Topic: Planned Parenthood is organ farming
started by: GORDON
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 15 2015,09:14
I fall about 50.00001% on the side of "abortion is probably morally wrong" argument, but I've always been able to clearly see the pro-abortion argument and pretty much kept my mouth shut about it and privately thought, "Why can't you just be more careful, or not a slut?"But hearing about this, it kinda gives Planned Parenthood a fucking horror show vibe.
< http://www.nationalreview.com/corner....-tissue >
Head of the foundation talking about how to forceps the fetus to not damage the salable parts. Christ.
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 15 2015,09:31
That's a hell of a biased article.QUOTE
And it is pitiful to use the phrase “appropriate consent” to describe the deliberate killing of an innocent human being...
Stop applying < your morality > to the rest of the world. The phrase "begging the question" springs to mind.
< Rebuttal >.
QUOTE
There is no financial benefit for tissue donation for either the patient or Planned Parenthood. In some instances, actual costs, such as the cost to transport tissue to leading research centers, are reimbursed, which is standard across the medical field.
I want to see some financial analysis. If they're making cash on this, they'd have no trouble keeping the centers open that seem to be getting closed due to psychotic, thinly-veiled state legislation intended to do an end run around the fourth amendment.
QUOTE
The right of the people to be secure in their persons...
I get the same vibe from that website as I do from the ones that think Bubba had Vince Foster killed and 9/11 was an inside job.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 15 2015,09:42
(Malcolm @ Jul. 15 2015,12:31)
QUOTE
That's a hell of a biased article.
I know, right? And I keep waiting for an unbiased article about Hitler. Yeah monster yaddah yaddah, but hey, the man had some good ideas, too.
BAM godwinned.
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 15 2015,09:48
Calling it murder makes a lot of assumptions that break down to matters of faith. Quantum theory is also a matter of faith, but it's got a lot more evidence in its favour, and it's not trying to impose a metaphysical dictatorship along the way.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 15 2015,10:11
Are you arguing about the morality of abortion, or are you talking about the fact the PP chick was caught on camera talking about harvesting and selling fetal tissue? Because this wasn't about the morality of abortion.
Posted by Vince on Jul. 15 2015,10:30
Planned Parenthood was established to prevent the proliferation of blacks and other "undesirables". Pretty much the confederate flag x 1000000000. The flag never extinguished a black life.Selling dead baby parts is ghoulish and evil. Period.
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 15 2015,10:40
(Vince @ Jul. 15 2015,12:30)
QUOTE
Planned Parenthood was established to prevent the proliferation of blacks and other "undesirables". Pretty much the confederate flag x 1000000000. The flag never extinguished a black life.
And no.
QUOTE
The origins of Planned Parenthood date to October 16, 1916 when Margaret Sanger, her sister Ethel Byrne, and Fania Mindell opened the first birth control clinic in the U.S. in the Brownsville section of Brooklyn, New York.
...
The "Brownsville trials" brought national attention and support to their cause, and although Sanger and her co-defendants were convicted, their convictions were eventually overturned. Their campaign led to major changes in the laws governing birth control and sex education in the United States.
...
The "Brownsville trials" brought national attention and support to their cause, and although Sanger and her co-defendants were convicted, their convictions were eventually overturned. Their campaign led to major changes in the laws governing birth control and sex education in the United States.
It was 3 women looking who decided to delve into a branch of medicine that was shuttered away in a closet, if even acknowledged at all, back in the day. Because they took a look into the future and figured out < back alley abortions > were not the way to go.
Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 15 2015,10:50
Waste not, want not.I watched the videos. I think the video commentary and news stories are heavily mischaracterizing what was said. She didn't look like someone eager to make money on selling fetuses, she looked like someone trying to match up the cases where patients said they wanted to donate the fetus for study with institutions in need of tissue. I'd rather they didn't have a handling charge on these but I can see the necessity, especially with how poorly funded they are and how frequently their funding is attacked by the twits that are unable to comprehend that Planed Parenthood is the leading preventive of abortions due to their contraceptive work.
And if you do the math based on what was said in the video we're talking between $240 and $800 per day per clinic in handling fees when they are at their busiest, so this is clearly not a way for Planned Parenthood to rake in the cash.
Honestly the only person in that video who's attitude I found repulsive was whoever was behind the camera, what with his "dime a dozen" remark and gleeful comments at the end about thank god for planned parenthood killing babies. Everyone else in the video was more properly somber about the unpleasant topic at hand.
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 15 2015,10:57
(GORDON @ Jul. 15 2015,12:11)
QUOTE
Are you arguing about the morality of abortion, or are you talking about the fact the PP chick was caught on camera talking about harvesting and selling fetal tissue? Because this wasn't about the morality of abortion.
The article brings up the morality and sledgehammers you with it at the end. Up until then, I was reading with cautioned skepticism. The author's mind was made up long before they wrote word one. Then there's the vid itself which is the strongest evidence that whoever shot it had an agenda and was an interested in capturing "the truth" as Adolf was in cleaning up the human gene pool.
QUOTE
BAM godwinned.
Reversed.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 17 2015,11:46
PP has released an apology video saying that chick and the horrible things she said was fucked up, but deny that they are profiting by selling fetal organs. They are donating them for recompense, but they aren't selling them.< http://www.cnn.com/2015....didates >
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 17 2015,11:59
Again, if they were raking in the cash, they'd have a lot more clinics open.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 17 2015,12:01
(Malcolm @ Jul. 17 2015,14:59)
QUOTE
Again, if they were raking in the cash, they'd have a lot more clinics open.
Just like Subway.
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 17 2015,12:08
(GORDON @ Jul. 17 2015,14:01)
QUOTE
(Malcolm @ Jul. 17 2015,14:59)
QUOTE
Again, if they were raking in the cash, they'd have a lot more clinics open.
Just like Subway.
I still want to see the financial smoking gun. Find me some payments from biomed companies to PP showing the alleged profits.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 17 2015,12:20
Ok I have them somewhere here on my desk, give me a minute.
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 17 2015,12:25
If Woodward and Berstein can follow the money and uncover Watergate, then someone ought to be able to do the same here. Oh shit, do we even have journalists anymore that know how to do anything except link someone else's work?
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 17 2015,12:27
I know! I mean shit, at this rate it would almost take a hidden camera to get a PP official to lay out their methods for harvesting fetal organs intact so they can maximize the value of each one before anyone paid any attention.
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 17 2015,12:32
1) They aren't getting rich off this. They have to deal with the costs of transporting things.2) They are required to get the consent of the patient.
3)
QUOTE
lay out their methods for harvesting fetal organs intact so they can maximize the value of each one before anyone paid any attention.
Well shit, we'll just have them throw things into a giant shredder from this point on. That way we'll waste everything equally. Might want to go after all those DMV commercials I see for organ donation, too. Doctors could try a little less hard when they see the back of your license signed.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 17 2015,12:39
Before this event, show of hands, who knew PP was harvesting fetal matter?Why was this a big secret?
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 17 2015,13:35
Knew? I never looked, but I wouldn't be shocked if they did.QUOTE
Why was this a big secret?
Because some people would explode, like they have, calling PP organ vendors and butchers. They have enough trouble with people wanting to kill them, quite literally, already. "Secret" also isn't the word I'd use. They made an announcement a few days ago and I don't have a copy of their website from before this news story, but I wouldn't be taken aback if it's in there, somewhere, in the fine print or in some kind of previously published document.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 17 2015,13:55
Hell, I'm surprised that they don't use this as advertising since it is so innocuous. "We'll donate your goo to science!" right on the poster, because no matter what this doesn't have a ghoulish aspect, at all, and there's no gray area, and people who have an opinion about it are just stupid.
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 17 2015,14:09
If someone's up in arms about this, then the government's organ donation push is just as bad. Why did I never heard them complain about that? Do you see hospitals advertising how many lungs they extract from ERs every year?
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 17 2015,14:24
People who are grown-ups sign a form saying they consent to be organ donors. The people who are already a little shaky on the "when does life begin?" fence might have a problem with not only (what they see as) babies being killed, but they are also being farmed.And I know you knew the difference.
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 17 2015,14:35
Farmed? Farming would be if PP stopped handing out condoms. That's the biggest killshot for me in all this. They will, for free, give you some latex that totally undercuts their Illuminati organ farming biz. Where's the PP campaign with a cowboy riding a horse with no saddle above the slogan "It's better bareback?"EDIT: I'm waiting for the conspiracy theorists who think PP has dudes in the back with needles poking holes in the freebies before repackaging them. With all the cash they make from selling livers, I bet they're millionaires up in that mug.
Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 17 2015,16:46
(GORDON @ Jul. 17 2015,14:39)
QUOTE
Before this event, show of hands, who knew PP was harvesting fetal matter?
