Thunderdome 2015 » Printable Version of Topic

Forum: Internet Links
Topic: Ariana Grande
started by: GORDON

Posted by GORDON on Jul. 08 2015,16:10

I don't know who she is, and I heard she said some stuff that is getting her bad press, but I don't care.

The nasty little cunt licked donuts in a store then put them back on a shelf to give someone else whatever nasty STDs she has.

< http://www.foxnews.com/enterta....-lovato >

QUOTE

The 22-year-old explained she was frustrated by "how freely we as Americans eat and consume things without giving any thought to the consequences that it has on our health." She admitted that she should have "known better in how [she] expressed [herself]," but seeing the doughnuts reminded her that the "United States has the highest child obesity rate in the world."

Yeah, like the consequence ingesting the spit of an entitled little bitch.

Posted by GORDON on Jul. 08 2015,16:58

Her Facebook page is getting trashed. WOnder how long that will last.

< https://www.facebook.com/arianagrande >

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 08 2015,17:01

QUOTE

I am EXTREMELY proud to be an American and I've always made it clear that I love my county (sic)

... yeah.

EDIT: Heh. Another Disney brat.

Posted by Alhazad on Jul. 08 2015,17:50

Oh shit, I thought she was a porn star.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 08 2015,18:48

(Alhazad @ Jul. 08 2015,19:50)

QUOTE

Oh shit, I thought she was a porn star.

Yeah, like I said.

Posted by Vince on Jul. 09 2015,07:23

To be fair, this country is going to hell. As evidenced by crap like this.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 09 2015,07:47

(Vince @ Jul. 09 2015,09:23)

QUOTE

To be fair, this country is going to hell. As evidenced by crap like this.

The Middle Ages would've blown your mind.

"Hey, Jim, what's your kid's name? He must be a couple years old by now."

"We're waiting another year to give him one. Already had a few die on us in under three years, and we decided not to waste the effort this time until he proves himself."

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 09 2015,08:31

Apparently things were much better when 9 out of 10 children died before age 5 and everyone else had their teeth all rot out and if they weren't randomly slaughtered by bandits or some asshole nobleman they could with luck have lived to the ripe old age of 45.

At least they never had to worry about some bitch licking a doughnut, because that's just the worst thing that humanity has ever had to deal with.

Posted by Vince on Jul. 09 2015,08:34

Now the donut shop is under investigation by the health department because they left the donuts out like that.

Insane.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 09 2015,08:39

(Vince @ Jul. 09 2015,10:34)

QUOTE

Now the donut shop is under investigation by the health department because they left the donuts out like that.

Insane.

Regardless of the origin of the saliva, they should have tossed it. Or eBay'd it.

Posted by GORDON on Jul. 09 2015,09:55

(TPRJones @ Jul. 09 2015,11:31)

QUOTE

At least they never had to worry about some bitch licking a doughnut, because that's just the worst thing that humanity has ever had to deal with.

People who aren't rich and famous get arrested for assault when they spit on people's food.

Posted by Leisher on Jul. 09 2015,10:49

She was supposed to do a live performance at the MLB All Star Game, yet pulled out for some unknown reason. Clearly, they told her that considering circumstances, it probably wouldn't go well.

QUOTE

The Middle Ages would've blown your mind.

QUOTE

Because someone says this country isn't in good shape in 2015 we immediately compare it Europe in the middle ages? You lost me on that one.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 09 2015,11:14

QUOTE

Because someone says this country isn't in good shape in 2015 we immediately compare it Europe in the middle ages? You lost me on that one.

Here's the line.

QUOTE

To be fair, this country is going to hell. As evidenced by crap like this.

If modern day is "going to hell," then the past must've been in a circle of hell located in Satan's own asshole. Either way, the arrow still points decidedly away from that as time goes on.

Posted by Leisher on Jul. 09 2015,11:48

(Malcolm @ Jul. 09 2015,14:14)

QUOTE

Because someone says this country isn't in good shape in 2015 we immediately compare it Europe in the middle ages? You lost me on that one.

Here's the line.

QUOTE

To be fair, this country is going to hell. As evidenced by crap like this.

If modern day is "going to hell," then the past must've been in a circle of hell located in Satan's own asshole. Either way, the arrow still points decidedly away from that as time goes on.

There are some who would argue it was worse prior to man...or better.

I don't think it's wrong to believe that things in this country are on a downward trend. I think there's a bit of overreaction to things, and that seems to be a generational trend, but I do think it could be argued that this country is on an overall downward trend rather than an upwards trend.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 09 2015,11:51

Sure, we're off the previous high of the last fifty or so years, but I still say 99% of the people who've ever lived would give their left nut to be alive right now.

Posted by Leisher on Jul. 09 2015,12:08

I don't think you can say that.

While you know history, you honestly don't know what your life would be like is less technologically advanced times. They certainly could not properly imagine what life is like now. I believe just as many would consider this hell on Earth as those who would love our advancements.

Is life easier? Yes, but is it better? That's up to each person.

As for the country, if I look at it like a business, yes it's downward trending despite the fact that we just gave a new benefits package to certain employees.

< BTW, it's VERY clear she was booted by MLB. >

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 09 2015,12:17

QUOTE

They certainly could not properly imagine what life is like now.

