Topic: Ferguson, MO Details
started by: TheCatt
Posted by TheCatt on Aug. 18 2014,16:12
< Story >QUOTE
The Ferguson, Missouri, police officer who killed Michael Brown says the teenager rushed at him full speed in the moments before the shooting, according to an account phoned in to a radio station and confirmed by a source with detailed knowledge of the investigation.
Meanwhile, a spokesman for the St. Louis County prosecuting attorney said Monday that evidence in the shooting death could be presented to a grand jury as early as Wednesday.
According to the account on St. Louis radio station KFTK, phoned in by a woman who identified herself as "Josie," the altercation on August 9 began after Officer Darren Wilson rolled down his window to tell Brown and a friend to stop walking in the street.
When Wilson tried to get out of his cruiser, Brown first tried to push the officer back into the car, then punched him in the face and grabbed for his gun before breaking free after the gun went off once, the caller said.
Wilson pursued Brown and his friend, ordering them to freeze, according to the account. When they turned around, Brown began taunting Wilson, saying he would not arrest them, then ran at the officer at full speed, the caller said.
Wilson then began shooting. The final shot was to Brown's forehead, and the teenager fell two or three feet in front of Wilson, said the caller, who identified herself as the officer's friend.
A source with detailed knowledge of the investigation later told CNN the caller's account is "accurate," in that it matches what Wilson has told investigators.
Meanwhile, a spokesman for the St. Louis County prosecuting attorney said Monday that evidence in the shooting death could be presented to a grand jury as early as Wednesday.
According to the account on St. Louis radio station KFTK, phoned in by a woman who identified herself as "Josie," the altercation on August 9 began after Officer Darren Wilson rolled down his window to tell Brown and a friend to stop walking in the street.
When Wilson tried to get out of his cruiser, Brown first tried to push the officer back into the car, then punched him in the face and grabbed for his gun before breaking free after the gun went off once, the caller said.
Wilson pursued Brown and his friend, ordering them to freeze, according to the account. When they turned around, Brown began taunting Wilson, saying he would not arrest them, then ran at the officer at full speed, the caller said.
Wilson then began shooting. The final shot was to Brown's forehead, and the teenager fell two or three feet in front of Wilson, said the caller, who identified herself as the officer's friend.
A source with detailed knowledge of the investigation later told CNN the caller's account is "accurate," in that it matches what Wilson has told investigators.
So that's the police version of the story.
QUOTE
Brown was unarmed when Ferguson police officer Darren Wilson, 28, shot him on a street Aug. 9. Witnesses in the area said Brown had raised his hands to surrender when he was shot.
Other side.
Posted by TPRJones on Aug. 18 2014,16:15
Well, at least they are reported in equal detail. Yay, journalism!As usual, I agree on the whole with John Oliver:
Although he was nicer than I would have been. He didn't use the phrase "murderous jack-booted thugs guilty of treason against the very people they were hired to protect and in need of a good hanging" even once!
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 18 2014,16:26
On the subject of militarized police, I think my fave question so far is why are they wearing camouflage?
Posted by thibodeaux on Aug. 19 2014,04:25
It often seems like cops are eager to shoot first and ask questions later. For example, you can find tons of stories of police shooting dogs that are chained or fenced, or just wagging their tails and play-bowing. Even when the shooting is prima-facie justified, like the WalMart guy recently, they have terrible marksmanship and wind up hurting bystanders (again, WalMart incident).On the other hand: this guy Brown is, what, 6'5"+? 300 lbs? He's gigantic. The store video from a few minutes before he was shot shows him roughing up a clerk and walking out with stolen merchandise. I believe he was also "jaywalking," which probably means he was sauntering down the middle of the street like he owned it. Wouldn't surprise me if he was drunk or high or stupid, or all three. So I can totally believe he would rush the cop.
And let's face it: cops DO get killed on the job, often by their own gun. That's the downside of carrying: sometimes, you just have to shoot the fucker before he takes it and shoots you. I hate it when the gun control idiots say that, but there's a grain of truth to it: if you have a gun, rule #1 is KEEP THAT GUN. There's some evidence that Trayvon Martin was trying to take Zimmerman's gun right before Zimmerman shot him.
Speaking of which: guess who popped up in this Ferguson situation? Benjamin Crump, the "lawyer for the Martin family." Also Sharpton, but you gotta expect him. They're vermin. Their mere presence is evidence for a bullshit situation.
So, all around: a giant mess. Exactly the kind of thing that requires careful examination of the evidence and ponderous deliberation, merely to find the most probable description of events, and which is likely to be unsatisfactory to all parties in the best case.
So naturally we need a riot.
Posted by Vince on Aug. 19 2014,04:29
From what I'm seeing, it looks like the shooting was justified. Everything after that was pooch screwing in how the locals handled it.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 19 2014,05:24
All well and good.I find myself more and more taking the position that maybe cops shouldn't be shooting people. They prove themselves time and again untrustworthy, unstable, stupid, dishonest, and sadistic (many, not all, granted). Tasers aren't 100% non-lethal, but are at least effective and we could avoid situations like this. The thug would not have had a gun for which to lunge, and he wouldn't be in the morgue over.... whatever it is. And there would not be rioting, now.
Not saying lots of peeps don't have a killin coming, I just find myself less and less likely to trust the government to have competent people pulling the triggers. The militarization of the civilian police does not improve my disposition one little bit, either.
In summary, neither side is right, but the police are more wrong. They are supposed to not allow shit like this to happen, and their main tactic so far seems to be fuck up a whole lot of bystanders and arrest reporters.
Posted by Vince on Aug. 19 2014,06:55
(GORDON @ Aug. 19 2014,07:24)
QUOTE
I find myself more and more taking the position that maybe cops shouldn't be shooting people. They prove themselves time and again untrustworthy, unstable, stupid, dishonest, and sadistic (many, not all, granted). Tasers aren't 100% non-lethal, but are at least effective and we could avoid situations like this. The thug would not have had a gun for which to lunge, and he wouldn't be in the morgue over.... whatever it is. And there would not be rioting, now.
Sorry, if a 300 lb meat head bum rushes me and I'm packing, he's getting shot in the head. If a private citizen had done this, he'd have been justified as well.
If the big asshole hadn't been a big asshole he wouldn't be in the morgue. Did you see him shoving the store clerk around? That guy looked like he was all of 5'4 and 60 years old.
Meat head was a punk ass and it was only a matter of time before someone shot him in the head or he ended up in prison.
Again, most everything AFTER the shooting was handled poorly. But the shooting itself looks valid.
Posted by TheCatt on Aug. 19 2014,07:53
Maybe they should shoot people, with less fatal weapons.
Posted by Vince on Aug. 19 2014,08:12
That didn't seem to help with Rodney King. If you'll recall, they hit him twice with the tazer darts and he just shrugged them off and kept coming. Didn't seem to do anything to prevent the riots. Actually, I think there would have been less trouble if they'd just shot and killed Rodney King after the tazer didn't slow him down.
Posted by Leisher on Aug. 19 2014,12:37
< Rioters shooting at police. 31 arrested. >Here's the interesting bit that's buried deep in the article:
QUOTE
Johnson said some of those arrested had come from California and New York.
I wonder who might have incited these people to show up? I wonder how they were able to take time off work to show up?
Anyone remember how in Iraq it was pointed out that a lot of the resistance was coming from people not from Iraq?
Posted by Vince on Aug. 19 2014,13:03
QUOTE
"It's like looting tourism," said the officer.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 19 2014,13:20
< Battleship Awkwardly Propped Up Against Ferguson Police Department >
Posted by Vince on Aug. 19 2014,13:29
Heheh... that's about true, too.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 19 2014,13:35
That's my main problem with all this.All thieves are scum, and I support and advocate a return to the pillory, lashing, and jailing in the town square for minor-major theft. Should be public and painful and embarrassing. That's how I feel about the rioting.