*raises hand*
Where did you think the tissue samples that have been driving our medical advancements for decades were coming from? Poultry?
QUOTE
Why was this a big secret?
Until this story I wasn't aware it was a secret. When a woman goes to them for an abortion they ask if they would like the tissue to be donated to medical research or not. So at least everyone who's gotten an abortion at PP would know about it. That's a lot of people to be using the word "secret."
As to this making them millionaires, at $30 in handling fees per liver factored against probably between $20 and $40 in storage costs and shipping per liver, at one or two livers per day per clinic (rather high based on the video, actually, as that would only apply to the busiest of clinics, but lets be generous) across their 700 health centers they should clear a million dollars of profit from livers after only infinity years.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 21 2015,06:53
There's no point linking the article because the author has an obvious opinion and therefore would be dismissed out of hand as "biased," but I found this particular passage sort of gross:QUOTE
A former Planned Parenthood clinic director tells of being mystified that in her clinic various keypads and passwords were set to 2229 — “Spells out ‘baby,’” a staffer helpfully informed her. The garbage truck that hauled away the clinic’s “products of conception” — human scraps — was mockingly referred to by staffers as “the nursery.”
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 21 2015,07:28
(GORDON @ Jul. 21 2015,08:53)
QUOTE
There's no point linking the article because the author has an obvious opinion and therefore would be dismissed out of hand as "biased," but I found this particular passage sort of gross:
QUOTE
A former Planned Parenthood clinic director tells of being mystified that in her clinic various keypads and passwords were set to 2229 — “Spells out ‘baby,’” a staffer helpfully informed her. The garbage truck that hauled away the clinic’s “products of conception” — human scraps — was mockingly referred to by staffers as “the nursery.”
This reminds me of the Satanic abuse stories in the '80s. It's simply too good to be true for one side's agenda. Or should I post all the shit about Haliburton I can find from a decade ago?
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 21 2015,07:42
Exactly.
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 22 2015,10:35
< Another article > that illustrates why I find this to be overblown.QUOTE
She is alert to market demand — “I’d say a lot of people want liver,” she tells her lunch companions — and understands how to carry out an abortion to maximize the quality of the organs that can be supplied to buyers afterward.
“We’ve been very good at getting heart, lung, liver, because we know that,” says Nucatola, “so I’m not gonna crush that part, I’m gonna basically crush below, I’m gonna crush above, and I’m gonna see if I can get it all intact.” She talks about properly trained abortion doctors using ultrasound to ensure that forceps don’t damage organs destined for sale.
“We’ve been very good at getting heart, lung, liver, because we know that,” says Nucatola, “so I’m not gonna crush that part, I’m gonna basically crush below, I’m gonna crush above, and I’m gonna see if I can get it all intact.” She talks about properly trained abortion doctors using ultrasound to ensure that forceps don’t damage organs destined for sale.
Holy crap. It's almost like she's a trained medical professional that understands the value of one part of the body over another. Sorry she's not reaching in with giant robot hands and doing it less elegantly.
QUOTE
On Tuesday, a second undercover video was released. This one shows Dr. Mary Gatter, the president of Planned Parenthood’s medical directors council, haggling over the price for fetal organs. “We’re not in it for the money,” Gatter says; still, the payment “has to be big enough that it’s worthwhile for me.”
Yes, worthwhile to spend time training your staff to do this shit, paying for instruments to do it, paying for equipment and people to transport it. Economics is a harsh mistress and doesn't give a fuck if you're talking about human organs or pipe organs. By the by, $30-100 is a shitty, shitty price for black market organs.
Finally, we get to the moral outrage at the bottom of all this...
QUOTE
Even abortion-rights advocates — especially abortion-rights advocates — should insist that abortion and its aftermath be treated with the gravest dignity and respect. For nothing turns hearts and minds against the culture of abortion than its tendency to dehumanize. And could anything be more dehumanizing than the reduction of an unborn baby to its parts?
Uh ... no. Fuck off if you think you get to tell others what is and isn't deserving of reverence in their lives as it relates to their body. There is no subject, no anything, that's so taboo you have to approach it like Job talking to Yahweh.
Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 22 2015,11:52
I agree somewhat on the dignity and respect angle. The thing is all these videos the Planned Parenthood professionals have been nothing but ... well, professional. It's clear that they are trying to make the best of an unfortunate situation, and trying to find positive uses for these tissues in medical studies is one such step.The only gleeful jeering I see in these videos comes from the person doing the taping, trying to goad them into saying something untoward.
Posted by Vince on Jul. 22 2015,11:57
I'm surprised that this is a story, really. What they do is ghoulish. Even without selling the body parts. To me, selling the parts is slightly less ghoulish than running the unborn through a blender.
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 22 2015,12:15
The alternative to abortion clinics...
Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 22 2015,18:19
That's only about half the alternative. The other half is children raised by teens who are even more likely to end up also needing abortions later on.
Posted by Vince on Jul. 23 2015,06:51
I'm telling you, remove some warning labels and this shit would work itself out.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 28 2015,07:36
A third video was released today of a phlebotomist talking about how he was tasked to get the good organs out of the aborted fetuses so PP could make more money.Just so I am clear, there are intelligent people on this forum who are saying that there is no gray area here, and it is absolutely good that they are harvesting organs? I just want to make sure I am not just being a crank about this.
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 28 2015,08:20
QUOTE
... phlebotomist talking about how he was tasked to get the good organs out of the aborted fetuses so PP could make more money.
His job is taking blood from veins. Not organs from aborted fetuses.
QUOTE
Phlebotomists are people trained to draw blood from a patient for clinical or medical testing, transfusions, donations, or research.
Either the dude doesn't know his job or the vid is fucked. Yet again, they've already admitted it's maybe $100 each. The black market pays more. $100 probably covers transport.
QUOTE
and it is absolutely good that they are harvesting organs?
As I said before, we'll throw everything away in a big-ass blender if it makes you feel better. Then they'll get bitched at for that, too.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 28 2015,08:26
(Malcolm @ Jul. 28 2015,11:20)
QUOTE
QUOTE
... phlebotomist talking about how he was tasked to get the good organs out of the aborted fetuses so PP could make more money.
His job is taking blood from veins. Not organs from aborted fetuses.
QUOTE
Phlebotomists are people trained to draw blood from a patient for clinical or medical testing, transfusions, donations, or research.
Either the dude doesn't know his job or the vid is fucked. Yet again, they've already admitted it's maybe $100 each. The black market pays more. $100 probably covers transport.
In the article I read the dude says he wasn't sure why he was hired for that job since he was a blood doctor, but he was.
And I've met more phlebotomists before I was 30 that you will your whole life, since you are trying to school me. :-D
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 28 2015,08:30
I knew at least a couple people that were or were training to be. Hung out at the plasma cine enough, too.
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 28 2015,10:14
< Douchebags trolling for votes >. I pretty much never vote. I would actually go to a polling place for this to make sure funding stays in place.
Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 28 2015,11:06
QUOTE
there are intelligent people on this forum who are saying that there is no gray area here, and it is absolutely good that they are harvesting organs?
Everything has grey areas. But if you were to ask me to I think it's a good think that:
* they make available to medical researchers fetus organs that would be otherwise put into the trash when
* the mother has indicated she would like the fetus donated to medical science and
* due to funding pressures they have to charge a nominal fee to cover the costs involved in handling and delivery?
Well, my answer would be yes, that's good.
It would be better if they didn't have to charge the nominal fees, but we don't live in a world where Republicans are capable of understanding the massive amount of work they do to reduce the need for abortions and keep yanking their funding. It would be better if they could donate all the fetuses to medical research but what the mother wants is also an important factor. It would be better if we lived in a world where all pregnancies were pre-planned and all expectant mothers were ready so none never needed an abortion, but contraception technology isn't quite that advanced yet and our society's attitudes towards sex and related topics is too screwed to use it properly even if it were.
Is it an absolute good? No, there are many ways in which things could be better. But given the facts as they are it's the best of a bad lot of options.
Posted by Vince on Jul. 29 2015,06:30
Okay, the more I'm seeing the more I agree that there needs to be an investigation. From what is said in the video, that are purposely trying profit from the organs (illegal, they can only recoup the costs) and intentionally trying to structure the profits so as not to draw attention.
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 30 2015,10:30
< Details > about organ usage.QUOTE
DOES THE WOMAN HAVE TO AGREE TO USING THE TISSUE FOR RESEARCH?
Yes, she has to give consent. And the matter can't be raised until after she has decided to have an abortion.
Yes, she has to give consent. And the matter can't be raised until after she has decided to have an abortion.
QUOTE
IS USING FETAL TISSUE A NEW IDEA?
Hardly. Scientists have worked with it since the 1930s. The 1954 Nobel Prize in medicine was awarded for work with fetal tissue that led to developing a vaccine against polio. The National Institutes of Health spent $76 million on human fetal tissue research in fiscal 2014.