I can't either. But as time goes on, tech gets more interesting. It gets reset every now and again, but apart from those backslides, not only are we more advanced than we've every been, the rate of advancement is increasing.

QUOTE

Is life easier? Yes, but is it better? That's up to each person.

Everyone who disagrees can go back to boiling their water over an open flame to purify it.

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 09 2015,12:43

QUOTE

I don't think it's wrong to believe that things in this country are on a downward trend.

QUOTE

Sure, we're off the previous high of the last fifty or so years

I disagree vehemently with these statements. We don't have to go back to medieval Europe to find bad people doing bad things, < we've > < got > < a > < pretty > < good > < history > < of > < that > < ourselves > (note that all those things are things that have been getting better not worse ... except the cops one, I guess). There are many things wrong with the US right now, but sliding into a pit of hell isn't one of them. Sure there are still opinionated jackasses everywhere like there have always been. And with the internet now you can hear what more of them have to say. But all they do is talk talk talk and never get anything done so they can't really hurt you except to upset those with delicate feefees. They aren't going to lynch you or imprison you or beat your children. Things are - overall - better than they have ever been before.

QUOTE

People who aren't rich and famous get arrested for assault when they spit on people's food.

I am certainly not defending her actions. Sure, put her in jail if she doesn't pay for those donoughts she licked, that's fine by me. But I hardly think her actions are the mark of the impending end of civilization.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 09 2015,13:04

< Tim Robbins's mom > comes to Ariana's defense.

Posted by Leisher on Jul. 09 2015,13:27

QUOTE

Things are - overall - better than they have ever been before.

Counselor is stating opinion, not fact your honor.

You have to admit, that is purely opinion. Yes, you could argue all our technological and social advancements, but it's still a matter of opinion unless we were specifically saying "What period of human history is the best in terms of technology?"

QUOTE

There are many things wrong with the US right now, but sliding into a pit of hell isn't one of them. Sure there are still opinionated jackasses everywhere like there have always been. And with the internet now you can hear what more of them have to say. But all they do is talk talk talk and never get anything done so they can't really hurt you except to upset those with delicate feefees. They aren't going to lynch you or imprison you or beat your children.

I don't necessarily agree with you on this either.

Now understand, I'm not saying we're sliding into the pits of hell. However, I do think we're walking a dangerous line in certain areas that could lead to very bad things. Banning items because they hurt people's feelings isn't good. A porn star and gold digger being an idol of a generation of women probably isn't the best thing ever. The ridiculousness of political correctness is not exactly improving society. The MSM bias dictating elections. Cops being armed like armies. The war on drugs. Illegal immigrants being treated as voters instead of criminals draining our economy. Etc. The list goes on.

If this were a business our stock would be dropping. I'm not saying we're going out of business or the trend can't change, but despite improvements in MANY areas and our quality of life I'd argue we're downward trending.

YAY gay people can get married and we're thisclose to a cure for CF.

Meanwhile in San Francisco an illegal immigrant who has been deported 5 fucking times murders a woman in cold blood and then gets released by the sheriff's department because SF is a Sanctuary City. The south is spending time banning a historical item because... Obamacare is taking good healthcare away from working people to ensure non-working people get it. Etc.

We have GREAT things and bad things.

Do I think we'll get through it all fine? Yes. However, that still doesn't make my opinion wrong. Our stock, at this moment in history, would probably be on more of a downward trend than upward.

But this is all opinion and we could argue it forever with neither side being right nor wrong.

Posted by Leisher on Jul. 09 2015,13:29

P.S. Good for Rob Lowe.

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 09 2015,13:43

(Leisher @ Jul. 09 2015,15:27)

QUOTE

According to all the statistics I linked you to, no, this is fact. If you measure the quality of civilization in terms of how it limits the prevalence of casual violence on the populous (and subtopics like racism, child abuse, spousal abuse, rape, etc) then this is demonstrably the best things have ever been. And I think not getting randomly killed or violently beaten is a reasonable indicator to use, in the sense that any civilization where the inverse is true is not particularly civilized.

I will agree that there are other things that are also important for a truly great civilization, but limiting violence and murder is an important first hurdle that we're still not quite past yet but have been getting better at.

QUOTE

Banning items because they hurt people's feelings isn't good. A porn star and gold digger being an idol of a generation of women probably isn't the best thing ever. The ridiculousness of political correctness is not exactly improving society. The MSM bias dictating elections. Cops being armed like armies. The war on drugs. Illegal immigrants being treated as voters instead of criminals draining our economy. Etc. The list goes on.

First I did say we do have many problems. But I think your priorities are a bit messed up. You seem to put too much weight on what people say and very little importance on what they do. Who gives a fuck if people are whining about PC stuff? Just ignore them, they aren't going to actually kill you over it. If the MSM had that much control there wouldn't be a Republican left in Congress so clearly that's not true. No one has actually made a law against the confederate flag yet, and if they did it would get overturned as unconstitutional. The list goes on.

You are right about cops and the drug war. That's part of the stuff we need to still work on. But neither of these problems is part of some new problem; we've had a drug war for many decades now and there have always been bad cops. The difference is now thanks to the internet we can find out about them and start to fix that problem instead of it getting swept under the rug.

