Thunderdome 2015 » Printable Version of Topic

Forum: Internet Links
Topic: One Laptop Per Child
started by: thibodeaux

Posted by thibodeaux on Aug. 04 2014,08:25

< http://www.wnyc.org/story....laptops >

Posted by GORDON on Aug. 04 2014,08:38

I've never understood the main argument for projects like this: "Our students will fall behind in technology if we don't!" What does that even mean? What do they think kids in rich school systems are doing with tech? Hint: it rhymes with Shmarmville. Current adults have had no problem adopting tech as it was invented. Kids in the past haven't needed tech to learn. These people are stupid and shouldn't be in the education business.

Posted by Leisher on Aug. 04 2014,09:14

Macs were the primary computers used in schools for a long time. Peeps turned out ok in a Windows world.

If parents want their kids to use PCs in school, tell them to buy the PC. That way they're responsible for them, not the system.

For the inevitable people who will claim they can't afford PCs (like folks who can't afford to have an ID), work with local businesses to get them donate old equipment, which you can then sell to underprivileged kids at a substantial discount. (I hold an annual employees only sale each year for 3-4 year old equipment we're done using. We routinely sell laptops anywhere from $25-$175 and desktops from $10-$75.)

Then you can offer computer classes.

Posted by TheCatt on Aug. 04 2014,09:16

It's really about implementing individualized learning plans, taking away the serialization of instructor led learning. < Mooresville, NC > has done well at it. The positives are there, but it certainly takes more than just buying laptops to make it work

Posted by Vince on Aug. 04 2014,10:18

(GORDON @ Aug. 04 2014,10:38)

QUOTE

Computers and the Internet are great for research. Research is not education. I suspect the people that proposed these programs didn't grasp the difference.

Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 04 2014,10:32

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Current adults have had no problem adopting tech as it was invented.

Bullshit. If this were true, we'd all be voting online by now.

QUOTE

Kids in the past haven't needed tech to learn.

Again, bullshit. Or were your parents up in arms when you got to use a calculator instead of a slide rule instead of estimating logarithms by hand?

QUOTE

Computers and the Internet are great for research. Research is not education.

Used properly, they're fantastic educational tools. And their potential is huge in that area. Simply handing off a laptop and expecting it to work magic is a special kind of stupid, though.

Posted by GORDON on Aug. 04 2014,10:34

You saying bullshit is bullshit.

Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 04 2014,10:37

(GORDON @ Aug. 04 2014,12:34)

QUOTE

You saying bullshit is bullshit.

Adults do not adapt to new technology terribly well. Period.

1) VCR displays and flashing lights ... how many fucking jokes are there?

2) Every time someone opens an attachment from an email written in a foreign language, then runs it on their box.

3) The elderly and tech-hopeless adults of the world are the reason tech support has to ask if your power supply and monitor are switched on.

4) Most adults I know still aren't aware of correct maintenance procedures for their cars which is a tech that's been around how fucking long now?

I could go on, but I'll stop beating the old, dead horse.

Posted by GORDON on Aug. 04 2014,11:08

SO you're looking at the below-average of the population and applying it to the whole? ALl I have to say is smartphones are probably the most popular tech on earth, and the people buying them most likely weren't given laptops in school. There are still below-average students. Throwing a laptop at them, even with a curriculum, isn't going to help make them not be below average.

And suggesting the insecurity of online voting is indicative of anything is... something. Not applicable to this conversation.

I didn't touch a computer until I was 13, a TRS-80 model III. I didn't own one until I was 16, a C64. I didn't actually learn how to write serious code on one until I was about 24, until then they were toys.

Kids don't need tech to not fall behind, they need something a lot more fundamental... the ability to think, and a firm hand to guide them through their formative years. Very few are born knowing how to act like adults, and laptops aren't teaching them that, either.

Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 04 2014,11:11

Most adults I know can't act like adults.

QUOTE

I didn't touch a computer until I was 13, a TRS-80 model III. I didn't own one until I was 16, a C64. I didn't actually learn how to write serious code on one until I was about 24, until then they were toys.

K. I had one when I was 4. It molded my brain more than a bit.

QUOTE

Kids don't need tech to not fall behind, they need something a lot more fundamental... the ability to think...

Which was aided by my machine usage.

Posted by GORDON on Aug. 04 2014,11:13

(Malcolm @ Aug. 04 2014,14:11)

QUOTE

K. I had one when I was 4. It molded my brain more than a bit.

I think I speak for everyone here when I say none of us would have ever guessed you were better at speaking to machines than to humans.

:-D

Posted by TheCatt on Aug. 04 2014,11:26

I'm with Malcolm. The machines are a tool to be used for purposes, one of which can be education. A lot of education is accumulation of information, facts, and principles (addition, subtraction, etc). Computers can do this, and do it at the rate of a person's learning much better than a teacher can. Especially since that teacher has 20-30 other students to worry about.

