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Forum: Internet Links Topic: Fred Phelps near death started by: Malcolm Posted by Malcolm on Mar. 17 2014,09:50
< Maybe >.
Posted by Vince on Mar. 17 2014,10:33
I'm curious about the story of his being excommunicated from his church.
Posted by Leisher on Mar. 17 2014,10:41
He's in Hospice, but "not near death"?Someone doesn't know what Hospice is... Posted by TPRJones on Mar. 17 2014,10:52
I wish I believed in a hell so that I could be happy to know he would be burning for all eternity soon. The lack of eternal punishment for your most hated foes is kind of a downside to atheism.QUOTE ...the elder Phelps was ex-communicated by his own church last year... This does make me feel better, though. Posted by Vince on Mar. 17 2014,11:04
(TPRJones @ Mar. 17 2014,12:52) QUOTE I wish I believed in a hell so that I could be happy to know he would be burning for all eternity soon. The lack of eternal punishment for your most hated foes is kind of a downside to atheism. As an atheist, what about what they do bothers you? Posted by TPRJones on Mar. 17 2014,11:12
They cause - and inspire others to cause - a shit-ton of misery for people who are alive. As a human being that bothers me.What would being an atheist have to do with that? Are you implying atheists are incapable of having compassion for others? Posted by Vince on Mar. 17 2014,11:27
(TPRJones @ Mar. 17 2014,13:12) QUOTE Are you implying atheists are incapable of having compassion for others? Not at all. I'm genuinely curious is all. I believe in God, and they anger me because of that belief. I think they pervert my beliefs and those of Christians that are burying their beloved. At the same time, someone not of my faith saying I'm going to hell doesn't bother me at all. Muslims saying Allah will flay me... not a bother. A Muslim saying that to a Hindu... doesn't bother me. They have to have the comfort of their own faith. In my life I've only met (on a personal relationship level) one atheist that seemed 100% congruent with his atheism. He was completely respectful of others beliefs, and would sit quietly while a coworker said grace over his lunch. He could state his position without venom. One of the things I've noticed (especially in AA meetings) among people that claim to be atheist is... they sure do hate God a lot to not believe in him. Posted by Leisher on Mar. 17 2014,11:29
QUOTE One of the things I've noticed (especially in AA meetings) among people that claim to be atheist is... they sure do hate God a lot to not believe in him. I can see that. However, I think you have to allow for many not hating God, but hating the men who claim to speak for God. Posted by Malcolm on Mar. 17 2014,11:31
QUOTE Got it all wrong, holy man. I absolutely believe in God... And I absolutely hate the fucker.
Posted by TPRJones on Mar. 17 2014,11:37
What Leisher said. I can get rather worked up on religious issues, but it's not because I secretly believe in God. It's because the actual harm done to actual people by some who claim to be doing so in the name of God get me pissed off.Even if there were a God, I would still refuse to believe he's the petty worship-hungry asshole that Fred Phelps preaches. EDIT: I honestly have no problem with religion in general principle and would be respectful if people had the decency to stop using their beliefs to hurt others. But my experience has been that the majority of religious people have a very hard time with that concept. Not just some but the majority of religious people I have known seem to be determined to force their beliefs on others through enacting laws, or use their beliefs as a cudgel to hurt those they disagree with wherever they can. Even as fervently anti-religious as I sometimes get, I still maintain I'm far more "respectful" of someone's religion then the vast majority of religious people are of the people that don't agree with them. Posted by Malcolm on Mar. 17 2014,11:46
I look at it from one of two perspectives:i) There is no god and all of the rules we make up surrounding such a being come from inside our own psyches. ii) There is a god. If the second case is correct, I can't imagine him being anything except cosmically indifferent at best or malevolent at worst. Posted by Vince on Mar. 17 2014,11:48
(Leisher @ Mar. 17 2014,13:29) QUOTE However, I think you have to allow for many not hating God, but hating the men who claim to speak for God. But why hate men that claim to speak for a god you don't believe in? If they claim to speak for God and they aren't advocating infringing on the rights of someone else, who cares? If they claim to be speaking for a god you don't believe in, why get all bent out of shape? I don't hate Muslims that claim to speak for Allah, until they start killing and maiming people. And even then, I don't hate them. They need to be taken out because their twisted beliefs are a danger to others. But I don't hate them. If someone says Vishnu hates me because I'm left handed, I don't care. If someone says the God of Abraham hates me because I'm left handed, I want to have a conversation as to why as a Christian (or Jew) they'd think that. Posted by TPRJones on Mar. 17 2014,11:50
QUOTE If they claim to speak for God and they aren't advocating infringing on the rights of someone else, who cares? I have put the problem in bold for you. My personal experience is that when someone religious is talking about someone else that doesn't share their beliefs, the part in bold is most likely false to one degree or another. QUOTE And even then, I don't hate them. They need to be taken out because their twisted beliefs are a danger to others. But I don't hate them. You are a better person than I am. But you make it sounds almost clinical, like you are shooting a rabid dog instead of dealing with a person who has decided to kill and maim others. I wouldn't hate a rabid dog, but I do hate a suicide bomber. Perhaps we see different amounts of personal agency in their decisions? Posted by Malcolm on Mar. 17 2014,12:37