Hardly. Scientists have worked with it since the 1930s. The 1954 Nobel Prize in medicine was awarded for work with fetal tissue that led to developing a vaccine against polio. The National Institutes of Health spent $76 million on human fetal tissue research in fiscal 2014.
Additionally, I'm still waiting for someone, anyone, to provide hard financial evidence PP is profiting in any way, significant or otherwise, from them. Show me bank accounts with transfers or briefcases full of cash.
Posted by Vince on Jul. 30 2015,10:50
Usually an investigation is done to establish such proof. Investigations are warranted based on evidence, and the video evidence suggests they are structuring their pricing in a way as to not draw attention to the money they are getting for the baby parts. Had everything been on the up and up, why care if attention was drawn to it? Of course, they might just be wanting to avoid a hassle, but again... that's what an investigation would discover.
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 30 2015,10:54
QUOTE
Had everything been on the up and up, why care if attention was drawn to it?
Because psychos still get to vote and they didn't want to deal with people like Rand Paul threatening to defund them while they already have to deal with absurd, draconian state laws. This is one of the first real sticking points I've had with him. He's proven himself to be a libertarian in name only. Just another vote whore now.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 30 2015,11:08
Why is this a thing that can only be funded by the government?
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 30 2015,11:13
(GORDON @ Jul. 30 2015,13:08)
QUOTE
Why is this a thing that can only be funded by the government?
It's not only funded by them. If the cash is yanked, they don't have hundreds of millions of dollars waiting in the vaults to make it up.
QUOTE
Planned Parenthood receives about a third of its money in government grants and contracts (about $360 million in 2009).
...
Planned Parenthood is also funded by private donors, with a membership base of over 700,000 active donors whose contributions account for approximately one quarter of the organization's revenue.
...
Planned Parenthood is also funded by private donors, with a membership base of over 700,000 active donors whose contributions account for approximately one quarter of the organization's revenue.
Finally, it also does its damndest to make sure it doesn't have to any more perform surgical abortions than its patients need ...
QUOTE
Planned Parenthood argues for the wide availability of emergency contraception (EC) measures.
...
Citing the need for medically accurate information in sex education, Planned Parenthood opposes abstinence-only education in public schools. Instead, Planned Parenthood is a provider of, and endorses, comprehensive sex education, which includes discussion of both abstinence and birth control.
...
Citing the need for medically accurate information in sex education, Planned Parenthood opposes abstinence-only education in public schools. Instead, Planned Parenthood is a provider of, and endorses, comprehensive sex education, which includes discussion of both abstinence and birth control.
... but the "every sperm is sacred" and "sex outside marriage = sin" PAC groups continue to hinder them because they believe condoms are the work of Satan.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 30 2015,12:03
So I'm sure your insurance would rather pay for an abortion that a birth. Put private insurance in the mix and then the abortion clinics can overcharge everything like regular doctors do.Plus, cut the federal funding and sell it to the KKK and other hate groups to hold fundraisers since killing non-white babies is so important to the health of the nation.
Posted by Vince on Jul. 30 2015,12:21
Heheh
Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 30 2015,12:40
QUOTE
So I'm sure your insurance would rather pay for an abortion that a birth.
No, the insurance would rather pay for contraceptives, because those are even cheaper.
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 30 2015,12:43
(TPRJones @ Jul. 30 2015,14:40)
QUOTE
QUOTE
So I'm sure your insurance would rather pay for an abortion that a birth.
No, the insurance would rather pay for contraceptives, because those are even cheaper.
I'm pretty sure PP literally gives those away.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 30 2015,12:48
Yeah, I'm not sure that is a point you should try to contradict. Doesn't health insurance pay for abortions? If not, why?I guess I'm wondering why federal money is needed at all in this era of Obamacare.
Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 30 2015,15:34
I don't think most insurance covers abortions, and I'm almost certain Obamacare doesn't.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 30 2015,15:40
Well it should, and if it did PP wouldn't need further funding. I sez.
Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 30 2015,15:45
No arguement here on that point. Although something would still need to replace the work PP does with contraceptives.I did a little searching, and ACA policies can elect to cover abortions but they can't use any federal funding to cover it. If they do they have to use separate bank accounts and separate billing systems just for abortions to make sure no federal funds get mingled in there, so most don't. Medicare/Medicaid also can't be used for abortions. Laws in 23 states don't allow insurance policies in that state to cover abortions at all.
You'll need to fight a lot of Republicans at the federal and state levels to get any of that to change. Until then if PP goes down there will be a big rise in both unwanted children being born and back-alley abortions killing women.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 30 2015,15:47
So the federal money that goes into PP has to be kept in the non-abortion bank account?
Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 30 2015,16:07
Apparently those rules only apply to insurance (and Medic*), not PP.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 30 2015,17:05
So the government can buy abortions through PP funding, but they can't fund abortions through Obamacare or Medic*. Makes sense.
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 30 2015,18:27
The gov't funding is explicitly not for abortions. It pays for other things, by law.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 30 2015,19:21
So as I said, the government money has to go into the "not for abortions" bank account, then.
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 30 2015,19:41
(GORDON @ Jul. 30 2015,21:21)
QUOTE
So as I said, the government money has to go into the "not for abortions" bank account, then.
Yes.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 30 2015,20:09
And people are fooled by that because it's brilliant subterfuge.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 31 2015,20:18
These videos were so silly and wrong that a judge decided that we shouldn't be allowed to see them. Videos release blocked.< http://www.foxnews.com/us....n-group >
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 31 2015,21:06
QUOTE
In Friday's lawsuit, the National Abortion Federation alleges that the center created a fake company to get into the federation's annual meetings in 2014 and 2015 and then recorded its members with the goal of smearing abortion-rights supporters.
Oh yeah, they're dealing with a full deck.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 31 2015,21:08
Well thank god they are being censored.
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 31 2015,21:14
(GORDON @ Jul. 31 2015,23:08)
QUOTE
Well thank god they are being censored.
QUOTE
"The safety and security of our members is our top priority," Vicki Saporta, association president and CEO, said in a statement. "That security has been compromised by the illegal activities of a group with ties to those who believe it is justifiable to murder abortion providers."
Let's imagine for a second these vids have distinct place names or addresses of where people live, work, or hang out. Now let's take a look at the asswipes you're dealing with:
QUOTE
The Center for Medical Progress (CMP) is an anti-abortion political organization founded by David Daleiden in 2013.
...
Daleiden, an associate of Lila Rose, James O'Keefe, Troy Newman, and Cheryl Sullenger...
...
Daleiden, an associate of Lila Rose, James O'Keefe, Troy Newman, and Cheryl Sullenger...
Pay attention to that last name.
QUOTE
Sullenger and her husband, Randall, both pled guilty in 1988 to conspiring to blow up the Alavarado Medical Center abortion clinic with a gasoline bomb She served two years in U.S. federal prison. After her release in 1990, she relocated her anti-abortion activities from California to Kansas.
Nothing says respect for life like arson and murder of those outside the womb.
This group has been borderline harassing PP for over a decade. They have many vids prior to this one. The feds looked at the evidence and decided there wasn't anything worth following up on. Also, secret recordings are illegal in Cali, so they may have broken the law.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 31 2015,23:37
Obama is BFFs with Bill Ayers, who actually killed a guy with a bomb a long time ago. There seems to be selective fear of domestic terrorists.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 01 2015,08:59
I have no idea who the fuck Bill Ayers is or what he has to do with the vids in this thread.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 01 2015,12:20
Your argument was that we needed to be protected from these vids because of domestic terrorists. My response is that the government doesn't care about giving different domestic terrorists access to the Oval Office, so your argument is invalid.They were only censored because they are making a lefty thing look bad.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 01 2015,12:36
There were actually jokes when the first video was released, "They will probably investigate the people releasing the vids, not PP." And here we are.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 03 2015,10:07
< Senate votes > on whether or not botched illegal abortions will be on the upswing in the near future.< More >.
QUOTE
“I think most Americans don’t want their tax dollars going to this,” Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.), a presidential candidate and co-sponsor of the Senate bill, said Sunday in a CNN interview. “When something is so morally repugnant to so many people, why should tax dollars go to this?”
Hell, Rand, I can say that about most of the things Congress funds.
I find it hilarious that the pachyderms respond with this...
QUOTE
Republicans say community health centers and other providers will be able to accommodate the women served by Planned Parenthood’s roughly 700 affiliated clinics. Opponents of defunding say there is no way to smoothly accommodate the group’s 2.7 million annual clients in other settings.
... especially after they've spent how many years bitching about Obamacare fucking with people's health care choices?
QUOTE
Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) said the videos “literally shock the conscience.”
Wow. What can I add to that sentence? Besides my theory that Mitch McConnell is, in reality, Slippy Frog from "Starfox."
