Thunderdome 2015 » Printable Version of Topic

Forum: Internet Links
Topic: Monogamy Envy
started by: GORDON

Posted by GORDON on May 09 2014,12:16

I read the entire article, enjoying the wit and the points the author was making, then I saw at the end it was James Lileks, who I already liked reading. So cool.

May offend the lifetime single people.

< http://www.nationalreview.com/article....-lileks >

Posted by Malcolm on May 09 2014,13:29

QUOTE

"So, what you are saying is that ninety to ninety-five percent of the population is undateable?"

"Undateable!"

"Then how are all these people getting together?"

"Alcohol."

QUOTE

Most of you will *never* fall in love, but will marry out of fear of dying alone!

Most marriages I've seen are done out of fear or idiocy.

Posted by TPRJones on May 12 2014,08:58

(GORDON @ May 09 2014,14:16)

QUOTE

May offend the lifetime single people.

I can't begin to see how. "May offend absentee fathers" I could understand. But this comment honestly mystifies me.

The actual effect of the article was to reinforce that I'm glad I don't have children taking up all my free time.

Posted by GORDON on May 12 2014,10:18

(TPRJones @ May 12 2014,11:58)

QUOTE

(GORDON @ May 09 2014,14:16)

QUOTE

May offend the lifetime single people.

I can't begin to see how. "May offend absentee fathers" I could understand. But this comment honestly mystifies me.

Are you saying you have not ever been exposed to people who are nearly militant about never having children, and are casually insulting by referring to them as "crotchfruit?"

Posted by TPRJones on May 12 2014,10:22

... why would someone militant about never having children be offended by calling children "crotchfruit"? I would think they'd be the ones most likely to do so.

Me I am certainly never having children. Militant is a strong word, though. I realize that children are necessary if the species is to continue. I'm just grateful I don't have to be involved.

Posted by GORDON on May 12 2014,10:30

(TPRJones @ May 12 2014,13:22)

QUOTE

... why would someone militant about never having children be offended by calling children "crotchfruit"? I would think they'd be the ones most likely to do so.

I reread what I said and I don't THINK I worded it backwards, as you seem to have interpreted it.

But I could be having a stroke, so check my work.

Posted by Leisher on May 12 2014,10:33

QUOTE

I reread what I said and I don't THINK I worded it backwards, as you seem to have interpreted it.

Yeah, TPR read it wrong.

I enjoyed your linked article mainly because it shits all over those opinionated pieces about X by people who have never experienced X.

Get married. Don't. Have kids. Don't. Whatever choice you make doesn't make you an expert on the choice you didn't make.

Posted by TPRJones on May 12 2014,11:12

Oh! I read "insulting" as "insulted"

And then reread it wrong several times over in confusion.

Posted by GORDON on May 12 2014,11:17

So when I said, "this may offend the perma-single people" I meant because so many of them are militant about how much better their lives without children are, to the point of being insulting about it.

I have facebook-unfreinded 2 acquaintances in the last few months because they are in their 30's, not married, no kids, and talking about how great their lives are because they don't have children. I WANT to reassure them that they are never going to grow old and that they will be young and fabulous and carefree forever, but I don't care, it's their lives. I just wish they weren't so casually insulting about it. I happen to like my crotchfruit, and I take offense at your labeling him as such. Figurative-you.

Posted by TPRJones on May 12 2014,11:22

I do consider that my life is worlds better because I am single and free of the responsibility of children. Why is that insulting?

I'm also happy I don't own a house and thus have to worry about things like maintenance, property taxes, and lawn care. Does that also insult you?

Posted by GORDON on May 12 2014,11:23

I told you exactly how they are insulting.

Posted by TPRJones on May 12 2014,11:32

Other than the word "crotchfruit" the only thing you've said they did was say their lives are better because they don't have children. Which is what I just also did, but that didn't seem to insult you.

So now I can only deduce that it is the single word "crotchfruit" that you found insulting. It's a pretty stupid word, but insultingly so?

Posted by GORDON on May 12 2014,11:38

Well, that was it in a nutshell. I also used the word "militant," by which I meant they revel in their eternal youth unbound by any kind of real responsibility while simultaneously insulting those who chose a different life.

I don't care if these people have a new boyfriend every month and it is so great to be able to devote all of your time to your horses and cats, but you don't have to add, "I don't know why anyone would ever chose to have kids, your life is just so stupid." It's insulting. These people ALWAYS use the word "crotchfruit."