The people who started writing code in their single-digit or teen years almost certainly will surpass those who didn't until later, but that's a specific skill. Technology is important. Or else, we'd still be using pencils and paper for everything. Not even slide rulers or calculators, right?

Posted by GORDON on Aug. 04 2014,11:32

And I will disagree. The old dudes who invented computer and programming languages in the 1960's had 2 things in common: they weren't raised on it, and they had no problem using it as adults. Smart people will be smart no matter what, and stupid people will be stupid. Upbringing is important, and laptops are not a substitute for that nor are they a "win" switch. In fact, I will pull a guess out of my ass and say dong what the district did in TFA did way more harm than good.

Yeah, they are a tool just like pencils, but pencils never gave you access to facebook and porn and pedo predators and cyber bullying and infinite hours of time wasting and distracting software.

Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 04 2014,11:48

QUOTE

Yeah, they are a tool just like pencils, but pencils never gave you access to facebook and porn and pedo predators and cyber bullying and infinite hours of time wasting and distracting software.

Are you shitfucking me? All the hours of wasted time writing graffiti on various walls in various cities since the dawn of pictographic languages...

Christ, the first time someone captured knowledge in physical form, probably on a rock with natural pigments, I'm sure the old shaman in charge of oral tradition was mortified.

QUOTE

Smart people will be smart no matter what, and stupid people will be stupid.

There are different types of stupid. There's:

1) Too stupid to remember your phone number.
2) Too stupid to figure out how to work a phone.

At least one of those things will be alleviated by a laptop.

In a more practical sense, scheduling software beats having a personal secretary to keep your appointments in order.

Posted by GORDON on Aug. 04 2014,11:59

Yes, the problem in failing schools is lack of laptops and scheduling software.

Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 04 2014,12:00

(GORDON @ Aug. 04 2014,13:59)

QUOTE

Yes, the problem in failing schools is lack of laptops and scheduling software.

No, the point is that having a laptop to schedule your appointments make you look less "stupid" because you're not apt to forget them. Technology remembers it for you and reminds you to do shit.

Posted by Vince on Aug. 04 2014,12:09

(TheCatt @ Aug. 04 2014,13:26)

QUOTE

The people who started writing code in their single-digit or teen years almost certainly will surpass those who didn't until later, but that's a specific skill. Technology is important. Or else, we'd still be using pencils and paper for everything. Not even slide rulers or calculators, right?

We were allowed to use calculators only after we'd mastered it with pencil and paper. And really then only to allow you to spend less time on the basics while solving more complex problems.

We are probably decades away from being able to actually have computers "teach". Computers can be great helping a child along with concepts they pretty much understand, and allow them to learn it at their own pace. But a computer can't (at this point) look at a child's face when you ask them a question and see that really don't have a clue. Even if they can give you the correct answer, sometimes you can look at them and tell that they really aren't getting it yet.

A machine can't tell you haven't had that "ah-ha!" moment. And honestly, it's the "ah-ha" moments that make you want to continue to learn.

Posted by GORDON on Aug. 04 2014,12:12

(Malcolm @ Aug. 04 2014,15:00)

QUOTE

(GORDON @ Aug. 04 2014,13:59)

QUOTE

Yes, the problem in failing schools is lack of laptops and scheduling software.

No, the point is that having a laptop to schedule your appointments make you look less "stupid" because you're not apt to forget them. Technology remembers it for you and reminds you to do shit.

So, the computer does what a parent should do?

Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 04 2014,12:17

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We were allowed to use calculators only after we'd mastered it with pencil and paper. And really then only to allow you to spend less time on the basics while solving more complex problems.

Fine.

QUOTE

We are probably decades away from being able to actually have computers "teach".

They teach right now. I learned all kinds of shit about pathfinding methods after years of drawing maps on graph paper.

QUOTE

So, the computer does what a parent should do?

Goddamnit, I'm talking about your average adult human being. Years ago, we figured out keeping all that shit in our heads was a bad idea. Then some genius got the idea to write down his schedule on paper. Google Calendar is the logical evolution of that sort of thing. It's got functionality not available in Looseleaf Paper 1.0.

Here's what happens when you try to < cram seven dimensions into two using just paper >. Would be awesome if I had some kind of dynamic display that would hide one or two so I could focus on the others.

Posted by GORDON on Aug. 04 2014,12:23

(Malcolm @ Aug. 04 2014,15:17)

QUOTE

So, the computer does what a parent should do?

Goddamnit, I'm talking about your average adult human being.

Goddamit, this entire thread has been about children being given laptops and whether or not it is worthwhile.

Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 04 2014,12:25

(GORDON @ Aug. 04 2014,14:23)

QUOTE

(Malcolm @ Aug. 04 2014,15:17)

QUOTE

So, the computer does what a parent should do?

Goddamnit, I'm talking about your average adult human being.

Goddamit, this entire thread has been about children being given laptops and whether or not it is worthwhile.

Fine, we'll go with the children theme. I guess all those parental locks on your cable TV box is just Comcast trying to make you a lazier, less effective parent?

Posted by GORDON on Aug. 04 2014,12:25

Yes. Exactly right. You've cracked it.

Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 04 2014,12:28

Machines exist because I don't want to do more work than I have to. If they can handle some parenting, all the better. Timelocks on the cookie jars or some shit.

Posted by TheCatt on Aug. 04 2014,13:07

(GORDON @ Aug. 04 2014,14:32)

QUOTE

That works great for the 1% of the 1% of the 1%.

This isn't about a substitute, this is about addition.

Posted by TheCatt on Aug. 04 2014,13:08

At this point, I've given up on people over 40. They. Just. Don't. Get. It.

Posted by TPRJones on Aug. 04 2014,13:36

I'm with Malcolm.

Where I work I am a god. The Provost of the campus has apparently said many times that he only fears two things: getting a flat tire on top of the Beltway 8 bridge and that I might decide to quit. I mostly surf the web all day and read these forums. But I also know how the magic desk boxes work and know a few simple tricks that lets me get meaningful data out of them in a format that old people (over the age of 40) can understand.

My entire career exists only because Malcolm is right on this one. I started programming in Fortran on punch cards at the age of 5. I grew up with tech and I know it like few people my age or older do. At best some of the other old people may have a few things they've learned to stumble their way through, but very rare is the old person that actually really understands it.

Even given all that I know nothing next to the average tech-experienced teenager when it comes to smartphones and tablets and other things more modern than a PC. Growing up with it makes a huge difference in how well you understand it.

Posted by Vince on Aug. 04 2014,14:56

I think this is getting pulled into two different arguments. Are computers a great teaching aid and are older people less proficient with new tech.

We recently got a new (to us) on call phone. It's a Blackberry. I'm going to hand it to one of our younger guys to get the email set up on it. Not because I can't. I set up the company email on my last smart phone in about 2 minutes max. But I find I have lost the desire to learn new tech simply because I like learning new tech. I used to want to do crap like that just because. Hell, I set up a native Linux email server about 10 years ago just to do it. I did it and it sucked, but I got off on doing something like that with the tech.

Now I'd rather let the young guy that still gets off on learning something he'll probably never use again get off on setting up the department email on the phone. While he's doing that I'll read up on good ways to set 330 conibears underwater for beaver trapping.

Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 04 2014,15:02

QUOTE

Are computers a great teaching aid and are older people less proficient with new tech.

The answer seems to be "yes" in either case.

Posted by Vince on Aug. 04 2014,15:11

No (not "great" teaching tools) and "somewhat".

Posted by TPRJones on Aug. 04 2014,15:19

The quality of a computer as a teaching tool is very heavily dependent on the quality of the software in question and the skill and ingenuity of the lesson planner. It's not a "just set them down and do something else while they learn" teaching tool, no. But as an example Minecraft in the right teacher's hands is a remarkable tool for teaching young children everything from cooperation to planning for the future to creative architecture.

Once it goes live and gets into the hands of young kids, Kerbal Space Program is going to single-handedly revive our space science initiatives and give a new generation of rocket nerds a better gut understanding of orbital mechanics unmatched by anyone that hasn't personally been in orbit.

Note that all my examples are games. Games are the best teaching tools on a computer. Interactivity is key. No one really learns anything from sites like Wikipedia.

Posted by TheCatt on Aug. 04 2014,15:35

What TPR said.

There needs to be a teacher, or sufficiently autonomous and intelligent AI, to guide the student, handle some level of interactions or concept explaining, but most of the testing, quizzing, and learning can be done via technology. I've seen it with my own kids, already. I can be there to help on difficult things, and the computer can adapt the learning to the level of the student.

Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 04 2014,16:23

QUOTE

Interactivity is key. No one really learns anything from sites like Wikipedia.

I somewhat disagree. I've learned much with flashcards or less. Granted "learned" = "memorized" which may or may not agree with your definitions.

QUOTE

Games are the best teaching tools on a computer.

Here we are. Games are some of the best teaching tools, period. For that reason and that reason alone, I'll say the potential of superior technology gives computers at least a "great" on the teaching scale. I'm sure you can get along fine with chalk and slate and have a perfectly good learning experience, just like you can program with 64K of RAM and have a perfectly good gaming experience. But really though, don't you like having a few gigs of RAM instead? Can't you pull off more impressive shit?