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 07 2015,10:29
< South set > for an increase in illegal, unsafe abortions where nobody gets jack shit and medical science doesn't get to advance.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 07 2015,13:35
Christ it's like no one is going to profit from these unwanted pregnancies.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 07 2015,14:10
(GORDON @ Aug. 07 2015,15:35)
QUOTE
Christ it's like no one is going to profit from these unwanted pregnancies.
No one is.
QUOTE
Sherilyn J. Sawyer, the director of Harvard University and Brigham and Women’s Hospital’s biorepository told FactCheck.org that "there’s no way there’s a profit at that price." She wrote that non-profit hospitals provide adult "tissue blocks from surgical procedures" at around $100–500 per block, and noted that "$30-100 is completely reasonable and normal fee." Jim Vaught, president of the International Society for Biological and Environmental Repositories said that "$30 to $100 per sample is a reasonable charge for clinical operations to recover their costs for providing tissue."
Still waiting for those damning financial statements no one seems to be able to find. Maybe it's all done in cash and they're stashing it under their beds.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 07 2015,14:20
Well it's a good thing that fetal tissue research is being done at a loss then, by people out of the goodness of their hearts. There should be more people like that.++++
Actually, I just figured it out. Bush stopped federal spending on fetal stem cell research. But the fed is giving PP money BUT NOT FOR ABORTIONS, for the other stuff, and we all agree to be fooled by that, but PP is selling the fetal tissue for less than it is worth to researchers, since the fed is subsidizing them and they don't need the full value.... which means the fed is still paying for fetal stem cell research, in a roundabout way.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 12 2015,10:26
< Holy shit >, look who's operating illegally.QUOTE
In late July, shortly after the group released the first of its videos, the attorney general’s office sent it a delinquency notice saying it hadn’t paid the required fees for fiscal years 2013 and 2014 and hadn’t submitted necessary copies of its IRS forms. If CMP fails to remedy the situation within 30 days, it could lose its nonprofit status.
Here's the only member who's not a rabid anti-abortion activist...
QUOTE
The only person without a long history of anti-abortion work is Nichole Surkala, who is listed as the center’s contact if it is sued.
Surkala was convicted in California in 2007 of willful cruelty to her 12-year-old son, according to court papers. Police found she kept a horse and seven dogs in a house in Modesto that was filled with animal feces and rotting produce. Two telephone numbers listed for Surkala were disconnected.
Surkala was convicted in California in 2007 of willful cruelty to her 12-year-old son, according to court papers. Police found she kept a horse and seven dogs in a house in Modesto that was filled with animal feces and rotting produce. Two telephone numbers listed for Surkala were disconnected.
Sounds like some real stand up cats running the Center for Medical Progress, which oddly enough, has 0 medical experts consulting either on a for profit or pro bono basis.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 12 2015,11:31
As I said, good thing we're investigating the people releasing the videos.
Posted by TheCatt on Aug. 12 2015,11:41
(GORDON @ Aug. 12 2015,14:31)
QUOTE
As I said, good thing we're investigating the people releasing the videos.
Yes, we should just trust all videos at face value.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 12 2015,12:39
Of course we shouldn't. Malcolm's fervent, passionate, uncompromising defense of PP just skews my perception and makes me think PP will be given a pass and the peeps doing the investigating will be persecuted.But, again as Malcolm says, the "books" shouldn't be investigated since we don't have the books that would suggest any wrongdoing is being done, only these videos, which are obviously biased and should be dismissed out of hand.
Also maybe we should start harvesting organs from death row prisoners without their consent. Think of all the beneficial research that could be done with basically human garbage. If that works out, we can start looking at other undesirable members of society that could be harvested for the greater good. Nothing is more important than the greater good, if you really think about it. Then we'll start deciding what "the greater good" consists of. I bet I could do something with global warming.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 12 2015,12:49
QUOTE
But, again as Malcolm says, the "books" shouldn't be investigated since we don't have the books that would suggest any wrongdoing is being done, only these videos, which are obviously biased and should be dismissed out of hand.
Go ahead, check their books. If there's all this cash being made, it's going somewhere. Someone's laundering it, someone's dropping it into what would need to be several deeply hidden accounts, or someone's got a really big fucking vault in their basement. These claims have as much credibility as claims that the Bermuda Triangle eats ships and planes. The videos are extremely biased and were shot, possibly under violation of law and certainly under false pretenses. They're clearly edited. If you've got nothing to hide, release them in full.
I find it hilarious that not a single PP patient has come out saying they've been pressured into giving consent or were dealt with in a cold, inhumane manner. Anyone ever dealt first-hand with any personnel there? I don't remember them being duplicitous or assholes.
QUOTE
If that works out, we can start looking at other undesirable members of society that could be harvested for the greater good.
I'm not convinced that a group of cells physically living inside someone else is a member of society quite yet.
I'm not defending PP so much as I am the right to obtain an abortion unfettered by bullshit. That wouldn't be necessary if some states would acknowledge the fourth amendment. If they are indeed illegally trafficking in this sort of thing, nail them to the wall.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 12 2015,12:52
< Bias, ignore this. >QUOTE
At that point, what did the product of conception technician do with the different body parts?
If it was during a time that we were participating in a research study, they would pick out whatever was requested--whether it was a specific organ, eyeballs, whatever it was--they would take that out and put that in a specimen bag....
How much did shipping typically cost?
The researchers provided the Styrofoam box and dry ice to Planned Parenthood. Literally the only cost we had was shipping the box. And that was about $20 every time we shipped. So Planned Parenthood is getting $200 per specimen, and we’re taking all the specimens, putting them in one box and shipping it off for $20. The different fetal body parts are not shipped individually.
Does Planned Parenthood have to hire an employee to sort through the body parts and put them in these containers?
It's not like we hire someone just to separate these parts for research because after every single abortion, a product of conception technician reassembles the parts of the baby to make sure that everything was removed. If they don't, that can be fatal for a woman. We had several instances where our product of conception technician failed the patient because they would come back in and there would be a leg still in their uterus and that causes very serious infection.
To send the body parts to a research laboratory, it's just a matter of separating them into different bags.
If it was during a time that we were participating in a research study, they would pick out whatever was requested--whether it was a specific organ, eyeballs, whatever it was--they would take that out and put that in a specimen bag....
How much did shipping typically cost?
The researchers provided the Styrofoam box and dry ice to Planned Parenthood. Literally the only cost we had was shipping the box. And that was about $20 every time we shipped. So Planned Parenthood is getting $200 per specimen, and we’re taking all the specimens, putting them in one box and shipping it off for $20. The different fetal body parts are not shipped individually.
Does Planned Parenthood have to hire an employee to sort through the body parts and put them in these containers?
It's not like we hire someone just to separate these parts for research because after every single abortion, a product of conception technician reassembles the parts of the baby to make sure that everything was removed. If they don't, that can be fatal for a woman. We had several instances where our product of conception technician failed the patient because they would come back in and there would be a leg still in their uterus and that causes very serious infection.
To send the body parts to a research laboratory, it's just a matter of separating them into different bags.
< More bias, continue to ignore. >
QUOTE
That pressure ends up pushing technicians to get blood and organs even when the women expressly forbid it. In one case O'Donnell recalls, a late-term mother refused consent, which O’Donnell explained to the other technician. "You have to make sure you get her," O'Donnell’s colleague told her, but O'Donnell said she had refused consent. That didn't stop the technician, however. "If there was a higher gestation, and the technicians needed it, there were times when they would just take what they wanted. And these mothers don’t know. And there’s no way they would know."
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 12 2015,12:55
(Malcolm @ Aug. 12 2015,15:49)
QUOTE
I'm not defending PP so much as I am the right to obtain an abortion unfettered by bullshit. That wouldn't be necessary if some states would acknowledge the fourth amendment. If they are indeed illegally trafficking in this sort of thing, nail them to the wall.
If PP were the only place a woman could get an abortion from a real doctor, I wouldn't argue this point so much.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 12 2015,12:55
An interview with an ex-techie, perhaps with an axe to grind, with no evidence except hearsay.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 12 2015,12:56
(Malcolm @ Aug. 12 2015,15:55)
QUOTE
An interview with an ex-techie, perhaps with an axe to grind, with no evidence except hearsay.
The first quote was from a PP Employee of the Year. Big axe.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 12 2015,13:07
(GORDON @ Aug. 12 2015,14:56)
QUOTE
(Malcolm @ Aug. 12 2015,15:55)
QUOTE
An interview with an ex-techie, perhaps with an axe to grind, with no evidence except hearsay.
The first quote was from a PP Employee of the Year. Big axe.
Who abruptly quit.
QUOTE
In 2009, a year after being named “Employee of the Year” at her clinic, Johnson, 35, said she witnessed a doctor performing an abortion on an ultrasound and quit her job.