You don't attack anyone who has a gun, especially a cop, because
Cops are trained to kill you and aim for center mass and not stop firing until you are most assuredly dead, and they have a lot better equipment than you do and are probably wearing body armor anyway and could be mistaken for national guard troops. This part I don't agree with (aside from the body armor, purely defensive). I think the tools exist that civilian police don't need to go lethal every single time, even in the face of a lethal threat. Even when raiding a meth lab (just cordon and wait them out because you might have the < WRONG > < FUCKING > < HOUSE >). It just isn't necessary. Cops don't need to be going full Waco on petty shit, but they are for some reason.
Posted by Vince on Aug. 19 2014,14:50
(GORDON @ Aug. 19 2014,15:35)
QUOTE
That's my main problem with all this.
All thieves are scum, and I support and advocate a return to the pillory, lashing, and jailing in the town square for minor-major theft. Should be public and painful and embarrassing. That's how I feel about the rioting.
You don't attack anyone who has a gun, especially a cop, because
Cops are trained to kill you and aim for center mass and not stop firing until you are most assuredly dead, and they have a lot better equipment than you do and are probably wearing body armor anyway and could be mistaken for national guard troops. This part I don't agree with (aside from the body armor, purely defensive). I think the tools exist that civilian police don't need to go lethal every single time, even in the face of a lethal threat. Even when raiding a meth lab (just cordon and wait them out because you might have the < WRONG > < FUCKING > < HOUSE >). It just isn't necessary. Cops don't need to be going full Waco on petty shit, but they are for some reason.
All thieves are scum, and I support and advocate a return to the pillory, lashing, and jailing in the town square for minor-major theft. Should be public and painful and embarrassing. That's how I feel about the rioting.
You don't attack anyone who has a gun, especially a cop, because
Cops are trained to kill you and aim for center mass and not stop firing until you are most assuredly dead, and they have a lot better equipment than you do and are probably wearing body armor anyway and could be mistaken for national guard troops. This part I don't agree with (aside from the body armor, purely defensive). I think the tools exist that civilian police don't need to go lethal every single time, even in the face of a lethal threat. Even when raiding a meth lab (just cordon and wait them out because you might have the < WRONG > < FUCKING > < HOUSE >). It just isn't necessary. Cops don't need to be going full Waco on petty shit, but they are for some reason.
Agree with all of this. I think the cop was probably in a justifiable shooting here.
I'm okay with tanks and guys with full auto weapons and everything else in the streets during a riot as long as they are there because the Gov called up the State National Guard. That's the only time it should be okay, because when that happens it should be a big deal with a LOT of media attention.
Too many "no knock" warrants. Too many tactical units. Why the hell does the Dept of Ed need a tac unit? Insane.
Posted by TheCatt on Aug. 20 2014,03:39
< Michael Brown theft video >Dude's huge.
Posted by Leisher on Aug. 20 2014,07:25
(TheCatt @ Aug. 20 2014,06:39)
QUOTE
< Michael Brown theft video >
Dude's huge.
Dude's huge.
I have been told that video is irrelevant.
Posted by TheCatt on Aug. 20 2014,08:19
Yeah, I heard the same. I don't get that at all. According to John Oliver, "no one asked for [it]." Really? No one wanted to see the crime he committed before getting shot? I find that odd.
Posted by thibodeaux on Aug. 20 2014,08:30
< Hah! >
Posted by Leisher on Aug. 20 2014,08:36
Fact: He walked into a convenience store and strong arm robbed the place. He walked out without any fear of consequences. I'm not really sure why that's irrelevant since it creates a knowledge about his state of mind before the shooting.
- It shows us what he thought of the law.
- It shows us what he thought of his own physical abilities.
- It shows us that perhaps he was thinking the cops knew about the robbery or would know soon, and he might have been concerned about going to jail.
- It backs up the cop's version of Brown's behavior far more than the story about him "surrendering".
Yeah, none of that's important...
Posted by TheCatt on Aug. 20 2014,08:53
Yeah, 100% with you, Leisher. Don't understand this at all. So far the only other witness was his accomplice to that crime, right?
Posted by Vince on Aug. 20 2014,09:54
I think there were a couple of others that came forward saying that they saw something the evidence doesn't support.I heard audio from the sidelines after the shooting that someone had posted to youtube and the people around the guy with the camera were discussing what they were seeing. One guy asked why he was pointed away from the squad car if he was charging the cop. I will give some people (not his partner in crime) the benefit of doubt and assume that along with their distrust of cops and trying to reconcile what they were seeing, their brains filled in some inconstancies with things that just didn't happen.
Posted by TPRJones on Aug. 20 2014,10:11
When a cop has to shoot someone, it means they've failed at their job. No exceptions.The job of the cop is to serve and protect. His #1 priority in every situation should be for everyone to be calm and reasonable by the end of it with no extra holes put into them. Sometimes that will be impossible, and if someone is showing very clear signs that they are about to cause massive harm to another person (pointing a gun at them or rushing them with a drawn knife) then they will have to suck it up and fail by shooting them. So be it. But unless there is immediate danger to someone's life and limb then any use of lethal force should be a firing offense.
Last I checked shoplifting wasn't an offense worthy of the death penalty.
Posted by TPRJones on Aug. 20 2014,10:11
< How the media > would be covering Ferguson if it was taking place in another country.
Posted by TheCatt on Aug. 20 2014,10:34
There's my favorite quote:QUOTE
VIOLENCE COULD SPREAD TO OIL-PRODUCING REGIONS SUCH AS OKLAHOMA OR EVEN DISRUPT THE FLOW OF AMERICAN BEER SUPPLIES
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 20 2014,11:49
Here's a veteran LA cop defending the Fergeson cops:< http://www.cnn.com/2014....t=hp_t1 >
QUOTE
"I'm a cop. If you don't want to get hurt, don't challenge me," the Washington Post headline blares. The piece was written by Sunil Dutta, a 17-year veteran of the Los Angeles Police Department.
"Even though it might sound harsh and impolitic, here is the bottom line: if you don't want to get shot, tased, pepper-sprayed, struck with a baton or thrown to the ground, just do what I tell you,"
"Even though it might sound harsh and impolitic, here is the bottom line: if you don't want to get shot, tased, pepper-sprayed, struck with a baton or thrown to the ground, just do what I tell you,"
Strangely, the public isn't receiving it well.
Posted by Leisher on Aug. 20 2014,11:56
QUOTE
When a cop has to shoot someone, it means they've failed at their job. No exceptions.
The job of the cop is to serve and protect. His #1 priority in every situation should be for everyone to be calm and reasonable by the end of it with no extra holes put into them. Sometimes that will be impossible, and if someone is showing very clear signs that they are about to cause massive harm to another person (pointing a gun at them or rushing them with a drawn knife) then they will have to suck it up and fail by shooting them. So be it. But unless there is immediate danger to someone's life and limb then any use of lethal force should be a firing offense.
Last I checked shoplifting wasn't an offense worthy of the death penalty.
The job of the cop is to serve and protect. His #1 priority in every situation should be for everyone to be calm and reasonable by the end of it with no extra holes put into them. Sometimes that will be impossible, and if someone is showing very clear signs that they are about to cause massive harm to another person (pointing a gun at them or rushing them with a drawn knife) then they will have to suck it up and fail by shooting them. So be it. But unless there is immediate danger to someone's life and limb then any use of lethal force should be a firing offense.
Last I checked shoplifting wasn't an offense worthy of the death penalty.
I have to disagree with this sentiment. Sorry TPR.
I would not consider killing someone in the defense of someone else or your own life a "failure". I think that's completely unfair, and honestly, utopian thinking. I get the intent behind your statement, but it's unfair and is stated without any knowledge or experience.
Put in his situation, alone, armed, and with a 6'4" 300 pound man threatening your life, what would you do? By the way, < he just got done beating the shit out of you >.
