion that it doesn't work for all members of a team.
Tanks/Bruisers = Yes
AD/AP Carry = Not so much. Give up too much offensive power, and it's like buying armor for the enemy...
And as Stranger points out, this is all moot now anyway since Riot is changing everything for S3.
Posted by GORDON on Nov. 12 2012,12:39
Just pointing out that I was pointing that shit out... what... a year ago? a lot, and usually when I have a really good game with one of my characters it is because I have my defensive masteries in spite of the "the carry should CARRY" opinion.
Posted by Stranger on Nov. 12 2012,12:48
(GORDON @ Nov. 12 2012,15:39)
QUOTE
Just pointing out that I was pointing that shit out... what... a year ago? a lot, and usually when I have a really good game with one of my characters it is because I have my defensive masteries in spite of the "the carry should CARRY" opinion.
But you don't play AP or AD carry.. obviously Singed and Nunu greatly benefit from armor.
Posted by GORDON on Nov. 12 2012,12:53
It goes hand in hand with when I was pioneering the phrase, "We are feeding too much" and I didn't mean me.The response was, "Well what do you suggest we do about that, GORDON?"
And then I would say, "Put more defense in your runes and masteries. You may get fewer lasts hits but you will feed less, and feeding is what always kills us."
And then the reply is, "Yeah well that is stupid and shut up and you are dumb."
Posted by Leisher on Nov. 12 2012,13:03
QUOTE
Just pointing out that I was pointing that shit out... what... a year ago?
I know what you're doing.
QUOTE
usually when I have a really good game with one of my characters it is because I have my defensive masteries in spite of the "the carry should CARRY" opinion.
Not sure what you mean here? Are you saying when you played the AD Carry? In that case I'd disagree.
I think it's about style.
When I used the standard mastery set for AD Carries, I felt sluggish, and didn't feel it was worth it late game. However, when I use my AS runes, I feel more comfortable.
Plus, the meta for a while was "Critplank" for you Gangplank players. Guys were setting their runes up to give GP massive damage bonuses with their critical hits. So they were dominating with him, but without defensive runes.
However, if you're talking about Singed...different story, and I totally agree.
The last Singed we played against the other night had a perfect build. He had just enough tankiness to require multiple people to take him down, but still did enough damage to make them go heal after fighting him.
Posted by Cakedaddy on Nov. 12 2012,18:46
What they said. . . .Carry should still not have defensive stuff.
Tank/bruiser should.
Last hits are the most important thing to the carry. The most. The one thing in the game they should be doing is scoring last hits. Something that would cause them to have fewer last hits should be avoided.
I have changed my Ashe runes to include more ad and less attack speed. My old rune page was 100% attack speed runes. Gave me a %38 increase. Which was awesome. My current gives 13% attack speed and 15 ad. I also start with doran's blade. This gives me a wee bit more sustain with the life steal, but I almost never miss a last hit now. Assuming my 'support' isn't trying to take last hits as well. This rune set gives me the highest dps through level 5. With all the last hits I'm taking, I have more money to spend on items. Items that give more ArPen! Early game, AD is more important than ArPen to ensure more last hits.
But even with all the changes coming, etc, I'm glad I understand armor now. After almost 2 years of playing, I'm just now figuring this out. Embarrassing!
Posted by GORDON on Nov. 12 2012,18:57
I still say we would do better with half the kills and half the deaths.
Posted by Cakedaddy on Nov. 13 2012,11:20
I say that half of our deaths are more due to stupid decisions than a few points of armor/resist. I mean, have you ever sat and watched Stranger play?! :-)
Posted by GORDON on Nov. 13 2012,11:42
Well, that's your opinion. If peeps aren't going to play better, then 20 points of resist and armor will keep them alive to survive their mistakes.
Posted by Cakedaddy on Nov. 13 2012,12:46
And so will 10000. Where do we draw the line? At 20? Cause YOU said so?!? I guess people are going to believe what they want to believe. :-)Instead of putting on a helmet cause we are retarded, lets stopping being retarded!
Posted by Leisher on Nov. 13 2012,13:01
I agree with Cake. 20 points of armor doesn't do me much good when I'm out of position or nobody is there supporting me.
As Trynd I can hit people for over 1000 points of damage pretty easily, but I'm sure that 20 points will save them!
QUOTE
Instead of putting on a helmet cause we are retarded, lets stopping being retarded!
This
Posted by Cakedaddy on Nov. 13 2012,13:13
Keep in mind that 20 points in armor isn't 20 points off the 1000 points of damage you are doing. It's actually 167.Over all, I'm not arguing that 'no one' should take armor runes/masteries. I'm arguing that 'everyone' should not take it. Many champs would use it. But our carries should not have it. Singed is an ideal candidate for it. Ez is not.
Posted by GORDON on Nov. 13 2012,13:40
We give up our kills early game. 20 points of armor early game is huge.You guys are purposely being obtuse, aren't you.
Posted by Cakedaddy on Nov. 13 2012,14:02
No, 20 points of armor early game is NOT huge. In fact, it's very small. When AD is about 60, 20 points of armor means those hits are doing 50 points of damage instead of 60. Remember it's a 'percent' of protection, not a 'points' of protection. A small percent of a small amount of damage is a small amount.
Posted by GORDON on Nov. 13 2012,14:04
Getting hit for 50 instead of 60 is nearly a 20% difference. 3 of them hitting you for 20% less means you just got saved from giving up first blood.
Posted by Cakedaddy on Nov. 13 2012,14:26
Three of them hitting you at 80% means you did. The only way you survive a gank is by not being out of position. They will have cc and dps coming at you.
Posted by GORDON on Nov. 13 2012,15:12
No they wont.
Posted by Cakedaddy on Nov. 13 2012,15:21
I will NEVER support putting armor on our carries. That is dumb. And gay.
Posted by GORDON on Nov. 13 2012,15:23
That's racist.