Posted by TPRJones on Aug. 04 2014,16:39

CODE

Granted "learned" = "memorized" which may or may not agree with your definitions.

It doesn't. When I talk of learning I mean that gut-level understanding of a system or a process or what have you that comes from experience. You can't get all the way there from anything but actual long term practice, but learning should give you the seeds of that sort of understanding. If it's something you can answer relatively easily with google, then knowing that isn't what I would consider learning.

There's little point in memorizing your reference material in most cases in the real world.

Posted by TheCatt on Aug. 04 2014,18:09

(TPRJones @ Aug. 04 2014,19:39)

QUOTE

There's little point in memorizing your reference material in most cases in the real world.

Medicine.

Posted by Vince on Aug. 04 2014,18:13

(TheCatt @ Aug. 04 2014,17:35)

QUOTE

There needs to be a teacher, or sufficiently autonomous and intelligent AI, to guide the student, handle some level of interactions or concept explaining...

The irony is once we reach that level of AI, what will be the point of education? All we'll be needed for is the manual labor.

Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 04 2014,18:33

(Vince @ Aug. 04 2014,20:13)

QUOTE

(TheCatt @ Aug. 04 2014,17:35)

QUOTE

There needs to be a teacher, or sufficiently autonomous and intelligent AI, to guide the student, handle some level of interactions or concept explaining...

The irony is once we reach that level of AI, what will be the point of education? All we'll be needed for is the manual labor.

After we develop that level of AI, we'll need education to combat the newly produced robot army trying to render us extinct.

Posted by Vince on Aug. 04 2014,18:59

There will be no army trying to render us extinct. The AI will simply hold the digital world hostage. Businesses would lose billions every hour unable to run debit and credit transactions. Electronic trading on Wall Street drops. Stores can't place their orders for new goods.

It'll be really sad.

Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 05 2014,07:26

(Vince @ Aug. 04 2014,20:59)

QUOTE

Much like Lawnmower Man 2.

Posted by Vince on Aug. 05 2014,08:02

Did they do it like that? I don't even know if I've seen that one. Would have hit VHS during my drinking days. So I may have seen it. May have not. Definitely saw the first one.

Posted by TheCatt on Aug. 07 2014,11:55

(TheCatt @ Aug. 04 2014,16:08)

QUOTE

At this point, I've given up on people over 40. They. Just. Don't. Get. It.

< I was right. >

QUOTE

Six-year-olds show more knowledge of technology than a 45-year-old,

Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 07 2014,11:59

QUOTE

“Children and teenagers are the most digitally-savvy,” says Ed Richards, Ofcom’s chief executive.

Eh ... depends how you measure "savvy." < Everyone > seems equally clueless in certain areas.

Posted by Vince on Aug. 07 2014,14:43

(TheCatt @ Aug. 07 2014,13:55)

QUOTE

Six-year-olds show more knowledge of technology than a 45-year-old,

I'll buy that. I also bet that less than 20% of them know eggs come out of a chicken's butt.

Posted by GORDON on Aug. 07 2014,15:02

I bet I could kick the ass of any of those genius six year olds.

Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 07 2014,15:09

(Vince @ Aug. 07 2014,16:43)

QUOTE

(TheCatt @ Aug. 07 2014,13:55)

QUOTE

Six-year-olds show more knowledge of technology than a 45-year-old,

I'll buy that. I also bet that less than 20% of them know eggs come out of a chicken's butt.

I bet they can get to that info on wikipedia.

Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 07 2014,15:29

(GORDON @ Aug. 07 2014,17:02)

QUOTE

I bet I could kick the ass of any of those genius six year olds.

Says the man that gets slipped mickeys by his nieces.

Posted by Vince on Aug. 07 2014,16:09

(Malcolm @ Aug. 07 2014,17:09)

QUOTE

(Vince @ Aug. 07 2014,16:43)

QUOTE

(TheCatt @ Aug. 07 2014,13:55)

QUOTE

Six-year-olds show more knowledge of technology than a 45-year-old,

I'll buy that. I also bet that less than 20% of them know eggs come out of a chicken's butt.

I bet they can get to that info on wikipedia.

Until the EMP hits. Then they die.

Posted by Malcolm on Aug. 07 2014,20:57

You think they'll be hooked to medical machines instead of you when that happens?

Posted by GORDON on Aug. 07 2014,21:35

(Malcolm @ Aug. 07 2014,18:29)

QUOTE

(GORDON @ Aug. 07 2014,17:02)

QUOTE

I bet I could kick the ass of any of those genius six year olds.

Says the man that gets slipped mickeys by his nieces.

Kick their asses too.