Don't give me the surrender horseshit. He just strong armed a convenience store and beat up a cop, but now he's surrendering? Yeah, ok.
However, I absolutely agree that it's the very last option that should be exercised.
No cop should ever shoot first and ask questions later. They should NEVER pull the trigger unless their life is in immediate danger or the life of an innocent. Even then, if a safe shot can be taken, it should.
As for the last sentence:
QUOTE
Last I checked shoplifting wasn't an offense worthy of the death penalty.
Please don't compare shoplifting to strong armed robbery. They are very different crimes. That's like comparing simple assault with premeditated murder.
More importantly, Brown wasn't killed for the robbery. Wilson didn't even know that happened. The whole incident started because Brown and his cohort were walking in the middle of the street and Wilson told them to get out of it.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 20 2014,12:07
I've said it before and I've been disagreed with before, but I think ALL cops should be this patient, calm, cool, and collected. Posted by Leisher on Aug. 20 2014,12:12
(GORDON @ Aug. 20 2014,14:49)
QUOTE
Here's a veteran LA cop defending the Fergeson cops:
< http://www.cnn.com/2014....t=hp_t1 >
Strangely, the public isn't receiving it well.
< http://www.cnn.com/2014....t=hp_t1 >
QUOTE
"I'm a cop. If you don't want to get hurt, don't challenge me," the Washington Post headline blares. The piece was written by Sunil Dutta, a 17-year veteran of the Los Angeles Police Department.
"Even though it might sound harsh and impolitic, here is the bottom line: if you don't want to get shot, tased, pepper-sprayed, struck with a baton or thrown to the ground, just do what I tell you,"
"Even though it might sound harsh and impolitic, here is the bottom line: if you don't want to get shot, tased, pepper-sprayed, struck with a baton or thrown to the ground, just do what I tell you,"
Strangely, the public isn't receiving it well.
But honestly, how wrong is he?
If you walk down an alley at night and a guy jumps out with a knife do you do what he says or do you defy him?
Granted, he doesn't have the authority of the law behind him, but the basic theme is the same. (I'll get to the whole government thug slant in a moment.)
You, of all people, should understand his point. (Granted, he's not very eloquent about it.) When Marines are securing an area do they shoot everyone in sight or do they try to keep the innocents safe? (Keep in mind that some people will swear they kill everyone. This is important as you consider the cops' side in this case.) And how do they do that? Do they do that by treating everyone like they're innocents until they prove otherwise or do they treat everyone like a potential enemy until the area is secure?
Don't give me the war time bullshit either. You good and damn well know it's the same thing.
It's why we've seen videos of good, well trained cops approaching armed gun rights people without drawing their weapons, and instead just asking them to show the gun isn't loaded before they converse with them. It's about ensuring that everyone is safe then getting to the bottom of things.
He isn't implying that you need to obey any order he gives you without question (at least I hope not), but you certainly should try to be cool headed when the armed person(s) comes onto the scene.
Do we have bad cops on the streets? Yep.
Do we have poorly trained cops on the streets? Yep.
Do we have a lack of non-lethal equipment on the streets? Yep.
Do we have far too many cops patrolling alone rather than with a partner? Yep.
Who is that on? The cops or us, the taxpaying voters?
And I agree with your video Gordo. There are some awesome fucking cops out there like that guy, but there are some fucking evil pricks out there too. Criminals with badges. IMHO, those jackasses are on us for allowing the system to be warped to placate horseshit like political correctness.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 20 2014,12:48
(Leisher @ Aug. 20 2014,15:12)
QUOTE
You, of all people, should understand his point. (Granted, he's not very eloquent about it.) When Marines are securing an area do they shoot everyone in sight or do they try to keep the innocents safe? (Keep in mind that some people will swear they kill everyone. This is important as you consider the cops' side in this case.) And how do they do that? Do they do that by treating everyone like they're innocents until they prove otherwise or do they treat everyone like a potential enemy until the area is secure?
But this is the entire crux of the argument.... cops aint soldiers. They aren't supposed to be, on purpose. Ultimately, a soldier's primary objective is to kill peeps. Ultimately, a cop's primary objective is to protect peeps.... that means all peeps, even ones who have the wrong attitude.
I fully 100% agree that one has the right to protect his own life by any means necessary. I partially disagree that means emptying the magazine into a civilian, center mass. I am not taking a hard, absolute stance on this.... I am just saying there are WAY more stories about cops who seem to get a sexual thrill when they finally get to shoot the family dog, or something.
If nothing else, I hope this Ferguson situation finally gets the country wondering why cops are gearing up with military hardware. I think it is a mindset that has civilian police creeping more and more into "these civilians are the Enemy" mindsets. Capital-E Enemy. Like when you are in the Marines and you are told "everyone beyond this point is trying to kill you, kill them first." It rarely works well when Marines are put on civilian protection duty when they are universally disliked and can't speak the language, and it doesn't always work well when cops are expected to act like soldiers in neighborhoods where they are universally disliked and possibly can't speak the language.
Posted by TPRJones on Aug. 20 2014,14:13
QUOTE
However, I absolutely agree that it's the very last option that should be exercised.
No cop should ever shoot first and ask questions later. They should NEVER pull the trigger unless their life is in immediate danger or the life of an innocent. Even then, if a safe shot can be taken, it should.
No cop should ever shoot first and ask questions later. They should NEVER pull the trigger unless their life is in immediate danger or the life of an innocent. Even then, if a safe shot can be taken, it should.
I think we agree more than we disagree, I'm just coming at it from a more anarchic stance.
And yes, it's not fair, but I do think any cop that has to use lethal force has failed. Sometimes it really is necessary and not fair but it still is what it is. He should learn from it and move on and try that much harder to avoid it in the future. Instead we have cops that are all too eager to shoot people all willy-nilly because they don't see it as a failure at all.
For once, I agree almost 100% with GORDON on something.
QUOTE
If nothing else, I hope this Ferguson situation finally gets the country wondering why cops are gearing up with military hardware.
Because of the War on Drugs. That's the only reason. It's the motivation and also the source of funds.
Kill the War on Drugs and all the money to pay for their military gear goes away overnight. Then maybe we can start to get back to some sanity in our police forces.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 20 2014,14:23
I hate hesitating when I teaching my son life lessons and I have to force myself to tell him, "You can trust the police, if someone does X to you get away and try to find a cop immediately" type of lessons. I hate that I have to hesitate when I tell him that, but I hate that I am giving him a mindset that he should always trust police. I don't think he should. It's just at this time in his life his safety is more important to me than my own hypocrisy. At this age he CAN trust the police. I wish we could go back to the time when Officer Friendly was always your friend.... if that time ever really existed. I guess it has existed for white people for about the last 150 years... but as I said before, as they militarize more and more, we're all the enemy. We certainly are the enemy at something as mundane as a traffic stop when he is keeping back from your window with his hand near his gun because you were going 42 in a 35 and decides your hair is a little long and you wouldn't object to me searching your car, would you? Yes you do mind? Fine. Sit over there in the grass while I call in the drug dog to sniff around your car and try to get probably cause. Shouldn't be more than a couple hours.... which brings us back to the War on Drugs, doesn't it.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 20 2014,14:32
Ferguson cop points weapon at civilians threatening to kill them, when asked for his name tells them to go fuck themselves. ACLU gets him "relieved of duty," which I suspect means paid time off.< https://twitter.com/chrisgeidner/status/502164244046307328/photo/1 >
Posted by Cakedaddy on Aug. 20 2014,14:50
I wish we could go back to the time where people didn't shoot cops in the face when they respond to a domestic abuse call. If that time ever really existed.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 20 2014,17:42
Yeah me too.?
Posted by Vince on Aug. 21 2014,03:22
(TPRJones @ Aug. 20 2014,16:13)
QUOTE
Because of the War on Drugs. That's the only reason. It's the motivation and also the source of funds.