Again, paraphrasing. But it isn't anything you don't see 10 times a day if you read forums with a big enough user base.

Have honestly considered taking an internet break. Need to evaluate if I get more enjoyment or irritation because of its existence.

Posted by Malcolm on May 12 2014,11:46

QUOTE

I also used the word "militant," by which I meant they revel in their eternal youth unbound by any kind of real responsibility while simultaneously insulting those who chose a different life.

I'll take issue with the "real responsibility" part. Kids are not the only "real" responsibility.

QUOTE

Have honestly considered taking an internet break. Need to evaluate if I get more enjoyment or irritation because of its existence.

Maybe you should avoid the social bullshit sites that seem drive you up a wall.

Posted by GORDON on May 12 2014,11:55

(Malcolm @ May 12 2014,14:46)

QUOTE

I also used the word "militant," by which I meant they revel in their eternal youth unbound by any kind of real responsibility while simultaneously insulting those who chose a different life.

I'll take issue with the "real responsibility" part. Kids are not the only "real" responsibility.

It's the only thing you can do that has even the slightest chance of lasting into the future. Being remembered fondly by your nieces and nephews is fine and honorable as well. Not saying it isn't.

Don't really want to have this discussion again.

Posted by Leisher on May 12 2014,11:56

QUOTE

Have honestly considered taking an internet break. Need to evaluate if I get more enjoyment or irritation because of its existence.

I have a FB friend who said his goodbyes to everyone stating that FB was having a negative impact on his life (didn't specify how, but he's on a LOT), and he'd be taking a month long break. Long story short, he still hasn't stopped posting stuff, so...

Malcolm has the right idea for you though. If you quit the internet because of stupid shit other people do or say, then the terrorists have won. Seriously, just ignore/unfriend those folks and move on with your life. Besides, from everything you've said previously the majority of folks who piss you off are family, thus you'll need to quit the internet and Thanksgiving, X-Mas, 4th of July, etc.

Posted by GORDON on May 12 2014,12:00

(Malcolm @ May 12 2014,14:46)

QUOTE

Have honestly considered taking an internet break. Need to evaluate if I get more enjoyment or irritation because of its existence.

Maybe you should avoid the social bullshit sites that seem drive you up a wall.

I don't think it is possible, for the most part. We drove all the idiots out of this forum a long time ago. I have silenced everyone in my facebook feed who loves unions and obama and socialism. But I can't go to a family function without hearing about how great obamacare is. I can't read a game of thrones thread on a forum with 10k users because someone compares the failed barathean policies with george bush and those stupid teabaggers and how they hell can someone be so evil to vote for a racist republican anyway?

At least in LOL the worst I get is to be called a sucky faggot. At least they are honest.

Everybody thinks they are smarter than everyone else, no one can possibly disagree with them without being their worst enemy, and they are cruel when they think they are being kind. The world sucks. Can't be avoided, but at least it can be minimized.

Posted by Leisher on May 12 2014,12:16

I embrace the crazy.

I have some uncles on FB that are CRAZY right wingers. They say shit that I'm amazed hasn't landed them in jail yet.

I have a cousin and a friend who both post all the conspiracy shit they find and spout off like it's gospel.

I also have a friend who is ultra left wing and very active on FB.

All evoke similar emotional responses from me with their biased, not fact checked, hate filled FB posts. However, I just take in what I see, and then I move on. Usually, I discuss the crazy with my wife, who tends to do the same thing as you and unfollow or ignore folks.

And yes, rational debate is a lost art. I enjoy folks on either side who not only can discuss a topic, but encourage the discussion. I tend to think that anyone who thinks they're right about anything is usually wrong about most things.

Posted by TPRJones on May 12 2014,12:36

(GORDON @ May 12 2014,13:38)

QUOTE

"I don't know why anyone would ever chose to have kids, your life is just so stupid." It's insulting.

Ah, okay. Now I understand.

No, of course it's not stupid. It's certainly not for me, but it takes all kinds. And considering that you are continuing the species while I'm not, I can't really judge you for it. Even if the time suck of it would drive me mad.

QUOTE

It's the only thing you can do that has even the slightest chance of lasting into the future.

Okay, now you've lost me. I can think of lots and lots of historical figures that did important things that have made a lasting impression on the human race. In most cases it has nothing to do with if they had children or not. Your focus on children as being the only important thing once could ever possibly do sounds a bit weird to me.