I quit my last job after witnessing my boss kick a puppy. I'll say that on any shady camera interview you want.
Posted by TPRJones on Aug. 12 2015,14:47
QUOTE
If PP were the only place a woman could get an abortion from a real doctor, I wouldn't argue this point so much.
For over 90% of the country PP is the only place to get an abortion. Regular doctors just don't do them anymore. If you go to your GP and ask for an abortion the odds are very high he or she will refer you to the closest PP. (There's an exception for medically urgent abortions, of course, but few are)
As the the quotes, if they are charging more for the specimens than what it costs them to preserve and deliver them, then they need to lower the price. They shouldn't be making a profit on those, just failing to lose money.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 12 2015,14:59
It's weird that so many doctors wont do them since all smart people recognize that it isn't a baby or a life, it's just a parasitic cluster of cells.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 12 2015,15:08
(GORDON @ Aug. 12 2015,16:59)
QUOTE
It's weird that so many doctors wont do them since all smart people recognize that it isn't a baby or a life, it's just a parasitic cluster of cells.
Normal docs won't get near them because of the political static and insurance concerns and sometimes insane state regs.
Posted by TPRJones on Aug. 12 2015,16:25
Nah, mostly it's because most insurance can't or won't pay for it.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 17 2015,12:29
< Florida politicians > still being bitches.QUOTE
He [Republican Gov. Rick Scott.] ordered the inspections after stealthily recorded videos showed Planned Parenthood officials discussing how they provide aborted fetal organs for research. Abortion opponents say the videos show the organization is illegally harvesting and selling organs. The videos brought congressional scrutiny including calls to withdraw federal funding from the organization. Scott called the videos troubling and has previously said it's illegal to sell body parts.
Go troll for votes, whore.
QUOTE
[Executive Director Laura] Goodhue has said Florida doesn't have a tissue donation program.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 25 2015,10:19
< PP sues Louisiana > because Jindal's whoring himself out for more votes.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 26 2015,10:49
< Why vids are bullshit >.QUOTE
The videos came as a horror to the many Americans who didn't have the full story. That's because they haven’t seen the unedited version of the secret footage as well. There is a stark difference in how the two videos portray Planned Parenthood. The unedited version includes more comments from Nucatola, where she explains that Planned Parenthood isn't selling tissue. “Affiliates are not looking to make money by doing this. They’re looking to serve their patients," she says.
I guess the incredibly honest and crusading dudes filming the vids didn't want anyone to hear that, though. It'd distract you from their underlying purpose:
QUOTE
They're not really concerned about fetal tissue trafficking; if they were, their videos probably wouldn't be so misleadingly edited. This is all just a guise to hide under so they can get what they really want: stop abortions.
Posted by TPRJones on Aug. 26 2015,11:08
Well, duh.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 27 2015,10:25
< Douchebag reactionaries > want a bust removed from the NPG. Fine, as long as they remove everything Nixon-related.QUOTE
Brent Bozell, chairman of ForAmerica, told the AP that Sanger believed eugenics could be used to “sterilize out of existence the poor, the blacks.”
Fail.
QUOTE
In "The Morality of Birth Control," a 1921 speech, she divided society into three groups: the "educated and informed" class that regulated the size of their families, the "intelligent and responsible" who desired to control their families however did not have the means or the knowledge and the "irresponsible and reckless people" whose religious scruples "prevent their exercising control over their numbers." Sanger concludes "there is no doubt in the minds of all thinking people that the procreation of this group should be stopped."
Unless you equate "poor and black" with "irresponsible and reckless."
In fact...
QUOTE
From 1939 to 1942 Sanger was an honorary delegate of the Birth Control Federation of America, which included a supervisory role—alongside Mary Lasker and Clarence Gamble—in the Negro Project, an effort to deliver birth control to poor black people. Sanger wanted the Negro Project to include black ministers in leadership roles, but other supervisors did not. To emphasize the benefits of involving black community leaders, she wrote to Gamble "we do not want word to go out that we want to exterminate the Negro population and the minister is the man who can straighten out that idea if it ever occurs to any of their more rebellious members."
... she worked with and for many of them. But I guess all this can be taken with a bit of ambiguity.
QUOTE
Sanger wrote, "we [do not] believe that the community could or should send to the lethal chamber the defective progeny resulting from irresponsible and unintelligent breeding."
Except that part.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 28 2015,10:21
(Malcolm @ Aug. 25 2015,12:19)
QUOTE
< PP sues Louisiana > because Jindal's whoring himself out for more votes.
< Alabama > joins the list of states run by assholes.
Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 01 2015,12:51
< Defunding efforts fail >, says Slippy Toad.
Posted by Leisher on Sep. 01 2015,14:04
< Political cartoon on the topic. >I should point out that a very left leaning person I know posted that on the Twitters.
Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 01 2015,14:21
Let's fix the bullshit banner in that thing:QUOTE
Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 05 2015,09:39
< Anti-abortion activists > respond in calm, measured way. I get the odd feeling this is exactly what CMP wanted, considering they've got a founding member that was in jail for plotting this type of thing.QUOTE
Around 3:30 AM on Friday morning, the Planned Parenthood health center in Pullman, Washington was set on fire.
Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 09 2015,10:13
< Seems fair >.QUOTE
he same day the GOP-controlled House Judiciary Committee held a hearing to "expose" Planned Parenthood's "horrific abortion practices," members of another House committee announced that their federal investigation into the family planning provider has so far turned up no evidence of wrongdoing.
...
Planned Parenthood was not invited to testify at the hearing.
...
The Judiciary Committee, meanwhile, did not appear to be concerned with the facts of the Planned Parenthood investigation. Lawmakers instead used the hearing as an opportunity to decry abortion in general. An emotional Rep. Trent Franks (R-Ariz.) called abortion "the worst human rights atrocity in the history of the United States of America."
"What is so liberating about brutally and painfully dismembering living, helpless human babies?" Franks said.
...
Planned Parenthood was not invited to testify at the hearing.
...
The Judiciary Committee, meanwhile, did not appear to be concerned with the facts of the Planned Parenthood investigation. Lawmakers instead used the hearing as an opportunity to decry abortion in general. An emotional Rep. Trent Franks (R-Ariz.) called abortion "the worst human rights atrocity in the history of the United States of America."
"What is so liberating about brutally and painfully dismembering living, helpless human babies?" Franks said.
Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 11 2015,10:18
< Office Depot >. This one seems semi-bullshit if she's paying for the copies herself.QUOTE
Company spokeswoman Karen Denning tells the Chicago Tribune ( < http://trib.in/1Kb5StR > ) that Office Depot prohibits the copying of material that advocates "the persecution of certain groups of people," among other criteria.
Eat a dick. If I want to print, "Fuck the cheating, cock-sucking New England Patriots and all their fans," I ought to be able to.
Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 12 2015,09:25
< Pachyderm whores > threaten gov't shutdown and have selected this as their golden calf.QUOTE
The conservative House Freedom Caucus, with more than 40 members, on Thursday vowed to oppose any spending bill that includes Planned Parenthood funds.
Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) has been the leading Republican opponent of demands to link an end to Planned Parenthood’s funding with the government-funding measure.
Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell (R-Ky.) has been the leading Republican opponent of demands to link an end to Planned Parenthood’s funding with the government-funding measure.
There are scattered voices of reason:
QUOTE
“If you really want to solve the problem, get a pro-life president in 18 months,” said Rep. Tom Cole (R-Okla.) “In the interim, I think we can make some progress and do some good things, but the hearings are an important part of educating the public.”
He also said it was a bad idea to tie a shutdown to the anti-abortion rights movement because Planned Parenthood has a strong base of support.
...
Rep. Charlie Dent (R-Pa.), a centrist, agreed a shutdown would be a “tactical and strategic blunder.”
He also said it was a bad idea to tie a shutdown to the anti-abortion rights movement because Planned Parenthood has a strong base of support.
...
Rep. Charlie Dent (R-Pa.), a centrist, agreed a shutdown would be a “tactical and strategic blunder.”
But reason doesn't fill reelection coffers, and whores will do anything for cash.
Posted by GORDON on Sep. 12 2015,09:31
Just stop the public funding of the abortion company and make private insurance cover abortions. It isn't like the government hasn't already taken them over. All Obama has to do is sign some form somewhere and POOF, Executive Order.Oh but wait, that would actually solve the problem and help people instead of giving the dems a massive bat to beat the repubs with. So we can't do that.
Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 12 2015,09:50
As opposed to massive shutdown bat the elephants are trying to swing?
Posted by GORDON on Sep. 12 2015,09:50
I don't think losing federal money would shut them down.
Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 12 2015,10:00
(GORDON @ Sep. 12 2015,11:50)
QUOTE
I don't think losing federal money would shut them down.