Kill the War on Drugs and all the money to pay for their military gear goes away overnight. Then maybe we can start to get back to some sanity in our police forces.
Kill the War on Drugs and all the money to pay for their military gear goes away overnight. Then maybe we can start to get back to some sanity in our police forces.
Unfortunately, much of what they have is surplus being given to them by the Pentagon. They have to pay for upkeep (which many smaller places didn't think about and are struggling with), but they still get free stuff.
Posted by Leisher on Aug. 21 2014,10:32
Disclaimer: I'm going to use the word "bigotry" a few times. In no way shape or form do I mean it as an insult. Somehow that word became a massive insult, yet in truth, EVERYONE is a bigot. That's a fact. Everyone is a bigot about something and/or someone. People need to grow up and just accept it. We all don't have to like the same things or each other. We just have to respect and tolerate one another. I also want to say that this was the majority of my morning, and it was exhausting. It's been years in the making, so I'm definitely venting and ranting a bit. I'm also going to avoid this chain for the rest of the day so I can get work done. So take your time responding and telling me how wrong I am. I'll get back to it when I know I have the mental energy (probably not today).
I truly hope you'll give my long winded posting a chance and do so with an open mind.
Anyway...
QUOTE
But this is the entire crux of the argument.... cops aint soldiers.
No sir. You're incorrect. Go read my post again. Nobody is arguing that cops are soldiers.
I was referring to how each secure a situation. Or do you really want to argue that cops should enter dangerous situations without gaining control of the area?
Hell, it's the same method parents use on unruly children. "Stop it! You sit there. You sit there. Now, one at a time, tell me what happened."
QUOTE
I partially disagree that means emptying the magazine into a civilian, center mass.
A 6'4" 300 pound who just beat the shit out of you and partially blinded you is now charging you. Do you:
A. Shoot him until he falls.
B. Shoot him only twice so it doesn't seem excessive later?
And let's remember that the first 4 shots didn't slow him down. (They all hit his arm.)
Before you answer, go look your kid right in his eyes and think about his life without dad because dad didn't want to defend himself.
Harsh? No. We've pointed out what was probably going through the mind of Brown. Why not point out what was probably going through the mind of Wilson? The guy was alone, against two people, beaten down, partially blind, and armed. No training can teach you not to be scared.
QUOTE
I am not taking a hard, absolute stance on this.... I am just saying there are WAY more stories about cops who seem to get a sexual thrill when they finally get to shoot the family dog, or something.
Do I really need to point out the bigotry in this statement?
Pointing out there are "WAY more" stories about cops behaving badly is ridiculously beneath you. I mean, REALLY? The MSM is reporting stories about cops shooting the family dog on a mistaken raid, but never, ever report about cops doing good work in their local community? Color me shocked. SHOCKED I SAY!!! It's almost as if they sensationalize things for ratings!
Next you'll tell me that they report crime like we live in a very crime ridden society despite the fact that crime is at its lowest level in decades.
I hope you don't pay attention during the next election cycle or you might notice how much more positive press Democrat candidates get. It might ruin your faith in the election system!
Seriously though, if you followed sports ball you'd see similar reporting. ESPN's headlines almost always contain stories about athletes being assholes or breaking the law. If Catt, Troy, or Stranger are reading this they will attest to this fact. All you ever hear about are marijuana arrests, steroid abuse, assaults, hanging out with Justin Bieber, etc. Meanwhile, you never hear shit about how a LARGE percentage of these guys do charity work all the fucking time. How they fly to a town to visit a sick kid. How they give their time and money to help poor neighborhoods.
We're all bigots against something, and sometimes the MSM helps us justify our bigotry by not telling us the complete story. I find it amazing that we KNOW this to be true yet conveniently forget it at times when it helps us personally justify something. We all do it.
QUOTE
For once, I agree almost 100% with GORDON on something.
QUOTE
If nothing else, I hope this Ferguson situation finally gets the country wondering why cops are gearing up with military hardware.
Then you're not going to like this...
(jk, you will.)That's an absolutely legit question, but it's not the one people should be asking right now.
Cops should NOT be armed like they're raiding Castle Wolfenstein. However, at this point in time, who gives a fuck? Seriously, what the fuck does it matter? Why are you so concerned that cops have weapons the military uses?
Because you are concerned that there are bad cops out there. Cops without the proper mental capabilities to handle the emotions and stress of their job. Cops that are poorly trained. Cops that shouldn't be fucking cops. And guess what? You're right. And that's the issue that needs to be addressed first.
I've been on here for YEARS telling you guys what is really going on in police departments, but you've ignored me. Political correctness, budget cuts, corruption, misdirection from the politicians in charge, horseshit laws that they're forced to enforce, etc.
If you have a bigotry towards cops it might prevent you from listening to me or accepting that behind the badge lies normal people. A lot of whom are doing a good job and are fair with people. Who don't shoot first. Who think these shitty cops suck and need to be removed. Who will rush into danger to save another cop's life, but won't let them off if they pull them over for a DUI. Who want to make changes, but don't have the power. That's a tough nugget to swallow though because it humanizes them. It's just easier to talk about how they all suck, they're always wrong, or how you'd like to just kill them because saying that about blacks, whites, Asians, Muslims, women, etc. isn't the EXACT SAME THING and something you'd claim to never do because you're not a bigot...
The questions that truly need to be asked are much tougher than just asking why a town of 8400 has a tank. Why are you passing over hiring more qualified cops just to hire a lesser candidate because of their skin color or genitalia? What training do our police receive and why isn't there a program for them to be certified annually? What programs are in place to help them deal with the high emotions and stress of the job so they don't begin to look at the public as enemies or crack and beat someone to death? Who is the police chief and why is he/she qualified for their job? Who is watching over the local police department to ensure there's no corruption or "clics" being built to hold down good cops, and help others keep cushy jobs? Why do we have cops riding alone? Why doesn't every cop car have a working camera that is always recording video and audio?
We're more worried about our favorite team's head coach then the guy in charge of the armed people who patrol our neighborhood. We care more about the QB's ACL than we do the mental state of Officer Barbrady. We elect people into office who cut police budgets or force them to make more diversity hires even if qualified candidates can't be found.
Then we bitch and moan and blame the cops on the street when anything goes wrong. When do we accept some of the responsibility?
When your bank fucks you do you blame the teller or the executives who own/run the bank? The logic behind this whole "hate the police" thing just doesn't add up.
Side note: I am not implying that people of color or women aren't good cops or don't deserve jobs over male whiteys. Diversity is not only a good thing, it's necessary, but hire qualified candidates. Don't just fill a job in the name of diversity. If you want to diversify, but can't find a local candidate good enough, search statewide or nationwide.
Bad cops deserve their reps and then some. However, to lump all cops together is small minded horseshit and everyone on this board should know better.
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Because of the War on Drugs. That's the only reason. It's the motivation and also the source of funds.
Kill the War on Drugs and all the money to pay for their military gear goes away overnight. Then maybe we can start to get back to some sanity in our police forces.
Kill the War on Drugs and all the money to pay for their military gear goes away overnight. Then maybe we can start to get back to some sanity in our police forces.
I'm quoting that one here because it backs up what I'm saying above. We're blaming the tellers, not the bankers.
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I think we agree more than we disagree, I'm just coming at it from a more anarchic stance.
Fair enough. I don't think my stance is far off from anyone else's. I do think I'm far more informed and knowledgeable on this subject than anyone else here.
I think in the end we all want the same thing, it's just we differ on where we think the finger should be pointed and how to get to the goal line.
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I hate hesitating when I teaching my son life lessons and I have to force myself to tell him, "You can trust the police, if someone does X to you get away and try to find a cop immediately" type of lessons. I hate that I have to hesitate when I tell him that,
That is completely on you. Sorry man, but that's pure bigotry. I realize it might be borne out of experience, the MSM, things you were taught, or whatever else, but somewhere on the interweb someone else wrote that exact sentence except instead of cop or police, he wrote priest. Someone else wrote it about white people, another about women, etc.