QUOTE

Have honestly considered taking an internet break. Need to evaluate if I get more enjoyment or irritation because of its existence.

Other than webcomics and videos and suchlike, this is the only place I come online for discussion. You don't have to leave the entire internet, just stop going to the places overwhelmed by bullshit. Unless you consider DTM to be one such, I guess.

QUOTE

But I can't go to a family function without hearing about how great obamacare is.

Now you're just making my arguments for me. Having no family to deal with is so nice. Now that my mother is dead life is grand.

Posted by GORDON on May 12 2014,12:50

(TPRJones @ May 12 2014,15:36)

QUOTE

It's the only thing you can do that has even the slightest chance of lasting into the future.

I didn't think I would need to qualify with, "Unless you are one of the .00000001% of humanity to actually be rich or have some historical significance." Most people aren't and don't and never will be either.

For the great, vast majority of people, to the point where anything else is statistically zero, children are the only way to ever see the future. No one cares about your code 3 years after you leave the company. No one will remember how you saw all those movies.

There's nothing wrong with living an ordinary life and having kids. A lot of people seem to resent it.

No, not implying anyone in particular, I am being asked to clarify my point so I am.

Posted by TPRJones on May 12 2014,12:55

QUOTE

For the great, vast majority of people, to the point where anything else is statistically zero, children are the only way to ever see the future. No one cares about your code 3 years after you leave the company. No one will remember how you saw all those movies.

Okay, fair enough. I just wouldn't put children as being much above all the rest of that, either, in terms of value. It may last a little bit longer if your children and grand-children bother to remember you, I guess.

But if longevity of memory is all you want the fastest way there would be to do something infamous enough to get you put down in the history with all three names, like say John Wilkes Booth. Much easier than raising a kid, and longer lasting.

But as I said before, it takes all kinds.

Posted by GORDON on May 12 2014,12:57

You seem to leave out that for a good parent raising children can bring you a lot of happiness.

Posted by TPRJones on May 12 2014,12:59

I guess, if you are into that sort of thing. I classify that under the "takes all kinds" statement.

Posted by Malcolm on May 12 2014,13:06

QUOTE

It's the only thing you can do that has even the slightest chance of lasting into the future.

Mount Rushmore's probably going to last longer than any member of the human species.

QUOTE

But I can't go to a family function without hearing about how great obamacare is.

This has nothing to do with the 'net.

Posted by Vince on May 13 2014,03:08

(TPRJones @ May 12 2014,14:36)

QUOTE

Statistically, kids are your best chance at making an impression on the world. And in some ways, maybe more important than the individuals that do great things.

Could we have won WWII if our soldiers hadn't been raised with the sense of duty they had? Would we have elected a socialist President if this voting generation(s) hadn't grown up getting participation trophies?

Don't get me wrong, there arr many that have made huge impacts on us and how we live, but for every George Washington or Albert Einstein how many thousands have shuffled into the veil without us knowing their names are anything they've done?

Posted by TPRJones on May 13 2014,06:33

QUOTE

Could we have won WWII if our soldiers hadn't been raised with the sense of duty they had? Would we have elected a socialist President if this voting generation(s) hadn't grown up getting participation trophies?

Would we have had to fight WWII if the majority of the nazis had never been born? If soldiers returning from WWII hadn't had so many kids in the baby boom that half of them felt a bit neglected and ended up becoming helicopter parents later on would they have given out all those participation trophies?

Yes, those are silly. But for most positive arguments about the historical impact of having children there's often a negative argument right there along with it. Having enough children to keep the species alive is important. Raising them well enough to keep society alive is important. But it's hardly historically significant.

Most of us are insignificant. That's just the way the world is. Having children doesn't change that.

Posted by Malcolm on May 13 2014,07:16

QUOTE

Would we have had to fight WWII if the majority of the nazis had never been born?

Or if all of Europe hadn't been complete bitches at the treat of Versailles? Would've been nice if their parents had told them to lay off the unnecessary vengeance.

Posted by GORDON on May 13 2014,07:17

(TPRJones @ May 13 2014,09:33)

QUOTE

Most of us are insignificant. That's just the way the world is. Having children doesn't change that.

That's where we disagree. Raising a good person is about the most significant thing most of us will ever do.

Posted by GORDON on May 13 2014,07:18

(Malcolm @ May 13 2014,10:16)

QUOTE

Would we have had to fight WWII if the majority of the nazis had never been born?