The bottom line is man up and stop getting upset about what assholes say. They're assholes, saying stupid shit is what they do. It's what they've done for all of time, just before the internet you didn't have the opportunity to hear them unless they were famous enough to be on TV. The idiocy is not new just more visible. Stop looking at it if it bothers you that much.

Me I think it's perfectly reasonable to measure the quality of civilization based on what people do instead of what they say. And by those measures we are still going up.

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 09 2015,13:48

And before you say something like "when I was a kid we could play outside without fear of being abducted" statistics clearly show that the trend of parents worrying about that is total bullshit. Abductions of children are at an all time low. Let them play outside and don't be a spastic worrying ass about it. (EDIT: Not calling you an ass, this in reference to those parents that act like asses. Just thought this might have come off as a personal attack and wanted to clarify)

But people react with their gut instead of their brains, and now thanks to amber alerts we all know when a child has been abducted. It doesn't matter that it's getting more rare, the fact that we can now see the few that still happen when we couldn't before - except when buying milk - makes people panic and believe it happens more often. When it absolutely does not.

EDIT: Oh, and as for modern role models the old ones weren't any good either. Like I pointed out in the Alamo thread, Sam Houston was a drunkard and David Crockett was all show and no action, but people still looked up to them. History has whitewashed the heroes of yesteryear, but most of them weren't any better than what we have to work with today. Again it comes down to information; the problem isn't that heroes are worse, it's that we know more about them than people did in the past.

Posted by TheCatt on Jul. 09 2015,14:15

The recent doughnut revolution with great locally made fresh doughnuts everywhere pretty much proves that this is the best of times.

Posted by Vince on Jul. 09 2015,15:00

There is a lot that's better. There's a lot that's trending downwards. We have a culture priding itself on handling diversity with gays and minorities and women and everything else along those lines, but handling a little diversity like Facebook being down and people have a meltdown. How would they do if things really got hard? All the things that are better over the last 50 years are also making us soft. Culture has advanced and fallen back throughout time. I think this next time it starts to get shaky, we're in trouble. We no longer have a good foundation.

In Logan's Run, society was pretty awesome by every standard TPR had mentioned. But the things that made us a species worth preserving was gone.

Posted by TheCatt on Jul. 09 2015,15:09

Hurricanes have shown me that when real adversity comes, people actually respond. Granted, I haven't seen one in a while, but I think people are fundamentally fine.

The crap you are exposed to is what has changed. People were always whiny little bitches, and whining about Facebook used to be whining about Myspace, or dial-up, or their Walkman, or McDonalds getting your order wrong or whatever. You see more edge cases than you used to. Instead of seeing a few or few hundred people in a day, you can see millions, because someone can forward you some bullshit someone said on the internet at lightspeed.

Posted by Alhazad on Jul. 09 2015,15:17

(TheCatt @ Jul. 09 2015,15:09)

QUOTE

Precisely this.

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 09 2015,15:20

QUOTE

In Logan's Run, society was pretty awesome by every standard TPR had mentioned.

Not really. I mean there's still some raping going on and almost everyone gets murdered at age 30, so by those standards Logan's Run was not awesome. It would quite a bit worse than what we have now.

But if we ever do mostly conquer rape and violence and all of that then I would say other priorities start to become more important, like personal freedoms and how the society values advancement and creativity and basic human decency. Those things have value already, of course, and I'd say they're probably also at an all-time high, but I still think not being murdered or raped is more important than everyone being generally polite.

Do people freak out about stupid shit, like Facebook going down? Sure. People have always freaked out about stupid shit, though, so again this is not new. And all in all I'd rather they were freaking out about Facebook being down than freaking out because some black guy married a white girl. But even more importantly that comes back to people saying things rather than people doing things. Why do you care so much what people are saying? Ignore them, they are just stupid people and their words have no value.

Finally are we too soft if things get so bad that we have to live off the land to survive? Maybe, but it doesn't matter. The real problem there is that going back to the old ways would mean we could only support a tiny fraction of our population anyway. Even if we were all hard as nails a good 90% of us would die just because there's no way to support our large population with hunting & gathering, or even basic agriculture. Hell you should be happy that so many people are getting soft because it means if you aren't soft you have a better chance of being in the 10% that might survive.

Posted by Alhazad on Jul. 09 2015,16:13

(TPRJones @ Jul. 09 2015,15:20)

QUOTE

Ignore them, they are just stupid people and their words have no value.

Seriously?

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 09 2015,16:21

QUOTE

Hurricanes have shown me that when real adversity comes, people actually respond.

When real adversity comes, pussies fold. Bad-asses respond. Those aren't 0/1 terms, it's a continuous spectrum. Fortunately, being a pussy means you can also be bullied into being useful. One bad-ass can intimidate 100 pussies into doing work. Unfortunately, not every bad-ass is benign. If your society has problems on either front, that hurricane will bury you.

If people responded properly to every crisis, the LA riots wouldn't have happened. Like looters are harder to combat than nature?

QUOTE

I truly don't know what's gonna happen when the lights go out, Carolyn, but I do know, once the dying starts, this little psycho fuck family of ours is gonna rip itself apart.