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but I hate that I am giving him a mindset that he should always trust police. I don't think he should. It's just at this time in his life his safety is more important to me than my own hypocrisy. At this age he CAN trust the police.
That's fair. Someday when he's more mentally able to understand you can explain to him that some cops aren't good cops. However, don't pass on your bias. I know that sounds judgmental, but again, we all do the shit.
To put it in a silly and lighter way, I hate Nutella. I don't ever say anything around it in front of my kids though because they love it and I don't want to pass my bigotry for concentrated assholes down to them.
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I wish we could go back to the time when Officer Friendly was always your friend.... if that time ever really existed. I guess it has existed for white people for about the last 150 years... but as I said before, as they militarize more and more, we're all the enemy. We certainly are the enemy at something as mundane as a traffic stop when he is keeping back from your window with his hand near his gun because you were going 42 in a 35 and decides your hair is a little long and you wouldn't object to me searching your car, would you? Yes you do mind? Fine. Sit over there in the grass while I call in the drug dog to sniff around your car and try to get probably cause. Shouldn't be more than a couple hours.... which brings us back to the War on Drugs, doesn't it.
I swear I'm not picking on you Gordo, you just have the quotes I need at a time when I decided to finally open up. (I had been purposely avoiding this threat for the first few days because I have gorwn tired of arguing with you guys on this topic over the years.)
That whole paragraph proves everything I'm talking about. It makes assumptions. It's bigoted (bonus points for added bigotry against people with long hair!). Then it goes on to blame the teller for the banker's decisions.
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I wish we could go back to the time where people didn't shoot cops in the face when they respond to a domestic abuse call. If that time ever really existed.
Exactly. The trust goes both ways.
Cops are being accused of being jack booted thugs who hate us, yet it's not being noticed that perhaps our attitude needs to be adjusted as well? Perhaps Officer Friendly exists, but you can't see him because you're too busy pre-judging him as Officer Fuckstick?
I know of a woman who was once raped by a white man, and now she does not trust white men and will not date them. Understandable to a point, but it's clearly illogical. Yet here we are doing the same thing.
And I'm NOT saying that we're 100% wrong. Do not try to play that angle. I know I'm pointing a large finger in this direction, but that's not what I'm trying to do here. I'm just trying to open a mind or two and show that perhaps we're focusing our anger in the wrong direction, and it's not productive.
I don't know. I'm fucking exhausted. I just know that change needs to take place.
The MSM needs to stop pointing out every cop mistake and immediately screaming "racism" or saying in every single major case that "the police messed up" or "the crime lab made mistakes". Such claims aren't always true, and sometimes a wise defense attorney will get an ignorant reporter to claim it's true because then it is... Local reporters should do more "nice" pieces about police involvement in the community to offset the bad shit they report.
The MSM also needs to try doing some actual journalism and start investigating police departments. Here's a thought, if the police keep fucking up, why aren't you up their ass with a camera asking their superiors why? Why aren't you looking at their budget? Their qualifications? Etc.
We, as voters, need to demand more from our elected officials. We need to ask them why the local police need a hovertank to chase down bike thieves. We need to ask them why they hired someone underqualified as chief. What their standards and expectations are for the police force so if they're not met, we can ask why that chief hasn't been removed. We should demand more transparency like Obama gave us. hehe, couldn't resist.
Meanwhile, the politicians and cops...where the fuck to begin?
Politicians need to end the stupid war on drugs. They also need to end the war to fill their pockets with tax payer money. End politically correct, yet somehow sexist and racist hiring quotas. Hire out of state independent boards to watch over police departments with random investigations, drug/alcohol tests, background checks, etc. More importantly, stop using the police as enforcers for their bullshit.
Cops need to earn back the trust of their citizens. They need to require community outreach programs. They need to publicly fire/suspend/retrain cops who do stupid shit like the idiot Gordo linked above. They need to report and/or arrest cops they see breaking the law. They need to give back the tanks and RPGs. They need to turn their full time SWAT teams into community outreach people...who also do tactical shit. They need to find answers to help cops fight off the very natural human behavior of looking down upon those you have authority over. Perhaps alternating rotations on and off the street? They also need to find something to help cops ease their own fight instincts.
Etc for all.
Oh, and this shit goes for the fire department as well. I have three daughters, but don't want them to die in a fire just because the fire department had to hire a woman in the name of equality even though she can't do the job.
Hey political correctness, I can piss standing up, women can't. Get the fuck over it. They get multiple orgasms and half my shit. I think the scales are already in their favor. (Ok, now I'm just riffing.)
To sum this rant up, I just get sick of the constant: "cops are bad" message that gets preached here on a daily basis. Nobody is offering up solutions. Nobody is having a discussion. It's just "all cops are evil and everything they do is wrong". If people were talking this same shit about an ethnic group or sex they'd have been destroyed by now. We gave more slack to the Hitlers we were teamed up with in LoL.
There are some shitty, shitty fucking cops out there. Men and women who shouldn't have access to weapons or power. I will never argue that point. Even good cops fuck up on the job. I won't ever argue that point either.
However, to paint all cops as bad cops, to deny that they're normal people like the rest of us, claim they're all fuck ups, post nothing but negative shit about them as some sort of pat on your own back while offering no solutions except for warped delusions involving violence, imply everything they do is wrong, etc. Well, that's just ignorant bigoted horseshit.
And again, I'm not trying to offend anyone, although if you took offense imagine listening to jackasses talk about how your father should be shot in the head for several years. How incompetent he is and how he's not a normal person, but an evil oppressor. Not to mention all the other family members who are/were cops and all your family friends. Enough gets to be enough.
But hey, what do I know? I only know cops. I only see how the system works. I'm sure the absolutely unbiased and totally not in it for the ratings MSM that you trust for nothing else gets all anti-cop stories dead right every time. I'm sure all my facts are wrong and cops do hate you all and are sitting around plotting out how to screw you over constantly.
Absolutely report the fuck out of bad cops or bad police policies, although it'd probably be more helpful if you complained to a politician, but whatever. Stop dehumanizing cops. They're not your enemy. Not even the bad ones. Realize that the tellers don't set the interest rates and start complaining to the bankers. Just fucking stop with the hate speech. It's like I share a forum with a handful of Al Sharptons.
Posted by Vince on Aug. 21 2014,14:19
Leisher, I don't disagree with much of anything you posted. Except for the militarization of the police. That bothers me a lot more than it does you. The reason being that there's a reason our military isn't supposed to be operating on US soil. It's so it would become clear if they were to become an occupying force. Along with all the PC BS that's being thrust onto the police force, add military hardware and we still end up in a police state. Just one with more middle men.
Posted by TPRJones on Aug. 21 2014,17:02
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Or do you really want to argue that cops should enter dangerous situations without gaining control of the area?
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Next you'll tell me that they report crime like we live in a very crime ridden society despite the fact that crime is at its lowest level in decades.
The problem is that it seems as a rule they now enter way too many situations as if it were a dangerous situation. Someone needs to tell them that crime is at its lowest level in decades and that they don't need to treat every citizen they interact with as a scumbag perp.
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Why are you so concerned that cops have weapons the military uses?
Because you are concerned that there are bad cops out there. Cops without the proper mental capabilities to handle the emotions and stress of their job. Cops that are poorly trained. Cops that shouldn't be fucking cops. And guess what? You're right. And that's the issue that needs to be addressed first.
Because you are concerned that there are bad cops out there. Cops without the proper mental capabilities to handle the emotions and stress of their job. Cops that are poorly trained. Cops that shouldn't be fucking cops. And guess what? You're right. And that's the issue that needs to be addressed first.
I don't disagree at all, the root of the overall problem is all the bad cops. Or more accurately the shitty politically-driven management of cop shops. But if all our police were 100% officer friendly levels of competent I still wouldn't want them to have military grade hardware. Vince summarized why well, IMO.
