Topic: study lies to graduates
started by: Malcolm
Posted by Malcolm on Jun. 24 2014,09:58
< Bullshit >.
Posted by TheCatt on Jun. 25 2014,05:28
QUOTE
Strangely, student loan debt, which amounts to about $1tn in the US, is something the New York Fed report authors chose not to incorporate into their analysis on the rate of return of an education.
There are a few other factors in the cost of an education that the authors omitted.
Not only did the report not incorporate student debt, but the tuition estimates used in the analysis are the net tuition costs, which don't include room and board.
There are a few other factors in the cost of an education that the authors omitted.
Not only did the report not incorporate student debt, but the tuition estimates used in the analysis are the net tuition costs, which don't include room and board.
Wut?
At any rate... I'd basically agree with them, on aggregate. But there's a significant # for whom it's just a stupid idea.
Posted by Leisher on Jun. 25 2014,06:36
Considering the fact that most jobs require a college degree (even though you don't actually NEED one), I'd say they have to be correct about college graduates making more. However, it's a bullshit study that further enforces a bullshit system.
Engineers, doctors, lawyers, teachers, and a handful of other highly specialized jobs need "higher education".
The vast majority of the jobs in the history of mankind do not need a college degree to be completed.
(I don't count certifications or trade schools as "degrees" or college.)
Posted by TPRJones on Jun. 25 2014,07:30
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Considering the fact that most jobs require a college degree...
Nope. The majority do not. Factory jobs, janitorial, fast food, day labor, ditch digging, etc etc etc are the most common jobs. No degree required. Just sayin'.
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(I don't count certifications or trade schools as "degrees" or college.)
Depends on the certifcation. Some of them involve more instructional time than a four-year degree (like the commercial pilot cert). And some of the short ones can still get you a six-figure starting salary (like the underwater welding cert).
Posted by Leisher on Jun. 25 2014,08:06
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Nope. The majority do not. Factory jobs, janitorial, fast food, day labor, ditch digging, etc etc etc are the most common jobs. No degree required. Just sayin'.
My bad. I should have specified that I was thinking of career jobs, not service industry jobs.
QUOTE
Depends on the certifcation. Some of them involve more instructional time than a four-year degree (like the commercial pilot cert). And some of the short ones can still get you a six-figure starting salary (like the underwater welding cert).
I wouldn't consider those as part of the "college system" that I consider to be a huge problem.
Posted by TPRJones on Jun. 25 2014,08:12
Oh! I read your statement backwards. You weren't saying certs aren't as good as college, you were saying certs aren't part of the same problems that college has. Gotcha.
Posted by Leisher on Jun. 25 2014,08:22
Certs DO have issues, but not the same ones as colleges.
Posted by Vince on Jun. 26 2014,03:38
(Leisher @ Jun. 25 2014,10:06)
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QUOTE
Nope. The majority do not. Factory jobs, janitorial, fast food, day labor, ditch digging, etc etc etc are the most common jobs. No degree required. Just sayin'.
My bad. I should have specified that I was thinking of career jobs, not service industry jobs.
Considering how many people hold degrees outside of their career field, I'd say it's not just service industry. At least, it's not required to be able to DO the job. Maybe to GET the job.
As far as the earning potential with a degree, I have to wonder how much of that is because those that can't or don't get a degree just don't have as much earning potential in general due to other things?
Posted by Leisher on Jun. 26 2014,06:01
(Vince @ Jun. 26 2014,06:38)
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(Leisher @ Jun. 25 2014,10:06)
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QUOTE
Nope. The majority do not. Factory jobs, janitorial, fast food, day labor, ditch digging, etc etc etc are the most common jobs. No degree required. Just sayin'.
My bad. I should have specified that I was thinking of career jobs, not service industry jobs.
Considering how many people hold degrees outside of their career field, I'd say it's not just service industry. At least, it's not required to be able to DO the job. Maybe to GET the job.