QUOTE

(TPRJones @ Jul. 09 2015,15:20)

QUOTE

Ignore them, they are just stupid people and their words have no value.

Seriously?

Stupid people have as much power as their numbers allow and I have to deal with them. And they got a fuck-ton-load of numbers, I admit. On one hand, I'd love to be able to ignore their opinions. On the other hand, those opinions populate Congress and the White House.

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 09 2015,16:52

(Malcolm @ Jul. 09 2015,18:21)

QUOTE

Fortunately on most issues there's as many stupid people on one side as on the other, so they mostly balance out and become useless. And so they can mostly be safely ignored. Or you could get all worked up about what they are saying, but then that can quickly lead to you becoming equally stupid. I prefer the former.

Admittedly sometimes the balance breaks and we get the ACA or the TSA. But trying to stop the stupid is about as useful as yelling at a hurricane.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 09 2015,17:01

QUOTE

But trying to stop the stupid is about as useful as yelling at a hurricane.

Nah. They need an opposing force since we've decided natural selection is too cruel. I can stand idle against them no more than Chuck Heston can let go of his guns. I don't want to, I'd rather relax and not have to. If you could ignore the idiocy as much as you claim, your flip-off rate in traffic would be less than what you say.

QUOTE

And so they can mostly be safely ignored.

Important word emphasized.

QUOTE

Admittedly sometimes the balance breaks and we get the ACA or the TSA.

Multi-billion dollar mistakes that indirectly cost people lives by sucking up and wasting cash that might otherwise be spent on more worthy endeavours.

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 09 2015,17:37

QUOTE

If you could ignore the idiocy as much as you claim, your flip-off rate in traffic would be less than what you say.

Online idiocy I can generally ignore, but idiocy in person must be properly punctuated. Most people seem to approach that the other way around, maybe I'm just miswired.

QUOTE

Multi-billion dollar mistakes that indirectly cost people lives by sucking up and wasting cash that might otherwise be spent on more worthy endeavours.

Agreed. But even so that also is not new. We've been blowing money on stupid stuff since forever. The cost is bigger than before, but that's just inflation. As a percentage of GDP I'd bet the stupid has been pretty constant for the last 100 years.

EDIT: And the pyramids are proof enough that stupid has been a common government expense for quite some time.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 09 2015,17:39

You've got a bit of a quantum attitude with it. "At the polls" is in person enough for me. Online, hah, I don't give a fuck. I'm not talking quite face-to-face, either, though.

QUOTE

As a percentage of GDP I'd bet the stupid has been pretty constant for the last 100 years.

I just can't believe that. I saw a noticeable uptick after WWII. I think it's ramping up. I think it's stupidity's natural tendency to climb until some critical mass is reached. More stable things require more stupidity to crack. Here's my theory on that.

The stupids/pussies have an ability to be more public, published, vocal, and visible than ever before. I hate to keep being a tool quoting lyrics, but damned if they don't sum up volumes of my thoughts:

QUOTE

But real gangsta-ass niggas don't flex much
Cuz real gangsta-ass niggas know they got em

Bad-asses, particularly good ones, aren't always inclined to be as animated and out there. As I said, it's not a 0/1 classification. The substrata that worries me is the militant stupids/pussies. Brutal enough to prefer resolution by force, but puerile enough be completely misguided. They compete with bad-asses for recruitment of the lesser stupids/pussies.

Like with the Confed flag fight.
Like with equal treatment of LGBT (damn that's a unharmonic acronym, they need something better) rights and marriages.
Like with the gun control issue.
Like with the Greek debt dealie.
Like with all the bullshit climate talk.

We very narrowly avoided WWIII on more than a few occasions in the past sixty years. One day, that penny is going to come up bad. Hell, might not even be a "world war." But it'll be something just as destructive.

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 09 2015,17:42

QUOTE

"At the polls" is in person enough for me.

As long as the polls have a party ticket voting option, stupid is going to be a big part of the process.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 09 2015,18:00

(TPRJones @ Jul. 09 2015,19:42)

QUOTE

"At the polls" is in person enough for me.

As long as the polls have a party ticket voting option, stupid is going to be a big part of the process.

The prolonged existence of the two completely shitty political choices we have is only further proof of my hypothesis.

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 09 2015,18:11

And the fact that it's been going on for so long yet we still seem to be muddling through as well - or better - than we ever did is proof of mine.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 09 2015,18:29

(TPRJones @ Jul. 09 2015,20:11)

QUOTE

And the fact that it's been going on for so long yet we still seem to be muddling through as well - or better - than we ever did is proof of mine.

We've only had the ability to outright blow the shit out of everything for less than 100 years. Tech is catching up. I can only imagine what would have happened if Richard the Lion-Hearted and Saladin had nukes.

Posted by Vince on Jul. 09 2015,18:32

It's really hard to quantify, but I am more in line with Leisher. We are losing something. Lincoln was called "Honest Abe". Washington had the story of the cherry tree. And while that story itself was made up, the man's virtue was real (which spawned the story). Today what we get is, "well everyone lies about sex".