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If you have a bigotry towards cops it might prevent you from listening to me or accepting that behind the badge lies normal people. A lot of whom are doing a good job and are fair with people. Who don't shoot first. Who think these shitty cops suck and need to be removed. Who will rush into danger to save another cop's life, but won't let them off if they pull them over for a DUI. Who want to make changes, but don't have the power.
I've long said that by my experience about 1/3rd of cops are actually good and competent public servants that do a good job, about 1/3rd used to be good but have had it beaten out of them by a shit system and no longer care, and about 1/3rd are so awful they should never have been given a badge. I stand by those ratios. But any time someone is given extra-legal powers over other citizens, we should be 99.99% certain that we have chosen someone who will use those powers well and only when absolutely necessary, not 30% certain.
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Then we bitch and moan and blame the cops on the street when anything goes wrong. When do we accept some of the responsibility?
Personally I have no power to oust the local Chief of Police if he's shitty. Do you? I absolutely agree that the core problem is management, but after decades of bullshit management we have a very large percentage of bullshit cops to show for it. And along with the management I also do blame the shitty cops when they do wrong. Clearly I think that percentage is much higher than you do.
On the whole I agree with your main points, though. Although I don't think the word bigotry can be applied, because you can only be bigoted against something about a person that they are born with and can't change, such as skin color or racial group or sexual preferences, etc. I don't know of anyone that was born with a badge pinned to their chest. Being a cop is a choice.
As to GORDON teaching his son, I think that by the time he starts to drive GORDON had better explain some harsh truths to him about the way many cops are these days or his son might get "accidentally" gunned down after being pulled over for speeding.
EDIT: Although I will admit to being bigoted specifically against people who were born assholes and chose to be cops.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 21 2014,20:44
(Leisher @ Aug. 21 2014,13:32)
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Why are you so concerned that cops have weapons the military uses?
Because you are concerned that there are bad cops out there. Cops without the proper mental capabilities to handle the emotions and stress of their job. Cops that are poorly trained. Cops that shouldn't be fucking cops. And guess what? You're right. And that's the issue that needs to be addressed first.
Because you are concerned that there are bad cops out there. Cops without the proper mental capabilities to handle the emotions and stress of their job. Cops that are poorly trained. Cops that shouldn't be fucking cops. And guess what? You're right. And that's the issue that needs to be addressed first.
This is partially true, but what is more true is that local cops end up being the enforcement arm of the local government paying their salaries (and feeding their kids and keeping a roof over their heads) and frankly, I don't trust local governments, either. I have a problem with authority in general, so I want "authority" armed as lightly as possible. That's just me.
I think more evil has been done by people "just following orders" than by people who were just bad eggs with a gun.
I will continue reading your long post now.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 21 2014,20:47
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Politicians need to end the stupid war on drugs. They also need to end the war to fill their pockets with tax payer money. End politically correct, yet somehow sexist and racist hiring quotas. Hire out of state independent boards to watch over police departments with random investigations, drug/alcohol tests, background checks, etc. More importantly, stop using the police as enforcers for their bullshit.
See, we do agree. This is what I just said above, I just hadn't gotten to that part of your post yet.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 21 2014,20:50
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There are some shitty, shitty fucking cops out there. Men and women who shouldn't have access to weapons or power. I will never argue that point. Even good cops fuck up on the job. I won't ever argue that point either.
However, to paint all cops as bad cops, to deny that they're normal people like the rest of us, claim they're all fuck ups, post nothing but negative shit about them as some sort of pat on your own back while offering no solutions except for warped delusions involving violence, imply everything they do is wrong, etc. Well, that's just ignorant bigoted horseshit.
However, to paint all cops as bad cops, to deny that they're normal people like the rest of us, claim they're all fuck ups, post nothing but negative shit about them as some sort of pat on your own back while offering no solutions except for warped delusions involving violence, imply everything they do is wrong, etc. Well, that's just ignorant bigoted horseshit.
Another problem people have with cops is... isnt it pretty much a given that cops wont rat on each other, they universally hate their Internal Affairs department that roots out bad cops, they all circle the wagons when they have to, and when bad cops do bad things, isn't the rule of thumb "paid time off?"
People hate all that shit. You tell us that it's only a few bad apples, but when the entire barrel won't out the bad apples, the whole barrel is tainted.
Finger across the throat is a metaphor.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 21 2014,20:57
I like that you texted me the "this is not a personal attack" warning before you posted this. It shows that you respect me, and I appreciate that, even though you know it is not needed and I would never assume you were taking cheap shots at me or anything. Friends can call others on their bullshit from time to time, and it's fine.Hot gay sex over.
Even though I don't disclaimer every post I make, of course I don't think all cops are shitty. The law of averages says that some are pretty great. I don't know your dad, but I know you, so I just assume he was one of the great ones otherwise you wouldn't be the kewl dud3 you are.
I guess the hot gay sex wasn't quite over.
Anyway, I took none of your long post personally. I know I have baggage about law enforcement.
Posted by Vince on Aug. 22 2014,03:24
One thing that has become pretty clear from comments I'm seeing and hearing (at work and elsewhere, not hear) is that the police are in a no-win situation here.You get comments like, "Why couldn't he have just shot to wound him?"
The it comes out that the first 4 shots hit the guy in his arms and according to witnesses he just kept charging at the cop.
So then they say, "Why did he have to shoot him 6 times? That seems a little excessive!"
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 22 2014,19:06
Fun fact: our roadtrip took us about 5 miles from the riots from August 12-14.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 22 2014,19:42
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If you'll recall, they hit him twice with the tazer darts and he just shrugged them off and kept coming. Didn't seem to do anything to prevent the riots.
Then WHY THE FUCK do they carry those things if they're not effective? If zappage and volatile face spraying chemicals aren't powerful enough to take out your average NFL or NBA player, then your R&D department is getting fucking lazy. Shit, recently states haven't been able to kill people in under two fucking hours.
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Cops don't need to be going full Waco on petty shit, but they are for some reason.
Got to fill those county coffers and get those local asshole politicians reelected. That doesn't excuse a certain vibe I've gotten from about every cop I've ever met, in every state in this country, and every other fucking country I've ever been in. There's some part of the right brain that's switched off, and it's the fucking part that houses common sense.
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Because of the War on Drugs. That's the only reason. It's the motivation and also the source of funds.
Kill the War on Drugs and all the money to pay for their military gear goes away overnight. Then maybe we can start to get back to some sanity in our police forces.
Kill the War on Drugs and all the money to pay for their military gear goes away overnight. Then maybe we can start to get back to some sanity in our police forces.
A-fucking-men. All that sweet, sweet income. Makes speeding traps look like small change.
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We certainly are the enemy at something as mundane as a traffic stop when he is keeping back from your window with his hand near his gun because you were going 42 in a 35 and decides your hair is a little long and you wouldn't object to me searching your car, would you? Yes you do mind? Fine. Sit over there in the grass while I call in the drug dog to sniff around your car and try to get probably cause. Shouldn't be more than a couple hours.... which brings us back to the War on Drugs, doesn't it.
As I said, no motherfucking common sense. Draconian, authoritarian horseshit which would be called extortion or racketeering if any other fucking organization in this country tried it.
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...but I hate that I am giving him a mindset that he should always trust police.
I'll elaborate on this elsewhere but...
I've never been fond of the blues, and there is no fucking way I'll ever believe or trust one again knowing they're required to go through a larval stage where they're used to harass the public and other non-violent offenders specifically to fill pockets. Serving or protecting does not equal filling the county's wallet or quota.
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A lot of whom are doing a good job and are fair with people. Who don't shoot first. Who think these shitty cops suck and need to be removed. Who will rush into danger to save another cop's life, but won't let them off if they pull them over for a DUI. Who want to make changes, but don't have the power.