The Republicans are threatening to shutdown the entire gov't over it.
Posted by GORDON on Sep. 12 2015,10:04
(Malcolm @ Sep. 12 2015,13:00)
QUOTE
(GORDON @ Sep. 12 2015,11:50)
QUOTE
I don't think losing federal money would shut them down.
The Republicans are threatening to shutdown the entire gov't over it.
Which I don't care about. Good. Fuck the government.
We learned last time they only shut down the things that citizens want, anyway, that pays for itself through park entry fees and stuff. All the bureaucrats and military contractors kept getting paid. It isn't like the government loves us or anything.
PP will be fine, I think. There's a massive demand for abortions that they are best equipped to provide, so the abortion of life will find a way even without government funds.
Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 12 2015,10:10
Cut funding to PP and I bet the number of illegal abortions and unplanned births will jump like a mofo. Then there's this...QUOTE
The Court instead recognized that the right to an abortion is a fundamental right included within the guarantee of personal privacy. As a fundamental right, regulations limiting abortion had to be justified by a "compelling state interest," and legislative enactments regulating abortion had to be narrowly tailored to meet the compelling interests...
State laws restricting abortions have tripled in the past five years or so due to very loose interpretations of "compelling."
Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 12 2015,10:35
QUOTE
Just stop the public funding of the abortion company and make private insurance cover abortions.
Employers claiming religious exemptions for providing contraception via employee insurance programs was a thing. I imagine the same would be extra true of abortions.
Posted by GORDON on Sep. 12 2015,10:43
(Malcolm @ Sep. 12 2015,13:10)
QUOTE
Cut funding to PP and I bet the number of illegal abortions and unplanned births will jump like a mofo.
Yeah that sucks but it doesn't really make me want to pay for someones abortion.
Posted by GORDON on Sep. 12 2015,10:45
(TPRJones @ Sep. 12 2015,13:35)
QUOTE
QUOTE
Just stop the public funding of the abortion company and make private insurance cover abortions.
Employers claiming religious exemptions for providing contraception via employee insurance programs was a thing. I imagine the same would be extra true of abortions.
So then the company advertising WE HEART ABORTIONS! gets all the Obamacare subscribers. They'll be rich between that and not paying for pregnancies/kids. People who are against abortions dont have to use that particular company.
Shit, that sounds like my way to become a billionaire. Brb.
Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 12 2015,11:31
But what about the employees? Why shouldn't they have any input into their own healthcare choices?Personally I'm all for getting the government out of all of this shit and letting the market take care of these sorts of things. But since we are stuck with government being in it then we've got to try to keep it from screwing anyone over harder than anyone else, no?
Posted by GORDON on Sep. 12 2015,12:22
It was my understanding that obamacare was cheaper than any company health plan.
Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 12 2015,16:23
It was my understanding that Obamacare is not available to anyone with access to a company healthcare plan.
Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 12 2015,16:40
(GORDON @ Sep. 12 2015,11:31)
QUOTE
Just stop the public funding of the abortion company and make private insurance cover abortions. It isn't like the government hasn't already taken them over. All Obama has to do is sign some form somewhere and POOF, Executive Order.
If employers don't get exemptions for any reason, including religion, then maybe.
Posted by GORDON on Sep. 12 2015,17:53
(TPRJones @ Sep. 12 2015,19:23)
QUOTE
It was my understanding that Obamacare is not available to anyone with access to a company healthcare plan.
Really? The Affordable Care Act is not available to you if your employer provides health insurance for $600 a month?
Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 13 2015,09:17
As far as I know, yes. But I could certainly be incorrect.
Posted by GORDON on Sep. 13 2015,09:54
I had never heard of that I thought anyone could get it.
Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 13 2015,12:23
Seems I was wrong. You can still get Obamacare, you just won't get the breaks that make it more affordable:QUOTE
If you have job-based coverage, you may be able to change to a Marketplace plan. But you might not qualify for premium tax credits or other savings that can make Marketplace insurance more affordable.
Posted by GORDON on Sep. 13 2015,12:27
How would that be verifiable? Last tax form I filled out just asked if I was covered, it didn't ask who covered me.I suppose that question might be asked on the obamacare forms.
Seems dumb, though, like an unnecessary level of complexity. The entire point of Obamacare, the way it was sold, was to get people cheaper insurance. Doesn't seem fair that you can't have cheaper insurance (through the subsidies) if your employer offers more expensive insurance. I think the subsidies are the only thing that might make it less expensive for the users.
Posted by GORDON on Sep. 13 2015,12:32
Anyway, so the original point was..... someone sells the WE LOVE ABORTING FETUSES health plan, and let everyone else keep not paying for abortions, and they will be rich and PP no longer needs to take government money to pretend to not spend it on abortions while the official story is "It's just a clump of cells, not a baby!" and then not mentioning the differentiated head and organs they badly want to donate to research at a loss.Government money can pay for the subsidies to buy the WE LOVE ABORTING FETUSES plan through obamacare.
Ugh.
No way around it, I guess. The war on minorities to stop them from breeding will continue. So sad and racist.
Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 18 2015,10:23
< House pachyderms vote in favour of another shutdown >.QUOTE
House GOP leaders hope the legislation will help avert a government shutdown by appeasing the dozens of conservatives who have pledged to defund Planned Parenthood at all costs. Lawmakers have five legislative days left to pass a spending bill and stop the shutdown that GOP leadership is aggressively working to avoid.
Democrats are seizing on the growing risk of a second GOP-led shutdown in two years. A half dozen House Democrats took to the floor Friday blasting the abortion bills.]House GOP leaders hope the legislation will help avert a government shutdown by appeasing the dozens of conservatives who have pledged to defund Planned Parenthood at all costs. Lawmakers have five legislative days left to pass a spending bill and stop the shutdown that GOP leadership is aggressively working to avoid.
Democrats are seizing on the growing risk of a second GOP-led shutdown in two years. A half dozen House Democrats took to the floor Friday blasting the abortion bills.
Democrats are seizing on the growing risk of a second GOP-led shutdown in two years. A half dozen House Democrats took to the floor Friday blasting the abortion bills.]House GOP leaders hope the legislation will help avert a government shutdown by appeasing the dozens of conservatives who have pledged to defund Planned Parenthood at all costs. Lawmakers have five legislative days left to pass a spending bill and stop the shutdown that GOP leadership is aggressively working to avoid.
Democrats are seizing on the growing risk of a second GOP-led shutdown in two years. A half dozen House Democrats took to the floor Friday blasting the abortion bills.
You've given your opposition enough ammo to last until the elections next year and polls show your opinion in the minority by a statistically significant amount. Bravo, retards. You're pissing away Congressional seats faster than the UK did with its former colonies post WWII.
Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 18 2015,12:10
It feels like we're about a decade away from either becoming a one-party system or having a new opposition party spring up to replace the Republicans with something less extreme.
Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 18 2015,12:13
The Republican platform: the entire country jacks off to a recording of Reagan saying, "We begin bombing in five minutes," every morning, and twice on Sundays.
Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 18 2015,13:06
< Numbers >.QUOTE
This time, more than 30 have signed a letter saying they'll vote to shut the whole government down unless Planned Parenthood is totally defunded. They seem determined to put on quite a political circus.
Reading their letter, a couple of things jumped out at me. One is that all of the signatories are men.
...
Consider for just a moment. According to the highly respected Guttmacher Institute, in 2010--the most recent year for which comprehensive data are available:
• Contraceptive care at publicly supported centers like Planned Parenthood helped women avert 2.2 million unintended pregnancies every year, which would have resulted in 1.1 million unplanned births, 761,000 abortions and 164,000 preterm or low-birth-weight births.
• Pap and HPV testing and HPV vaccination at publicly supported centers like Planned Parenthood prevented 3,700 cases of cervical cancer and 2,100 cervical cancer deaths.
• This resulted in net public savings of $13.6 billion, or $7.09 saved for every public dollar spent.
Reading their letter, a couple of things jumped out at me. One is that all of the signatories are men.
...
Consider for just a moment. According to the highly respected Guttmacher Institute, in 2010--the most recent year for which comprehensive data are available:
• Contraceptive care at publicly supported centers like Planned Parenthood helped women avert 2.2 million unintended pregnancies every year, which would have resulted in 1.1 million unplanned births, 761,000 abortions and 164,000 preterm or low-birth-weight births.
• Pap and HPV testing and HPV vaccination at publicly supported centers like Planned Parenthood prevented 3,700 cases of cervical cancer and 2,100 cervical cancer deaths.
• This resulted in net public savings of $13.6 billion, or $7.09 saved for every public dollar spent.
Again, I applaud the sterling political acumen on display here. Nothing says fiscal and moral superiority like saving $1 to spend $7.
Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 24 2015,10:21
< White House: > "Bring it on, bitches."QUOTE
The White House said Obama would not sign any bill that included the Senate amendment eliminating the group's funding.