As far as the earning potential with a degree, I have to wonder how much of that is because those that can't or don't get a degree just don't have as much earning potential in general due to other things?
Yeah, "getting" the job was my point. Almost every job these days (aside from service jobs) require a degree according to the job postings. However, does one really need a degree to "do" the job? In most cases, no. It's just HR people helping to continue a broken system.
Look no further than military service versus college. HR people will tell you that college on a resume is more important. They're full of shit.
College - Kid left home, partied, studied sometimes, and got taught theory about something.
Military - Kid left home, was taught discipline, got in shape, traveled, learned a skill, got years of experience in said skill, and learned to take and follow orders. It's not a contest.
Do you hire the person with no experience and who just spent four years drunk or the guy who spent four years actually doing the job?
Of course, that doesn't apply to every job, but I believe I made my point.
As for earning potential, if all career type jobs falsely require a degree, well fucking DUH, those with degrees have more earning potential.
Posted by Vince on Jun. 27 2014,05:18
I hear welders are in high demand and can make pretty good money as well.
Posted by TheCatt on Jun. 27 2014,06:38
I hear software engineers make a boatload more with nicer working conditions.< Welders don't make dick >
Posted by Vince on Jun. 27 2014,07:15
Yeah, too bad the jobs are going to Indians with visas. Read an article the other day where all the US staff of programmers were being laid off and actually training their replacements. Wish I could find it again. Read it within the last couple of weeks.I don't know about that chart, but my sister was talking to a construction guy in the Nashville area that said you can make 60k pretty easy in that area with experience. Hear-say, but for what it's worth.
Posted by Malcolm on Jun. 27 2014,07:17
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60k pretty easy in that area with experience
I can find IT jobs better than that up here all day, every day.
Posted by TPRJones on Jun. 27 2014,07:23
(TheCatt @ Jun. 27 2014,08:38)
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< Welders don't make dick >
Depends on where you are, and it also doesn't include the overtime. Down here in Houston they're in high demand; we've got a 100% placement rate out of our welding program with starting salaries officially ranging from $35k to $60k. In actual practice, though, they're also usually able to get 10 to 20 hours of overtime every week, which pushes the actual take home pay up substantially. Once you include that, our average graduating student is going to go into a job making just a bit shy of six figures.
Considering most of them we see here barely graduated high school and have parents working two jobs in the service industry just to make ends meet, that's pretty good.
Posted by GORDON on Jun. 27 2014,07:26
Yeah, round these parts it's the "boiler maker" union. The wife collects on a lot of them and she doesn't understand why they can make $120k a year and still not be able to afford their car and house payment.Oh yeah, it's because they go $30k in debt to the local video casinos, get several DUIs, and generally just aren't too bright.
Posted by TheCatt on Jun. 27 2014,10:27
(Malcolm @ Jun. 27 2014,10:17)
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QUOTE
60k pretty easy in that area with experience
I can find IT jobs better than that up here all day, every day.
Yeah, I can't imagine a good software engineer with a few years of experience who isn't making $100k.
Posted by TheCatt on Jun. 27 2014,10:27
(Vince @ Jun. 27 2014,10:15)
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Yeah, too bad the jobs are going to Indians with visas.
Actually, visas are pretty limited for those guys.
Posted by Vince on Jun. 28 2014,12:12
(TheCatt @ Jun. 27 2014,12:27)
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(Vince @ Jun. 27 2014,10:15)
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Yeah, too bad the jobs are going to Indians with visas.
Actually, visas are pretty limited for those guys.
For now. Zuckerburg is pushing hard to change that with Immigration reform. I'm really starting to hate that little prick's guts.
Posted by Vince on Jul. 07 2014,07:55
Apparently the visas aren't too limited.< Backlash stirs in US against foreign worker visas >
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They say Manpower, for example, last year posted U.S. job openings in India but not in the United States.
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 07 2014,08:41
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The argument has long been that there aren't enough qualified American workers to fill certain jobs, especially in science, engineering and technology.