I have yet to meet a cop like that. I've met more than a few cops. You'd think that, statistically, I'd stumble on one eventually. And I sure as shit can't tell the difference when they wear the same uniform.
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Why doesn't every cop car have a working camera that is always recording video and audio?
Insert cynical response here. Maybe because when people do videotape the cops, they tend to get their cameras confiscated and they tend to get arrested.
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We're blaming the tellers, not the bankers.
Maybe they shouldn't work at that fucking bank then. When you're the frontliner, shit happens. I don't care from how far above your orders come. If you're the one physically executing them, "just doing my job" isn't excusing the fact that your job occasionally slides into "excessively punishing non-violent offenders in the name of the almighty dollar and some bullshit lesson in ethics." I blame the fucking tellers for that. Again, no common sense.
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The trust goes both ways.
They had a chance to gain some trust from me recently and they chose to squander it. I caught them straight up lying. Twice. And there's about a 0.01% chance I can do anything about it that will matter. Must be nice to know you can fall back on fraud and deception when you have to.
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Politicians need to end the stupid war on drugs. They also need to end the war to fill their pockets with tax payer money.
Not a bad idea.
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Cops need to earn back the trust of their citizens.
Agreed. Know how they could do that? Refuse to enforce bullshit laws. If the prosecutors refused to indict people for bullshit violations, that'd help as well. Yes, I know that directly contradicts their "follow orders" mentality but when your orders are twisted and fucked, going on strike or mutiny is the only reasonable response. It also requires balls and a leap of faith.
Posted by Leisher on Aug. 25 2014,07:46
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Leisher, I don't disagree with much of anything you posted. Except for the militarization of the police. That bothers me a lot more than it does you. The reason being that there's a reason our military isn't supposed to be operating on US soil. It's so it would become clear if they were to become an occupying force. Along with all the PC BS that's being thrust onto the police force, add military hardware and we still end up in a police state. Just one with more middle men.
I didn't say they should have it. I said, on my list of things to fix that isn't #1.
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The problem is that it seems as a rule they now enter way too many situations as if it were a dangerous situation. Someone needs to tell them that crime is at its lowest level in decades and that they don't need to treat every citizen they interact with as a scumbag perp.
A lot of them do, that's true. This needs to be corrected with training, psychological evaluations, etc.
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I've long said that by my experience about 1/3rd of cops are actually good and competent public servants that do a good job, about 1/3rd used to be good but have had it beaten out of them by a shit system and no longer care, and about 1/3rd are so awful they should never have been given a badge. I stand by those ratios. But any time someone is given extra-legal powers over other citizens, we should be 99.99% certain that we have chosen someone who will use those powers well and only when absolutely necessary, not 30% certain.
I don't think those numbers are way out of the ballpark. The most concerning number is the 1/3rd that have been beaten down. It's something most people don't understand or even think about when they criticize police. It's a job nobody wants, everyone hates, pays shit, and you're constantly in danger. Go do it for a decade and see how your attitude is after that. Hell, phone tech support folks have an average job expectancy of 6 months because it eats away at you. They're not getting shot at.
PBS did a documentary years ago, maybe in the 80s, that followed a young and extremely liberal guy as he was becoming a police officer. He was the "love everyone", all people are good, etc. type of hippie. As you can imagine, years as a cop basically reversed his attitude on everything.
There needs to be programs setup to spot guys who start spiraling and pull them out before they become a headline.
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Personally I have no power to oust the local Chief of Police if he's shitty. Do you?
For cities it's more difficult because you are essentially pleading to the mayor or council.
For smaller villages, townships, etc. it's the trustees you're after.
It's all about the politicians. They're the ones who fire chiefs and appoint them. The chiefs control the department.
Sheriffs you can obviously vote for and against.
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I absolutely agree that the core problem is management, but after decades of bullshit management we have a very large percentage of bullshit cops to show for it. And along with the management I also do blame the shitty cops when they do wrong. Clearly I think that percentage is much higher than you do.
No, I just agreed with your percentages.
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On the whole I agree with your main points, though. Although I don't think the word bigotry can be applied, because you can only be bigoted against something about a person that they are born with and can't change, such as skin color or racial group or sexual preferences, etc. I don't know of anyone that was born with a badge pinned to their chest. Being a cop is a choice
So is being Catholic or a Democrat, and since a person can be bigoted against them...
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I think more evil has been done by people "just following orders" than by people who were just bad eggs with a gun.
I absolutely agree with that.
However, if the orders are the problem, wouldn't it be more logical to resolve that issue at the source of the orders rather than at the enforcement level? Not saying the enforcement level shouldn't take criticism, but they certainly shouldn't take all the blame.
By the way, cops don't get any credit when they do stand up and fight back. Former mayor of Toledo...the one that was the fire chief...I'm completely blanking on his name. Anyway, he said during a press conference that if people who get the red light tickets didn't pay them, the Toledo police would be booting their cars and towing them. Toledo Chief of police Navarre responded publicly with "Yeah, we're not doing that. My officers have better things to do than enforce unconstitutional traffic cameras."
Every cop I know hates those traffic cameras. They believe they infringe on people's privacy and they make intersections unsafe. They will tell you that it's added more work to their job too as they're responding to increased accidents at those intersections.
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Hire out of state independent boards to watch over police departments with random investigations, drug/alcohol tests, background checks, etc.
Honestly, I love this idea.
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Another problem people have with cops is... isnt it pretty much a given that cops wont rat on each other, they universally hate their Internal Affairs department that roots out bad cops, they all circle the wagons when they have to, and when bad cops do bad things, isn't the rule of thumb "paid time off?"
People hate all that shit. You tell us that it's only a few bad apples, but when the entire barrel won't out the bad apples, the whole barrel is tainted.
People hate all that shit. You tell us that it's only a few bad apples, but when the entire barrel won't out the bad apples, the whole barrel is tainted.
You watch too many cop shows on TV. And honestly, that's part of the problem: perception. The whole IA vs other cops is mostly Hollywood bullshit.
Of course there are cops who won't arrest other cops, although note that there's a limit there. Just because one cop doesn't arrest another for DUI doesn't mean he won't arrest him for shoplifting, rape, etc.
And hell yes there are cops that arrest cops. Cops get arrested all the time for assaults, DUIs, etc. just like the rest of us.
Although, I'll readily point out that where cops do give each other breaks is in traffic violations. It's rare for a cop to give another cop a speeding ticket.
As for the "paid time off" thing, that's not exclusively a cop thing. That's more a government job thing. Don't forget that police departments are typically union. Besides, paid time off is typical while your shooting or whatever is under investigation. If there's punishment that isn't termination, then they get unpaid time off just like other government/union workers.
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One thing that has become pretty clear from comments I'm seeing and hearing (at work and elsewhere, not hear) is that the police are in a no-win situation here.
Basically, yes.
Malcolm, I didn't read your post. I apologize, but even before your trip to Iowa you were irrational in your hatred of cops. I'm sure your recent experience has done nothing but make your attitude worse. I honestly considered it, but I just kept thinking it'd be like trying to convince Fred Phelps that homosexuals aren't that bad.
Perhaps you posted something of an apology yourself regarding wishing death upon my friends and family, and you then just wanted to debate good cops/bad cops/our perception of them, etc. like the rest of us, I don't know. Perhaps you go on a tirade wishing horrible things upon me because I dare take a stance other than "all cops must die". Again, I don't know.
I just thought it best to avoid your comments.
Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 25 2014,08:11
Irrational would be holding those opinions without ever having met a cop. When every one I meet in every situation seems to confirm them, I start making generalizations.
Posted by TPRJones on Aug. 28 2014,16:05
QUOTE
So is being Catholic or a Democrat, and since a person can be bigoted against them...
I would disagree with that as well. It is perfectly okay to judge someone because of their beliefs. You aren't born with beliefs.