"By eliminating federal funding for a major provider of health care, the Senate amendment ... would limit access to health care for women, men, and families across the nation, and disproportionately impact low-income individuals," the White House statement said.
"By eliminating federal funding for a major provider of health care, the Senate amendment ... would limit access to health care for women, men, and families across the nation, and disproportionately impact low-income individuals," the White House statement said.
Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 28 2015,13:00
< State AG finds > "no evidence whatsoever" that PP sells organs.QUOTE
The Democrat said interviews and documentation from his office's investigation show that tissue from the more than 300 surgical abortions performed at the St. Louis Planned Parenthood in June was properly incinerated. The nearly 50-page report details contracts that Koster said track fetal tissue from the abortion clinic to a pathology lab and then to an incinerator.
"We have discovered no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Planned Parenthood's St. Louis facility is selling fetal tissue," Koster said in a statement.
...
At least five other states — Georgia, Indiana, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania and South Dakota — also have cleared Planned Parenthood of breaking the law.
"We have discovered no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Planned Parenthood's St. Louis facility is selling fetal tissue," Koster said in a statement.
...
At least five other states — Georgia, Indiana, Massachusetts, Pennsylvania and South Dakota — also have cleared Planned Parenthood of breaking the law.
We ought to put the PP dudes in charge of all the shit we want covered up. So far the cover-up is flawless, almost like they aren't breaking the law at all.
Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 29 2015,12:05
< Hold up >, someone from Congress is chastising PP for not spending money properly. QUOTE
CHAFFETZ: Your compensation in 2009 was $353,000. Is that correct?
RICHARDS: I don't have the figures with me. But …
CHAFFETZ: It was. Congratulations. In 2013, your compensation went up some $240,000. Your compensation, we're showing based on tax returns, is $590,000, correct?
RICHARDS: That's not my annual compensation. I — actually, my annual compensation is $520,000 a year. I believe there was a program that the board sort of put together for a three-year — I'm happy — again, I think we have been extremely forthcoming with all of our documents.
RICHARDS: I don't have the figures with me. But …
CHAFFETZ: It was. Congratulations. In 2013, your compensation went up some $240,000. Your compensation, we're showing based on tax returns, is $590,000, correct?
RICHARDS: That's not my annual compensation. I — actually, my annual compensation is $520,000 a year. I believe there was a program that the board sort of put together for a three-year — I'm happy — again, I think we have been extremely forthcoming with all of our documents.
No word on the millions, if not BILLIONS, of dollars Congress throws away every year. I'm not even counting all the effort they put into filling their campaign coffers when they should be doing their fucking jobs.
But it gets better.
QUOTE
And here's another between Rep. Mia Love (R-Utah) and Richards. Love was inquiring about Medicaid patients who use Planned Parenthood clinics:
LOVE: There is no reason why we can't provide those options elsewhere, where people can have their choice as to where they go.
LOVE: There is no reason why we can't provide those options elsewhere, where people can have their choice as to where they go.
Actually, Mia, they don't have a fucking choice because certain assholes place such stringent restrictions on abortions that they're blatantly trying to < legislate them out of existence >. Then you'll have to convince those "other places" to deal with the political and insurance baggage that comes along with it.
Posted by Malcolm on Oct. 01 2015,12:09
< PP building > set on fire.
Posted by GORDON on Oct. 01 2015,12:25
Oh no all those mamograms
Posted by Malcolm on Oct. 13 2015,10:12
< PP > proves they've got 1000 times the sense any of their opponents do. Someone crunched numbers and figured out paying the fees for the tissues is cheaper than fighting asshole state politicians in court forever.
Posted by Malcolm on Oct. 19 2015,10:27
< Texas says yes > to more illegal abortions, unplanned pregnancies, and STDs.
Posted by TPRJones on Oct. 20 2015,12:51
Sometimes Texas sucks. If it weren't for having the best BBQ in the country it wouldn't be worth being here.
Posted by Malcolm on Oct. 23 2015,11:03
< The GOP can't stop > shooting themselves in the foot over this issue.QUOTE
House Speaker John Boehner, R-Ohio, on Friday announced the eight Republicans who will sit on a special committee to investigate "the grisly practices of big abortion providers," according to a statement from his office.
Because the dozen or so investigations by red state AGs missed something.
QUOTE
The speaker notes that multiple House committees have already investigated and grilled leaders from Planned Parenthood, the women's health care and abortion provider, over a series of controversial and misleading videos aimed at taking down the organization. However, Boehner said, "We still don't have the full truth."
The new committee "will have the resources and the subpoena power to get to the bottom of these horrific practices, and build on our work to protect the sanctity of all human life," Boehner said.
The new committee "will have the resources and the subpoena power to get to the bottom of these horrific practices, and build on our work to protect the sanctity of all human life," Boehner said.
You're shitting me. Are you intentionally trying to pull your party down into the abyss?
Posted by Malcolm on Oct. 27 2015,10:22
< Another heavily edited > vid is released because these dudes can't apparently can't stop giving the center and left more ammo for their political guns.QUOTE
Dermish says in the video that she does not use the chemical digoxin, used to kill fetuses in the womb, before 20 weeks. She doesn’t say if she uses another chemical during the more than eight-minute, edited clip, and CMP asserts that means babies are delivered alive and killed outside of the womb. Dermish says she has used “ultrasound guidance” to manipulate fetuses for feet-first abortions in the video, a practice CMP describes as a “hallmark” of the illegal partial-birth abortion procedure.
CMP being, of course, the dudes who made this pathetic attempt at fame. You'll note they have precisely zero, count 'em ZERO, medical doctors on their board.
Posted by Malcolm on Oct. 28 2015,13:34
< US judge > bitchslaps the entire state of Alabama.QUOTE
U.S. District Judge Myron Thompson issued a preliminary injunction after Planned Parenthood challenged the state's move to terminate its contract to provide services under Medicaid, the federal and state healthcare program for the poor.
The judge wrote that Alabama had not provided a reason for terminating its agreement with the Planned Parenthood affiliate serving the region, as required under federal law. Planned Parenthood, which has clinics in Mobile and Birmingham, is an abortion provider.
The judge wrote that Alabama had not provided a reason for terminating its agreement with the Planned Parenthood affiliate serving the region, as required under federal law. Planned Parenthood, which has clinics in Mobile and Birmingham, is an abortion provider.
Eat a dick, Alabama.
Posted by Malcolm on Nov. 29 2015,06:34
< This > is why the PP folk got nervous when those bullshit vids got dropped. Fucking psychos like this come out of the woodwork. Could you say he would've gone off anyhow? Maybe. But just because you got a pile of dry powder doesn't mean you should spark the fucker.
Posted by GORDON on Nov. 29 2015,07:46
You know.... if you are on the Planned Parenthood marketing payroll, you are required to disclose that.
Posted by Malcolm on Nov. 29 2015,09:36
No marketing department in the world would hire me.
Posted by GORDON on Nov. 29 2015,12:08
(Malcolm @ Nov. 29 2015,09:34)
QUOTE
< This > is why the PP folk got nervous when those bullshit vids got dropped. Fucking psychos like this come out of the woodwork. Could you say he would've gone off anyhow? Maybe. But just because you got a pile of dry powder doesn't mean you should spark the fucker.
I will admit that "youtube videos caused it" if you will admit that the Sandy Hook grade school shootings happened because so many people on the internet complain about babies on airplanes and children in restaurants.
Posted by Malcolm on Nov. 29 2015,15:14
That kid shot up his school because someone didn't complain enough about him and his oblivious family.
Posted by GORDON on Nov. 29 2015,16:04
Ok then, I am not going to entertain the idea that the deep woods redneck psycho shot up a PP facility because of youtube videos.
Posted by Malcolm on Jan. 26 2016,10:16
That blue state which is an eternal bastion of liberal thought, Texas, has leveled felony charges against the Center for Medical Progress's director.QUOTE
Daleiden has admitted to putting together a fake company he dubbed Biomax Procurement Services. His group assumed aliases and claimed to provide fetal tissue to researchers.
The fake IDs used by Daleiden and Merritt, which look like California licenses, triggered the felony charge, Schaffer said.
...
Intent to cause harm is what elevated the possession of fake IDs to a more serious felony charge than, say, a 16-year-old trying to buy a six-pack would receive, Schaffer said. Under Texas law, the charge carries a penalty of two to 20 years in prison.
The fake IDs used by Daleiden and Merritt, which look like California licenses, triggered the felony charge, Schaffer said.
...
Intent to cause harm is what elevated the possession of fake IDs to a more serious felony charge than, say, a 16-year-old trying to buy a six-pack would receive, Schaffer said. Under Texas law, the charge carries a penalty of two to 20 years in prison.
As for PP, even Texas found...