Finding quality programmers is a bitch regardless of nationality. Shitty ones are a dime a dozen. If you're getting a shitty one anyway, why not get the cheapest one?
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 07 2014,12:38
I can't help but think most companies who don't give a shit would rather hire 3 shitty guys overseas for $19k each than 1 decent guy in the U.S. for $75k.If shitty tech workers need a salary reality check, fine. But I think the H1-Bs are overdone. Or is it H-1B? I can never remember.
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 07 2014,12:45
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I can't help but think most companies who don't give a shit would rather hire 3 shitty guys overseas for $19k each than 1 decent guy in the U.S. for $75k.
Are you one of the corporate execs where I work?
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 07 2014,12:52
I've spent enough time in giant corporate IT shops to recognize the practice.
Posted by TheCatt on Jul. 07 2014,12:55
(Vince @ Jun. 28 2014,15:12)
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(TheCatt @ Jun. 27 2014,12:27)
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(Vince @ Jun. 27 2014,10:15)
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Yeah, too bad the jobs are going to Indians with visas.
Actually, visas are pretty limited for those guys.
For now. Zuckerburg is pushing hard to change that with Immigration reform. I'm really starting to hate that little prick's guts.
One the one hand, I want immigration reform and think that allowing skilled labor into the country will certainly raise the country's GDP, growth rate, etc.
On the other hand, more programmers = less demand for programmers, and I'm a programmer.
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 07 2014,13:19
I stand by my original statement. Increasing the number of shitty to mediocre coders only makes me look better.
Posted by Vince on Jul. 07 2014,13:39
That's true as long as someone in the company recognizes that all coders are not created equal. For the number crunching firm like Gordo was talking about, I think they look at how many Indian workers they can get for the same amount of money.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 07 2014,13:42
Nearly 100% of the overseas code I had to unfuck was not documented, and used poor coding practices.But fuck it.... they can just hire 2 more overseas guys to unfuck it.
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 07 2014,13:52
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Nearly 100% of the overseas code I had to unfuck was not documented, and used poor coding practices.
Nearly 100% of the code I see is that way, overseas or otherwise.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 07 2014,13:57
Mine was always really good.
Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 07 2014,13:58
Everyone thinks their code is good.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 07 2014,14:00
Mine was, objectively and empirically, way above average.
Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 07 2014,14:02
(TPRJones @ Jul. 07 2014,15:58)
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Everyone thinks their code is good.
I didn't use to. Then I started paying more attention to the code from other dudes on my team and ones we were interviewing. The interview thing is stark. I would never have believed it, but there are two types -- those can code and those who can't. Period. It's not a halfway thing. I'd say at least 90% of the applicants we look at epically fail what should be ten-line programs. I'm talking shit that should be, if not second nature, not completely foreign. I've got two standard questions I give every interview candidate. They aren't difficult if you've got a legit two-year degree. I've yet to see one of the 90% bullshit their way through it, even though some look to have had the creds on paper to pull it off.
I consider them to be rather good indicators of filtering out the "you've got no hope" group from everyone else. If I've got that barometer, I'm thinking it's not a huge leap to suppose I've got one for quality.
I'll grant my code sucked for a few years, and it took some time to realize it sucked, how it sucked, and how to unsuckify it. But it sucks far less than back in the day. I don't know if it's "good" but it's been better than 90% of the people I've met through the professional or academic worlds. There are a few folk who currently work at MS in that demographic. Their programmers are outstanding. Their designers, architects, marketers, and managers all need regular whippings. But the programmers they hire are solid.
Posted by TheCatt on Jul. 07 2014,15:07
(TPRJones @ Jul. 07 2014,16:58)
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Everyone thinks their code is good.
No.
I think mine's awesome.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 07 2014,15:13
(TheCatt @ Jul. 07 2014,18:07)
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(TPRJones @ Jul. 07 2014,16:58)
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Everyone thinks their code is good.
No.
I think mine's awesome.
Me too but I didn't want to boast too much.