Now I'd also say that it isn't usually entirely that person's fault because their parents probably brainwashed them into those beliefs. That's the most common way in which the diseases of religion and party politics is spread. But they still have the choice to drop those beliefs and be rational, so pre-judging them based on those beliefs is not bigotry.
Posted by thibodeaux on Oct. 07 2014,17:25
< Best. Retraction. Ever. >In the freaking headline:
QUOTE
3,000 in Ferguson Have Registered to Vote Since Michael Brown Died (UPDATE: This Is Completely False)
Posted by TheCatt on Oct. 22 2014,07:00
< Autopsy report >QUOTE
Report: Autopsy Suggests Michael Brown Reached for Ferguson Officer's Gun
The official autopsy on Michael Brown, leaked to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, suggests that he was shot in the hand at close range and may have reached for the police officer’s gun, outside experts told the newspaper.
That would contradict what private experts reported after they conducted an autopsy for Brown’s family. Those experts said there were no signs of a struggle between Brown and Officer Darren Wilson, who shot him to death Aug. 9 in the suburb of Ferguson.
A supplemental examination in the official autopsy published by the Post-Dispatch found material “consistent with products that are discharged from the barrel of a firearm” in Brown’s right hand.
Dr. Judy Melinek, a forensic pathologist not involved in the autopsy, told the newspaper that the finding “supports the fact that this guy is reaching for the gun, if he has gunpowder particulate material in the wound.” Melinek also told the newspaper that the autopsy did not support witness accounts that the fatal shot, later, was fired while Brown was running away from the officer or had his hands up.
The Post-Dispatch also reported Wednesday, citing an unnamed source with knowledge of the matter, that Wilson has told investigators that Brown pressed the barrel of the gun against Wilson’s hip during a struggle inside the officer’s SUV.
The official autopsy on Michael Brown, leaked to the St. Louis Post-Dispatch, suggests that he was shot in the hand at close range and may have reached for the police officer’s gun, outside experts told the newspaper.
That would contradict what private experts reported after they conducted an autopsy for Brown’s family. Those experts said there were no signs of a struggle between Brown and Officer Darren Wilson, who shot him to death Aug. 9 in the suburb of Ferguson.
A supplemental examination in the official autopsy published by the Post-Dispatch found material “consistent with products that are discharged from the barrel of a firearm” in Brown’s right hand.
Dr. Judy Melinek, a forensic pathologist not involved in the autopsy, told the newspaper that the finding “supports the fact that this guy is reaching for the gun, if he has gunpowder particulate material in the wound.” Melinek also told the newspaper that the autopsy did not support witness accounts that the fatal shot, later, was fired while Brown was running away from the officer or had his hands up.
The Post-Dispatch also reported Wednesday, citing an unnamed source with knowledge of the matter, that Wilson has told investigators that Brown pressed the barrel of the gun against Wilson’s hip during a struggle inside the officer’s SUV.
Posted by Vince on Oct. 22 2014,10:28
Yeah, I think the riots are just getting going up there.
Posted by TheCatt on Nov. 24 2014,15:20
We should have taken bets on indictment.Based on facts I have heard/read, I say no indictment.
Posted by GORDON on Nov. 24 2014,15:25
I would have bet on no indictment.Then riots.
Posted by Vince on Nov. 24 2014,16:22
(GORDON @ Nov. 24 2014,17:25)
QUOTE
I would have bet on no indictment.
Then riots.
Then riots.
This
Posted by Troy on Nov. 24 2014,16:32
the media sure isn't gearing up like it will be a love-festi think we can all guess what the grand jury said, especially since they gave them a head start
Posted by TheCatt on Nov. 24 2014,18:47
< No indictment. >
Posted by GORDON on Nov. 24 2014,19:10
My wife has a lady cop friend who posted a facebook pic recently...It was some cops dressed up like commandos, with the text, "Cops can stop dressing like this, when..."
Then there was a picture from some 80's action movie of the Crips with AK-47s and Uzis and the text, "... when criminals stop dressing like this."
And it is just so stupid I wish I could unfriend her all over again like I did 3 years ago.
Cops need to stop gearing up for war, and shit like Ferguson, and < killing unarmed 12yo kids in parks can stop happening. >
Posted by Malcolm on Nov. 24 2014,20:04
Too bad cops can't tell the difference between AK-toting gang members and family dogs.
Posted by GORDON on Nov. 25 2014,05:26
A Legacy of LiberalismThe current problems facing blacks in America owe more to the Great Society than to slavery.
< http://www.nationalreview.com/article....-sowell >
QUOTE
upreme Court Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes said there were “phrases that serve as an excuse for not thinking.” One of these phrases that substitute for thought today is one that depicts the current problems of blacks in America as “a legacy of slavery.”
...
Despite the grand myth that black economic progress began or accelerated with the passage of the Civil Rights laws and “War on Poverty” programs of the 1960s, the cold fact is that the poverty rate among blacks fell from 87 percent in 1940 to 47 percent by 1960. This was before any of those programs began.
Over the next 20 years, the poverty rate among blacks fell another 18 percentage points, compared to the 40-point drop in the previous 20 years. This was the continuation of a previous economic trend, at a slower rate of progress, not the economic grand deliverance proclaimed by liberals and self-serving black “leaders.”
Ending the Jim Crow laws was a landmark achievement. But, despite the great proliferation of black political and other “leaders” that resulted from the laws and policies of the 1960s, nothing comparable happened economically. And there were serious retrogressions socially.
Nearly a hundred years of the supposed “legacy of slavery” found most black children being raised in two-parent families in 1960. But thirty years after the liberal welfare state found the great majority of black children being raised by a single parent.
...
Despite the grand myth that black economic progress began or accelerated with the passage of the Civil Rights laws and “War on Poverty” programs of the 1960s, the cold fact is that the poverty rate among blacks fell from 87 percent in 1940 to 47 percent by 1960. This was before any of those programs began.
Over the next 20 years, the poverty rate among blacks fell another 18 percentage points, compared to the 40-point drop in the previous 20 years. This was the continuation of a previous economic trend, at a slower rate of progress, not the economic grand deliverance proclaimed by liberals and self-serving black “leaders.”
Ending the Jim Crow laws was a landmark achievement. But, despite the great proliferation of black political and other “leaders” that resulted from the laws and policies of the 1960s, nothing comparable happened economically. And there were serious retrogressions socially.
Nearly a hundred years of the supposed “legacy of slavery” found most black children being raised in two-parent families in 1960. But thirty years after the liberal welfare state found the great majority of black children being raised by a single parent.
And if you disagree then you're racist because the author is black.
Posted by Malcolm on Nov. 25 2014,07:51
Except for those < minor suffrage issues > in the 50-60s.
Posted by TheCatt on Nov. 25 2014,07:52
< Cop's perspective on what happened. >
Posted by Vince on Nov. 25 2014,08:00
Cops don't need paramilitary gear. That's why the gov gets to call up the National Guard. Plus, when he does that it let's everyone know there's a police state sort of action going on and should be a flag for everyone to decide if it's warranted. Local cops in paramilitary garb (intentional or not) is conditioning us to see our communities under a police state as the norm.National guard being called up in this case is warranted. People that burn down their own neighborhoods in protest are short sighted.
Posted by Leisher on Dec. 01 2014,12:15
< White guy murdered by minorities there. Nobody in the MSM seems to care. >
Posted by Leisher on Dec. 02 2014,13:33
< Dude goes OFF on MSNBC about the MSM's handling of Michael Brown and other incidents. >He makes some great points. Look how disgusted the woman next to him is because he's going off script.
This is like going to a KKK rally and saying black people aren't all bad or a Black Panthers meeting and saying white people probably aren't the root cause of all evil.
Posted by TheCatt on Dec. 05 2014,01:22
Posted by Leisher on Dec. 05 2014,10:25
I read yesterday that black people in Ferguson are attempting a boycott of white businesses. Because nothing solves racism like more racism.