Hundreds of years ago, 300 Spartans marched to certain death to engage the Persians in battle. Alll knew it was hopeless, but they fought and became legends. Today a woman a woman gets brain cancer and decides it's better to take her own life with an overdose of drugs and we label a quitter as brave and some sort of hero. An actual American hero, Chris Kyle is slammed as an Islamophobe. Our priorities are getting quite fucked. When the shit really hits it, will we even still recognize the values needed to lead? We haven't demonstrated it in some number of elections, so I have my doubts.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 09 2015,18:36

QUOTE

Hundreds of years ago, 300 Spartans marched to certain death to engage the Persians in battle.

Bullshit. That was more or less, allegedly, because the Spartan king ordered the rest of the Greeks to beat it the fuck back to Athens while they held off the enemy. A couple city-states not under his control refused his command. The dudes that organized the evacuation of Athens played just as big a part as the ones that took arrows to the face.

QUOTE

The contingent of 700 Thespians, led by their general Demophilus, refused to leave with the other Greeks and committed themselves to the fight. Also present were the 400 Thebans, and probably the helots that had accompanied the Spartans.

700 Thespians, 400 Thebans, 300 Spartans, and their helot slaves, which outnumbered them by at least an order of magnitude. The Spartans contributed the least amount of troops. Probably the largest total volume of testicles, though.

Posted by TheCatt on Jul. 09 2015,18:56

(Vince @ Jul. 09 2015,21:32)

QUOTE

Familiarity breeds contempt.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 09 2015,18:59

(TheCatt @ Jul. 09 2015,20:56)

QUOTE

(Vince @ Jul. 09 2015,21:32)

QUOTE

Familiarity breeds contempt.

I'll kind of echo that with, "You should never meet your heroes." I bet Adams was extremely pissed Washington got overall command instead of him. You'd find no end of contemporaries that thought Lincoln was dick of the first order.

QUOTE

You know there's some old Indian guy in a bar somewhere going, "I knew Gandhi. He was a prick."

- Robin Williams

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 09 2015,19:06

(Vince @ Jul. 09 2015,20:32)

QUOTE

Lincoln was called "Honest Abe". Washington had the story of the cherry tree.

Sure.

But Honest Abe took many actions in his Presidency that completely violated the Constitution and was essentially a dictator for a span of time. He did it for what he thought was a worthy cause - he was ultimately a good man - but the ends don't justify the means. Admiring Lincoln as a President is on par with admiring Tom Brady as a quarterback; they both won by cheating. Admittedly preserving the union is a loftier goal than winning a superbowl, but the principle is the same.

There's some evidence that hints that George may have cheated on Martha quite a few times, and even fathered some illegitimate children. That evidence is slim and could certainly be completely untrue. But still it's possible he was no saint either.

QUOTE

Today what we get is, "well everyone lies about sex".

That's the same thing that's been true since forever. Have you ever looked at the evidence on how often Presidents have been screwing around? Clinton was not the first. Neither was Kennedy. Cleveland had an illegitimate kid. Harding had a long-standing affair while in office. For nearly as long as there's been a White House there's been Presidents lying about sex.

The difference isn't that people are acting worse than before. The difference is that the information about what people are doing is more readily available. Nothing is new under the sun, but the sun now shines more readily into the dark corners that used to be hidden.

Posted by Vince on Jul. 09 2015,19:31

(TPRJones @ Jul. 09 2015,21:06)

QUOTE

The difference isn't that people are acting worse than before. The difference is that the information about what people are doing is more readily available. Nothing is new under the sun, but the sun now shines more readily into the dark corners that used to be hidden.

But yes, the people are acting worse and you attitude about Washington is exactly what I am talking about. You even stated that the evidence of his alleged affairs was thin, but you threw it out there anyway to diminish him. Because we can no longer abide living in the shadows of giants. Because we have become very small, and we're reminded of that when we look up and see them.

There was a reason that the amendment restricting the President to two terms wasn't needed for over 100 years in this country. It's because politicians had enough respect for the memory of Washington than none even attempted a third term (until Teddy Roosevelt, the first prog President). Politicians would say to each other, "Do you think you're better than Washington?" when someone spoke of a third term. It was just bad form. I realize they were all human, but they were great men in spite of that. We can longer allow greatness to stand. We can no longer strive for something better than we are. God help you if you actually show some evidence of it. The crowd will turn you over to Pilot.

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 09 2015,19:43

QUOTE

You even stated that the evidence of his alleged affairs was thin, but you threw it out there anyway to diminish him.

No, I throw it out there as evidence that perhaps he wasn't as pure as the driven snow. Not to diminish him but to point out that your blind faith in the purity of the heroes of the past is probably ill-founded.

You admittedly did make that hard by picking a particularly good one. It's just as possible that he was a saint. And if he was so much the better, I have no need to believe the worst of him. But even then we've now identified one good person from history; I can find you one good person today and we'll still be back to people being the same as they ever were.

QUOTE

Because we can no longer abide living in the shadows of giants.

How is my pointing out the sins of historical figures any more or less worse than your pointing out the sins of modern figures? Just because they're dead? When Clinton dies will you suddenly no longer think of him as a philanderer?

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 09 2015,19:44

QUOTE

We can longer allow greatness to stand.

Even if the greatness was artificial?

Posted by Leisher on Jul. 09 2015,22:49

I saw your walls of text TPR and I'm too tired to properly respond at the moment, and I'm not really sure what's aimed at me, and what's not. However, it doesn't seem like I'm making my point clear or if you're not getting it or perhaps I'm reading your responses wrong. I don't know.