Or if all of Europe hadn't been complete bitches at the treat of Versailles?

I wish just once Obama would be caught on camera saying, "We will have peace in our time."

Posted by TPRJones on May 13 2014,08:25

(GORDON @ May 13 2014,09:17)

QUOTE

(TPRJones @ May 13 2014,09:33)

QUOTE

Most of us are insignificant. That's just the way the world is. Having children doesn't change that.

That's where we disagree. Raising a good person is about the most significant thing most of us will ever do.

Well, that can only be true if either 1) that child then goes on to be Einstein or the Pope (or Stalin or Hitler), or 2) also has children. If either of those is not true, then that would invalidate your significance by putting an end to it.

Thus if none of your children or their children (ad inifnitum) ever produce an Important Historical Figure, then if your line ever dies off down the generations without offspring the whole string of significance collapses and suddenly all those generations of children no longer matter because at the end of the chain was no more children.

Posted by GORDON on May 13 2014,09:49

Again, I disagree. My offspring don't need to be famous. They can be a fireman and save someones life. They can be a teacher and inspire a troubled youth to get their act together. They can be an accountant that helps a stranded motorist on the freeway. They can be someone completely ordinary and still live a simple, happy life somewhere and have kids of his own.

As long as my child grows into a good man, that all by itself means I have succeeded as a human being.

Posted by TPRJones on May 13 2014,11:32

But by those standards, can't you leave out the children and instead be a fireman or teacher or accountant and still be just as much of a success? Pushing it off one generation before it can be a success just seems a bit arbitrary.

Or did that last clause about "and have kids of his own" apply to all sections prior, and if he doesn't have kids then being a fireman or teacher or accountant wouldn't be enough to be a success? If it still would, then why can't those same standards apply to the current generation as well as this future one?

Just to be clear I am by no means trying to argue against the existance of your children. I'm just trying to understand why their existence seems to be the very definition of success for you, so much so that people without children appear to be considered a failure.

Posted by GORDON on May 13 2014,13:07

Because of your mom.

Posted by TPRJones on May 13 2014,13:14

She died last month.

Posted by GORDON on May 13 2014,13:38

It depends on ones goals. If your goal in life is to never be bothered until the day you die, then no, don't have kids. You can have all the personal time possible to consume whatever you want to eat and whatever you want to watch and it's all yours and someday when you are old and decrepit you can pay someone elses kid to wipe your ass for you.

I want to make a difference in the world, I always have. I've accomplished that already by being a Marine (Ronald Reagan said so), but I also got lucky enough to have a kid. So I sacrifice some of my time and treasure for this neat little guy who looks at me like I am god and I get to look at the world through his eyes and see it again for the first time. I will guide his growth and development and one will day spin him loose and see how he does.

In your perspective, you don't envy me my responsibilities. In my perspective, I don't envy your genetic dead end. Just depends on your priorities. No judgements.

Posted by Malcolm on May 13 2014,14:09

QUOTE

If your goal in life is to never be bothered until the day you die, then no, don't have kids.

Merely one optional aspect of life that takes up time. There are many, many more.

QUOTE

someday when you are old and decrepit you can pay someone elses kid to wipe your ass for you

Your argument is that they're around to take care of you when you can't do it yourself?

QUOTE

So I sacrifice some of my time and treasure for this neat little guy who looks at me like I am god and I get to look at the world through his eyes and see it again for the first time.

Someone looking at me like I'm god isn't anything like anything I want. As for the second half, the jadedness in me would not be broken by such a thing.

Posted by TPRJones on May 14 2014,06:16

QUOTE

If your goal in life is to never be bothered until the day you die...

Oh, if only such were possible, what a fine world it would be. Sadly Justin Beiber exists, so it could never be.

QUOTE

In your perspective, you don't envy me my responsibilities. In my perspective, I don't envy your genetic dead end. Just depends on your priorities. No judgements.

A fair and equitable summary. Perhaps it's because so many of my relatives have been people I find despicably racist and hateful and do all I can to never come anywhere near them that I hold zero value in genetics in general. Family is the people you choose to value, genetics be damned.

Posted by Malcolm on May 14 2014,09:35

(Malcolm @ May 12 2014,13:46)

QUOTE

Have honestly considered taking an internet break. Need to evaluate if I get more enjoyment or irritation because of its existence.

Maybe you should avoid the social bullshit sites that seem drive you up a wall.

< App G should not download >.