Posted by TheCatt on Jan. 07 2015,15:49
(TheCatt @ Jun. 27 2014,09:38)
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I hear software engineers make a boatload more with nicer working conditions.
< Welders don't make dick >
< Welders don't make dick >
< Or maybe they do? >
QUOTE
HOUSTON— Justin Friend ’s parents have doctoral degrees and have worked as university lecturers and researchers. So Mr. Friend might have been expected to head for a university after graduating from high school in Bryan, Texas, five years ago.
Instead, he attended Texas State Technical College in Waco, and received a two-year degree in welding. In 2013, his first full year as a welder, his income was about $130,000, more than triple the average annual wages for welders in the U.S. In 2014, Mr. Friend’s income rose to about $140,000.
That has allowed the 24-year-old to buy a $53,000 Ford F-250 pickup truck, invest in mutual funds and dabble in his hobbies, such as making jet engines, including one he attached to a golf cart.
“Not everybody needs a four-year college degree,” said Kathryn Vaughan, his mother, a retired biology lecturer who spent part of her career at Texas A&M University.
Instead, he attended Texas State Technical College in Waco, and received a two-year degree in welding. In 2013, his first full year as a welder, his income was about $130,000, more than triple the average annual wages for welders in the U.S. In 2014, Mr. Friend’s income rose to about $140,000.
That has allowed the 24-year-old to buy a $53,000 Ford F-250 pickup truck, invest in mutual funds and dabble in his hobbies, such as making jet engines, including one he attached to a golf cart.
“Not everybody needs a four-year college degree,” said Kathryn Vaughan, his mother, a retired biology lecturer who spent part of her career at Texas A&M University.
Posted by Vince on Jan. 07 2015,18:42
My burden... being right so much of the time ;-)
Posted by TheCatt on Jan. 07 2015,19:13
(Vince @ Jan. 07 2015,21:42)
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My burden... being right so much of the time ;-)
To be fair, he works the equivalent of two jobs:
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Mr. Friend, who is single, typically works 72 hours a week, usually including at least one day of the weekend, often on an overnight shift. His base pay is more than $25 an hour, up from about $22 when he started in 2012. He gets overtime after 40 hours a week. Pay is doubled on Sundays and tripled on holidays. He receives health insurance, a 401k retirement plan and paid vacation.
Posted by Malcolm on Jan. 07 2015,21:18
Fuck. Triple holiday pay?
Posted by Vince on Jan. 08 2015,03:38
(TheCatt @ Jan. 07 2015,21:13)
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To be fair, he works the equivalent of two jobs:
One of those things that's a lot easier at 24, for sure!
Posted by TPRJones on Jan. 08 2015,13:59
Yeah, our welding program has grown to several hundred students and for the past three years has had a 100% placement rate for graduates. Their average starting salaries for their first year after graduation are being reported as around $90k (including overtime).The Port of Houston and the oil industry down here just can't get enough welders.
Posted by Malcolm on Jan. 08 2015,14:24
Sounds like IT jobs circa 1999.
Posted by TheCatt on Jan. 08 2015,15:32
(Malcolm @ Jan. 08 2015,17:24)
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Sounds like IT jobs circa 1999.
We'll find out soon, with the oil bubble that just popped.
Posted by TheCatt on Jan. 08 2015,17:29
< Obama wants to make 2 years of community college free. >Federal government will pay 75%, states pay 25%.
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What students have to do: Students must attend community college at least half-time, maintain a 2.5 GPA, and make steady progress toward completing their program.
What community colleges have to do: Community colleges will be expected to offer programs that are either 1) academic programs that fully transfer credits to local public four-year colleges and universities, or 2) occupational training programs with high graduation rates and lead to in-demand degrees and certificates. Community colleges must also adopt promising and evidence-based institutional reforms to improve student outcomes.
What the federal government has to do: Federal funding will cover three-quarters of the average cost of community college. Participating states will be expected to contribute the remaining funds necessary to eliminate the tuition for eligible students.