For example:

QUOTE

When compared to my statement, you're very much incorrect. It's not a fact. Why? Because nothing from my statement suggested the measurements that you listed. That's your list, not mine. And what are you comparing it to? I'm doing a stock exchange thing with other countries, you're talking about history. I think we're having two different debates, and thus, my paragraph above.

So I'll just say I'm not idealizing anyone from the past or the past. I'm simply saying that if our country was a stock, we'd currently be on a downward trend.

< Stats to back my point up. >

We're still one of the best countries on the planet, but we definitely have some improvements to make.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 10 2015,07:29

QUOTE

I'm simply saying that if our country was a stock, we'd currently be on a downward trend.

In terms of economic competence, I'd agree.

Posted by Vince on Jul. 10 2015,07:46

(TPRJones @ Jul. 09 2015,21:43)

QUOTE

I would say the difference is that focusing on the faults of heroes past is done in an effort to diminish their virtues. Most of the "leaders" today have no readily apparent virtues. And when we have someone that displays virtue, we try to tear them down. Clintons most apparent attribute is his being a philanderer with no equally virtuous traits.

I will offer up the exception of Taylor Swift. Don't like her music and I think she's pretty far to the left, but she seems to be a really charitable person. She has an amount of modesty that she's even sometimes slammed for. But for the most part, she hasn't been dismantled in the press. And it's rare that today's culture allows virtue to stand unchallenged.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 10 2015,07:54

QUOTE

Clintons most apparent attribute is his being a philanderer with no equally virtuous traits.

1) What people do in their marriages/relationships isn't my concern unless the law is broken. Adultery is not illegal.
2) No virtuous traits? What makes one virtuous? If I'm charitable with my guns to rebels in various third-world countries and give them price breaks, am I not being virtuous to them in spite of the murder they commit?

Posted by Alhazad on Jul. 10 2015,22:28

(Malcolm @ Jul. 10 2015,07:54)

QUOTE

If I'm charitable with my guns to rebels in various third-world countries and give them price breaks, am I not being virtuous to them in spite of the murder they commit?

No, you're being charitable to them.

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 11 2015,08:18

QUOTE

When compared to my statement, you're very much incorrect. It's not a fact. Why? Because nothing from my statement suggested the measurements that you listed.

I guess what I'm saying is the things you are focusing on are entirely misguided as a measurement of how we are doing as a civilization when there are other more important factors still in play.

This conversation started when it was stated that we are on a downward trend and things are falling apart, that we have better technology now but in the past people were better off because everything was more idyllic. There seems to be a tendency for some people to think of the past as some wonderful place where everyone was excellent to each other and this seemed to be one of those conversations. So I think it's reasonable to compare now to the past and point out that things are better now than they have ever been in ways that are clearly measurable and demonstrable.

Is that not in fact what was being stated?

QUOTE

I'm simply saying that if our country was a stock, we'd currently be on a downward trend ... We're still one of the best countries on the planet, but we definitely have some improvements to make.

Ah, well if the matter is that some countries have been improving at a faster rate than we have in the last few decades, then yes I would agree with you. The rest of the world still had - and still has - a lot of work to do to become a better place than it was. But I do not agree that we are getting worse ourselves, though. The rising tide of civilization is still lifting all boats, regardless of how fast they are rising in relation to each other.

QUOTE

Clintons most apparent attribute is his being a philanderer with no equally virtuous traits.

Much as I disliked him - and hated his politics - I'd have to disagree. He did a lot of good while in office. But the point wasn't to say he was a great man, just point out that our flaws don't disappear from history after we're dead.

The fact that we're talking about politicians makes it harder. There are - and have never been - very many good politicians. It seems that only after years of being in the history books can you find politicians who's sins have been washed away enough for them to be held up as saintly men, and only if you don't dig too deep.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 11 2015,09:18

(Alhazad @ Jul. 11 2015,00:28)

QUOTE

(Malcolm @ Jul. 10 2015,07:54)

QUOTE

If I'm charitable with my guns to rebels in various third-world countries and give them price breaks, am I not being virtuous to them in spite of the murder they commit?

No, you're being charitable to them.

Apparently, charity is a virtue and it's always good.

Posted by Vince on Jul. 11 2015,09:50

(TPRJones @ Jul. 11 2015,10:18)

QUOTE

I didn't say that good things didn't happen while he was in office, I said it was hard to find a virtuous trait which he posses.

And for me, the problem isn't that the society and culture we're in right now is crap. It isn't. As you've pointed out, a lot of things are better than ever. My problem is that we don't have heroes of virtue any more. We don't hold people up and strive to be more like them. In the long run it may not matter, but I can't but think a culture of expecting poor behavior because "everyone does it" will take it's toll within a couple of generations.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 11 2015,10:43

QUOTE

We don't hold people up and strive to be more like them.

Good. I'm not those other people. I'm me.

QUOTE

In the long run it may not matter, but I can't but think a culture of expecting poor behavior because "everyone does it" will take it's toll within a couple of generations.