QUOTE
The grand jury, meanwhile, cleared Planned Parenthood Gulf Coast of any wrongdoing.
Posted by TPRJones on Apr. 12 2016,16:35
It occurs to me that - on the bright side - the opposition to Planned Parenthood, birth control, abortions, and all of that is a self-correcting problem. The vast majority of children that are born because of the laws limiting access to abortions and birth control will be born to poor families, the poor being those least likely to be able to afford to overcome the resistance. Statistically the vast majority of them will be Democrats, so in about eighteen years when they start to vote in droves the Repubs will be driven out of office.Honestly it may be one of the best long-term Democrat recruiting policies the Republicans have ever enacted.
Posted by GORDON on Apr. 12 2016,16:51
It's great that a lot of people have decided the "when does life begin?" question is very black and white and there is an exact day when abortion becomes bad, but for a lot of people the issue isn't quite set in stone, and in their minds aren't willing to murder even though their side might lose an election somewhere down the line.
Posted by TPRJones on Apr. 12 2016,16:55
But even though they are uncertain they're perfectly happy forcing others to follow their own beliefs through code of law. Seems legit.EDIT: Really this comes from seeing people responding to welfare issues with "well don't have kids you can't afford!" I'm actually fine with that, but if it's some right-wing conservative saying it then I say when you take away all their access to birth control or abortion, what do hell you expect is going to happen?
Posted by GORDON on Apr. 12 2016,16:57
(TPRJones @ Apr. 12 2016,19:55)
QUOTE
But even though they are uncertain they're perfectly happy forcing others to follow their own beliefs through code of law. Seems legit.
Ok.
Posted by Malcolm on Apr. 12 2016,17:03
QUOTE
...and in their minds aren't willing to murder even though their side might lose an election somewhere down the line.
Except those people:
1) aren't the ones performing the "murder"
2) aren't the ones looking for a "hitman" to perform such an action
Wonder why I don't hear them bitching as loud that leaving young children unvaccinated is also murder. That one seems worse because abortions aren't contagious and death from an easily preventable disease is like an ultra-late term abortion. While we're at it, Christian Scientists are also killers, as is anyone that believes in holistic or homeopathic medicine. Guess we got to legislate against them, too.
Posted by GORDON on Apr. 12 2016,17:42
Just go ahead and say that I am a wacko nutjob because I think there might be a gray area, here, and I can see others points of view, too.
Posted by Malcolm on Apr. 12 2016,19:02
If you don't want one, fine. If you don't want your kid to get one, fine. Restricting it for others isn't something I'm liable to support without more proof than the "it's murder" side thinks.
Posted by GORDON on Apr. 12 2016,19:09
And you just can't see where they are coming from? Right or wrong, they see it as murder, and they see themselves as complicit with murder, as the citizens of the country allowing murder. You REALLY can't see where they are coming from?
Posted by TPRJones on Apr. 12 2016,20:08
I can. But however they feel about it the results will be more poor people and more welfare voters. I will accept "don't have kids you can't afford" and I will accept "abortion is murder and also no contraceptives for anyone*" but I will not accept both from the same person. They are contradictory. If they are going to face reality then someone who proclaims both stances must accept that they are choosing to condemn a certain number of unwanted children to be born into a life of homelessness and starvation.I guess if they are fine with that last point then ... well, then they don't seem like a very nice person. IMO.
* that second part I'm less willing to accept, but I'm including it for the sake of argument
Posted by GORDON on Apr. 12 2016,20:18
America's strategies to reduce the number of poor people makes no difference whatsoever with our open border policy. We have an unending, unhindered stream of poor people coming in 24 hours a day. I think until the borders are closed to economic refugees, saying PP is a good for the future of... reduced poor people.... is not a very relevant argument.
Posted by TPRJones on Apr. 12 2016,20:20
All because there is an external source doesn't mean willfully increasing those born here by poor citizens is a good idea. That's like refusing to put out your kitchen fire until your neighbor stops burning his house.
Posted by GORDON on Apr. 12 2016,20:27
Or it's like trying to drain the ocean with a teacup.I don't have a problem with abortion, though my "when does life begin" guess might be slightly more conservative than others. I suspect PP is shady, because I think almost everyone is shady. I see lots of people defending PP with sarcasm and bile and anger who also have no clue whether or not it is shady, but they have their opinions. And I don't think abortion should be subsidized. We all know my opinion about the federal funds "just go for the mammograms not the abortions" is a bullshit rationalization. I can understand why people would be pissed.
I don't need to watch a Python skit about Catholics to understand the issue.
Posted by TPRJones on Apr. 12 2016,20:36
And I think that's a perfectly fine stance as long as you will acknowledge that this means there will be a certain number of unwanted children born into a life of homelessness and starvation that would not have been born otherwise. Unless you are into providing more welfare to cover them, of course. But personally I'd rather decrease welfare and increase access to birth control and even early term abortions, because I don't like people so I lean towards having fewer of them around rather than more.
EDIT: Well, there is one other stance which is "poor people should not make bad decisions", but I don't think that's a particularly realistic approach. And making them have a child they didn't want isn't going to make that particular situation any better.
Posted by Alhazad on Apr. 12 2016,20:51
(TPRJones @ Apr. 12 2016,20:08)
QUOTE
I will accept "abortion is murder and also no contraceptives for anyone*"
* that second part I'm less willing to accept, but I'm including it for the sake of argument
* that second part I'm less willing to accept, but I'm including it for the sake of argument
Please don't. However flexible the line on where life begins, we can surely accept that it doesn't begin before the zygote is even formed.
Unless you believe that there are countless unborn souls up there in a heavenly sniper rifle, just waiting for God in a Master Chief costume to calculate the exact windage and timing to fire them into the zygote, and any form of contraception causes him to miss and the tiny soul to fly into Hell where it'll become a tortured mini marshmallow in Satan's hot chocolate of suffering.
But that would be silly. God never misses.
Posted by GORDON on Apr. 13 2016,04:55
I really don't think God needs to adjust for windage when He can just control the wind. Think about it.
Posted by Malcolm on Apr. 13 2016,10:53
QUOTE
Right or wrong, they see it as murder, and they see themselves as complicit with murder, as the citizens of the country allowing murder.
Then they can expand their crusade to other shit:
QUOTE
Wonder why I don't hear them bitching as loud that leaving young children unvaccinated is also murder. That one seems worse because abortions aren't contagious and death from an easily preventable disease is like an ultra-late term abortion. While we're at it, Christian Scientists are also killers, as is anyone that believes in holistic or homeopathic medicine.
If you're against murdering unwilling victims, then be consistent about it.
QUOTE
I suspect PP is shady, because I think almost everyone is shady.
That's not much a neg against them if you apply to everyone.
QUOTE
And I don't think abortion should be subsidized.
I'd rather pay partially for someone's abortion now rather than potentially pay for the welfare of two people or more later. If you can guarantee I don't have to do that second thing, I'll let the first slide.
QUOTE
I see lots of people defending PP with sarcasm and bile and anger who also have no clue whether or not it is shady, but they have their opinions.
Funny, I've seen the same behaviour from the other side with respect to defunding.
Posted by GORDON on Apr. 13 2016,14:52
(Malcolm @ Apr. 13 2016,13:53)
QUOTE
QUOTE
I see lots of people defending PP with sarcasm and bile and anger who also have no clue whether or not it is shady, but they have their opinions.
Funny, I've seen the same behaviour from the other side with respect to defunding.
So great, to make the decision let's just refer to the Constitution and see what it says about the government paying for abortions.
Posted by Malcolm on Apr. 13 2016,16:16
About as much as it says about the prez having a cabinet. The gov't has a vested interest for the same reason I just said.QUOTE
I'd rather pay partially for someone's abortion now rather than potentially pay for the welfare of two people or more later.
Posted by GORDON on Apr. 13 2016,16:37
Again, that logic doesn't hold water with our open border policy.
Posted by Malcolm on Apr. 13 2016,17:01
(GORDON @ Apr. 13 2016,18:37)
QUOTE
Again, that logic doesn't hold water with our open border policy.
Dudes coming across the border at least might be adults and thus able to do work, buy things, and pay taxes upon showing up.
Posted by GORDON on Apr. 13 2016,17:11
Just probably not. They're all poor and are bringing their poor kids and < we're lucky if they even stay to take care of their kids, themselves. >The "abortions are great for us because the economy" argument is undone by the open borders with the entire world sending us their poor people.
Posted by Malcolm on Apr. 13 2016,17:53
Sending us? Christ on a crutch? Really? Go ahead then. Build a wall and/or cut off immigration. Let's see how well that goes after the first few hundred thousand leak through.
Posted by GORDON on Apr. 13 2016,17:57
I have no idea what you are even saying. Take a deep breath before you fall over and die of apoplexy.