What community colleges have to do: Community colleges will be expected to offer programs that are either 1) academic programs that fully transfer credits to local public four-year colleges and universities, or 2) occupational training programs with high graduation rates and lead to in-demand degrees and certificates. Community colleges must also adopt promising and evidence-based institutional reforms to improve student outcomes.
What the federal government has to do: Federal funding will cover three-quarters of the average cost of community college. Participating states will be expected to contribute the remaining funds necessary to eliminate the tuition for eligible students.
Posted by GORDON on Jan. 08 2015,17:31
Damn, wish I still had GI Bill eligibility. I'd be rich.
Posted by GORDON on Jan. 08 2015,17:39
And why doesn't he just make it an executive order? If he really wanted to do it, he'd do it, and let the republican congress be the bad guys by stopping it.
Posted by TPRJones on Jan. 08 2015,18:42
Executive orders don't include funding.
Posted by Malcolm on Jan. 08 2015,19:29
A 2.5? Wow.Think most people can hack that?
Posted by TPRJones on Jan. 08 2015,19:35
If the counselors stop trying to shove everyone into academic programs and give information on technical programs to the students that need to hear about them, then yes. That's entirely possible.As things stand now? Not a chance. Around 1/4 of students do that well.
Posted by Vince on Jan. 09 2015,07:05
This will turn out well. Take the cost controls of affordability off completely see what happens. Things like this make me question if they're just stupid or actually trying to massively screw things up?
Posted by TheCatt on Jan. 09 2015,07:21
(Vince @ Jan. 09 2015,10:05)
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This will turn out well. Take the cost controls of affordability off completely see what happens. Things like this make me question if they're just stupid or actually trying to massively screw things up?
If it's between subsidizing normal college, and community college, then I'm all for this. And if it keeps those $40k/year loan people from racking up those loans and instead being in CC, I'm all for it.
Honestly, I'm generally for subsidizing useful education overall.
Posted by TheCatt on Jan. 09 2015,07:23
Whoever wrote this article headline might have needed more critical thinking in his/her education:
Posted by TPRJones on Jan. 09 2015,08:02
At this point with Pell grants being so common, it's essentially free CC for everyone that wants it anyway. The proposed change will be pretty minimal.
Posted by GORDON on Jan. 09 2015,08:15
If you do 4 years in the military, get the GI Bill, and get an honorable discharge, it is essentially 4 free years of college, after. Was $1500 a month of free money, last time I looked at it.
Posted by Vince on Jan. 09 2015,10:40
(TheCatt @ Jan. 09 2015,09:21)
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And if it keeps those $40k/year loan people from racking up those loans and instead being in CC, I'm all for it.
Instead, with the added inefficiency of the federal government added in, it'll be $60k/year of federal debt (ie, all of our debt) per person rather than $40k for the individual.
I just think the free money will being the CC up to the same level of waste as other colleges rather than helping.
I think I'd too beat down to be optimistic about anything the government wants to do.
The feds will always make a bad situation worse. Always.
Posted by TheCatt on Jan. 09 2015,11:01
(Vince @ Jan. 09 2015,13:40)
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(TheCatt @ Jan. 09 2015,09:21)
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And if it keeps those $40k/year loan people from racking up those loans and instead being in CC, I'm all for it.
Instead, with the added inefficiency of the federal government added in, it'll be $60k/year of federal debt (ie, all of our debt) per person rather than $40k for the individual.
I just think the free money will being the CC up to the same level of waste as other colleges rather than helping.
I think I'd too beat down to be optimistic about anything the government wants to do.
The feds will always make a bad situation worse. Always.
The article says $3,900 a year cost of CC.
Yes, it could make CC more inefficient, but it would take years for it to be as bad as college.
Posted by TPRJones on Jan. 09 2015,12:14
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I just think the free money will being the CC up to the same level of waste as other colleges...
Heh. You think community colleges are more efficient and less wasteful than the four-year schools. That's adorable.