Don't throw people up on pedestals. Everyone is mortal and fallible. I'll refer to Penn and Teller's Bullshit, again. Season 3, ep 5, the one about Mother Teresa, Gandhi, and the Dalai Lama.

Posted by GORDON on Jul. 13 2015,21:31

She is not a horrible person, she just really, REALLY hates childhood obesity.

< http://thefederalist.com/2015....are-you >

Posted by Alhazad on Jul. 13 2015,22:16

(Malcolm @ Jul. 11 2015,10:43)

QUOTE

Don't throw people up on pedestals. Everyone is mortal and fallible. I'll refer to Penn and Teller's Bullshit, again. Season 3, ep 5, the one about Mother Teresa, Gandhi, and the Dalai Lama.

A particularly good example; even Penn and Teller demonstrate fallibility in it by including their unfunny Candid Camera dog shit even though it adds nothing to the argument.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 14 2015,07:28

(Alhazad @ Jul. 14 2015,00:16)

QUOTE

(Malcolm @ Jul. 11 2015,10:43)

QUOTE

Don't throw people up on pedestals. Everyone is mortal and fallible. I'll refer to Penn and Teller's Bullshit, again. Season 3, ep 5, the one about Mother Teresa, Gandhi, and the Dalai Lama.

A particularly good example; even Penn and Teller demonstrate fallibility in it by including their unfunny Candid Camera dog shit even though it adds nothing to the argument.

They admitted they completely fucked the secondhand smoking episode.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 14 2015,10:23

< Owner pressing charges >. She's also banned for life.

Posted by Vince on Jul. 14 2015,12:05

(Alhazad @ Jul. 14 2015,00:16)

QUOTE

(Malcolm @ Jul. 11 2015,10:43)

QUOTE

Don't throw people up on pedestals. Everyone is mortal and fallible. I'll refer to Penn and Teller's Bullshit, again. Season 3, ep 5, the one about Mother Teresa, Gandhi, and the Dalai Lama.

A particularly good example; even Penn and Teller demonstrate fallibility in it by including their unfunny Candid Camera dog shit even though it adds nothing to the argument.

I think it's human nature to have people that are admired. We can continue on the current course and tear down decent people and continue to idolize the Kardashians and Kanye and Miley, or we can shoot higher. Up to us.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 14 2015,12:22

QUOTE

We can continue on the current course and tear down decent people and continue to idolize the Kardashians and Kanye and Miley, or we can shoot higher.

Idolize might be a bit strong. I don't idolize a sideshow; I watch it for entertainment.

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 14 2015,13:00

QUOTE

I think it's human nature to have people that are admired.

I suspect this is learned behaviour rather than ingrained.

But even so, isn't it better to look up to someone that has nothing about them that can be torn down? If someone is so easily besmirched then they probably weren't worth idolizing.

Posted by GORDON on Jul. 14 2015,14:30

Everyone has to learn morality from somewhere. If you aren't getting it from a church, hopefully you are learning it from family... someone who might genuinely give a crap about you beyond what you can do for them. After that, we look up to those we perceive as stronger... in the past, that meant "great" people, thinkers of thoughts, but more often doers of deeds. If we tear down everyone perceived as worthy of emulation, who teaches us what to strive for? The social justice warriors?

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 14 2015,14:38

Okay, but that still doesn't address my final question. If someone could be so easily torn down then how were they worth emulating?

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 14 2015,14:45

(GORDON @ Jul. 14 2015,16:30)

QUOTE

Everyone has to learn morality from somewhere. ... If we tear down everyone perceived as worthy of emulation, who teaches us what to strive for? The social justice warriors?

I've omitted the problematic parts. But here they are, separate from the rest of the statement.

QUOTE

If you aren't getting it from a church, hopefully you are learning it from family

A church has little, if any, room to speak on morality. It almost doesn't even matter what religion it is, either. Religion is used as a social control. While I don't disagree there are spiritual aspects, it ascribes far, far too much power to mortal human beings who've been "divinely" inspired or chosen. It doesn't matter what particulars fill in that mad lib, I'm not having any of it pollute my sense of ethics. If a god or gods want to inspire some worship, grow some 'nads, cowboy up, and hang out with the little folk again instead of sending us crappy imitators and greedy false douchebags.

The fact I've seen decent people emerge from shitty gene pools also puts your second item into question.

QUOTE

After that, we look up to those we perceive as stronger... in the past, that meant "great" people, thinkers of thoughts, but more often doers of deeds.

There are people who were "great" at something. George Washington was a great leader of men, but one of the worst military generals in history. He helped start the Seven Years War because of his itchy trigger finger. It doesn't matter what great man you can find, he's still a man with plenty of flaws. If you want perfect role models, go read a book or watch a movie.

The ultimate source of your behaviour is you. Your morality is what you can wake up to in a mirror the next day without guilt, shame, or regret. It doesn't matter how much the outside world tries to pound it into you. You also can't predict whatever tiny thing might avalanche into a once-in-a-lifetime learning experience for you because something "clicks" with your empathy.

Posted by Alhazad on Jul. 14 2015,14:59

(TPRJones @ Jul. 14 2015,14:38)

QUOTE

Okay, but that still doesn't address my final question. If someone could be so easily torn down then how were they worth emulating?

I feel like you're only playing devil's advocate at this point.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 14 2015,15:10

(TPRJones @ Jul. 14 2015,16:38)

QUOTE

Okay, but that still doesn't address my final question. If someone could be so easily torn down then how were they worth emulating?

Eh, what "tears someone down" in one dude's eyes makes him a hero in another's and doesn't mean dick to a third pair. Everyone's got a weak point you can hammer on, but it doesn't take away from their accomplishments in other areas.

< This dude > was one of the smartest motherfuckers that ever lived and is included in any serious list of such. Period. He also believed you could logically reason out there's < an afterlife and divine beings > and was so paranoid towards the end of his life that he refused to eat food unless his wife prepared it for him. He died of malnutrition when she was hospitalized. He's also the dude who nearly didn't get naturalized when he examined the Constitution a little too closely.

QUOTE

On December 5, 1947, Einstein and Morgenstern accompanied Gödel to his U.S. citizenship exam, where they acted as witnesses. Gödel had confided in them that he had discovered an inconsistency in the U.S. Constitution that would allow the U.S. to become a dictatorship. Einstein and Morgenstern were concerned that their friend's unpredictable behavior might jeopardize his application.

He was batshit insane in many ways. He was unspeakably brilliant in many others. Maybe they complement each other or balance out, or maybe they just are. He is still a dude worthy of emulation and admiration.

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 14 2015,17:27

(Alhazad @ Jul. 14 2015,16:59)

QUOTE

I feel like you're only playing devil's advocate at this point.

While this is frequently the case, I'm really not this time. I still don't accept the premises but was curious about this point. Malcolm had a good answer, although it does raise questions about the relevance of the "we tear everyone down" issue in that the very meaning of that is entirely subjective.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 14 2015,17:45

< One man's tear down > is another's revelation of truth.

Posted by GORDON on Jul. 14 2015,17:56

(TPRJones @ Jul. 14 2015,20:27)

QUOTE

(Alhazad @ Jul. 14 2015,16:59)

QUOTE

I feel like you're only playing devil's advocate at this point.

I think an underlying concern is that when a fascism takes over a country, one of the things they want to do is erase the heroes from the collective consciousness. They don't fit the proper narrative.

There's an argument to be made that this is happening now.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 14 2015,18:52

What heroes are being erased? We've been doing that < forever >. Without Ben Arnold, we probably lose the < pivotal battle of the Revolutionary War >. Ben was pissed because < retards like this > got more props than he did. Ben's wife was a princess and had him whipped, so he sold out to the highest bidder when he figured the retards that sat in their tents like pussies had a higher value than real soldiers who loaded their testicles into cannons, shot themselves in the middle of British regiments, and bludgeoned them to death with their fifty pound cocks*. The Continental Army blew Arnold off and kept overall command with the prick that ended up trying to stage the < first military coup > in our country's history.

* may not have happened

It is the way of the world; old things go away, new ones replace them. It's not some 1984esque conspiracy.

Posted by Vince on Jul. 15 2015,10:33

(TPRJones @ Jul. 14 2015,15:00)

QUOTE

I think it's human nature to have people that are admired.

I'd suggest it isn't a learned behavior because every culture across the world does it and has done it for as long as they have a historical record.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 15 2015,10:50

(Vince @ Jul. 15 2015,12:33)

QUOTE

(TPRJones @ Jul. 14 2015,15:00)

QUOTE

I think it's human nature to have people that are admired.

I'd suggest it isn't a learned behavior because every culture across the world does it and has done it for as long as they have a historical record.

The culture might try to promote out the hero. Veneration of the hero (not the same as the hero's traits) is an individual, personal thing which is borne out by the fact that everyone has a different set of them. A desire to possess traits that one observes isn't cultural nor does it requires you to like the person that has them. I'm kind of stepping on < this guy's > toes, since this is really his bag.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 15 2015,12:36

QUOTE

If you want perfect role models, go read a book or watch a movie.

< Here's someone bitching > Harper Lee's second novel has tarnished the sterling bulwark of moral righteousness that is (was) Atticus Finch.

Posted by Alhazad on Jul. 15 2015,14:37

(Malcolm @ Jul. 15 2015,12:36)

QUOTE

< Here's someone bitching > Harper Lee's second novel has tarnished the sterling bulwark of moral righteousness that is (was) Atticus Finch.

Uh...

QUOTE

I’m pleased and not a little surprised to be able to report, however, that for all the controversy [...] "Go Set a Watchman” is, in fact, a complete book. And if it’s a highly uneven one, it’s still worth reading at a moment when we’re grappling yet again with [...] the idea that good people can do poisonous things.

QUOTE

If finding that he’s not what we needed him to be disconcerts some readers, that doesn’t mean, as NPR’s Maureen Corrigan suggested, that “This Atticus is different in kind, not just degree: He’s like Ahab turned into a whale lover or Holden Caulfield a phony.”

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 16 2015,10:16

Tearing down more historical figures...

QUOTE

Lincoln did not believe slavery was morally wrong, nor did he think slaves, of African-Americans in general, should be considered "equal" to whites. And the clincher: he really freed the slaves because the Union needed more soldiers.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 18 2015,11:04

< British get pissed > when someone finds footage Elizabeth II doing something socially acceptable until about 1939.