QUOTE If they claim to be speaking for a god you don't believe in, why get all bent out of shape? It's not who they claim to speak for, it's the rights, authority, and destiny they think it gives them. QUOTE If someone says Vishnu hates me because I'm left handed, I don't care. If someone says the God of Abraham hates me because I'm left handed, I want to have a conversation as to why as a Christian (or Jew) they'd think that. I don't mind having that talk, either. But it always seems to go back to some religious doctrine that is unquestionable according to their beliefs. QUOTE They need to be taken out because their twisted beliefs are a danger to others. But I don't hate them. The ones that do it because they've never been given a chance to learn anything except those fucked up thoughts, I've got a modicum of sympathy for them. The others, not so much. Posted by Vince on Mar. 17 2014,13:42
(TPRJones @ Mar. 17 2014,13:50) QUOTE QUOTE If they claim to speak for God and they aren't advocating infringing on the rights of someone else, who cares? I have put the problem in bold for you. My personal experience is that when someone religious is talking about someone else that doesn't share their beliefs, the part in bold is most likely false to one degree or another. I go back to the original question about these church goers and the funerals. What rights are they infringing on? I just have trouble seeing where an atheist would feel the need to feel one way or the other. Consider two kids. One says his invisible friend doesn't like the other's fancy pants brother. I would think the atheist response would be to feel the second kid is stupid for believing in the first kids' invisible friend. QUOTE You are a better person than I am. But you make it sounds almost clinical, like you are shooting a rabid dog instead of dealing with a person who has decided to kill and maim others. I wouldn't hate a rabid dog, but I do hate a suicide bomber. Perhaps we see different amounts of personal agency in their decisions? to me putting down the suicide bomber is a lot like putting down a rabid dog. Now they guy that convinces him to strap on the bomb while thinking he's way too important to give his life for the cause is another matter. Because that one doesn't even believe in the dogma he's spouting.
Posted by Vince on Mar. 17 2014,13:46
(Malcolm @ Mar. 17 2014,14:37) QUOTE QUOTE If someone says Vishnu hates me because I'm left handed, I don't care. If someone says the God of Abraham hates me because I'm left handed, I want to have a conversation as to why as a Christian (or Jew) they'd think that. I don't mind having that talk, either. But it always seems to go back to some religious doctrine that is unquestionable according to their beliefs. Like I said, if they're of the Judeo/Christian faith, then I'm curious as to why they think that (as I consider myself Christian). Otherwise, "if it neither breaks my leg nor picks my pocket"... I don't really care. Posted by Malcolm on Mar. 17 2014,14:01
There are a bajillion different denominations of Christians. Hell, there are even non-denominational ones. Part of my skepticism for organized religion comes from the fact I don't think you're getting millions, thousands, hundreds, or even dozens of people to agree to a vision of the purpose of life, the powers that be, the afterlife, etc., without:i) severely limiting the scope of your beliefs OR ii) making statements that are vague, beige, impractical, and often contradictory. Posted by Vince on Mar. 17 2014,14:06
QUOTE I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did.
Posted by TPRJones on Mar. 17 2014,14:39
(Vince @ Mar. 17 2014,15:42) QUOTE I go back to the original question about these church goers and the funerals. Admittedly my indignity at what the WBC does at funerals is minimal. I find it distasteful and disrespectful to be interfering with the grief of others. I find it disgusting in the way that I find vultures to be disgusting - with the notable exception that vultures perform a useful function. But it is ultimately mostly harmless because in those situations they aren't getting through to anyone in a meaningful way. I have more problem with them frequently and loudly telling gay kids to go kill themselves. Some of those kids get enough of that already from their parents, they don't need WBC reinforcing their problems. Posted by Vince on Mar. 17 2014,14:53
(TPRJones @ Mar. 17 2014,16:39) QUOTE I have more problem with them frequently and loudly telling gay kids to go kill themselves. Some of those kids get enough of that already from their parents, they don't need WBC reinforcing their problems. Heh... I was told continuously in high school to not smoke, not drink, do my homework and clean my room... by people that meant a whole lot more to me than folks I didn't know from a church I didn't attend. I would think they are negligible with the gay kids, too. If not, they have issues bigger than these idiots. Posted by TPRJones on Mar. 17 2014,14:56
QUOTE I would think they are negligible with the gay kids, too. If not, they have issues bigger than these idiots. In most cases, probably. But I have no doubt that WBC has helped push a small handful over the edge by being the last straw to break etc etc. And that's just sad to think about, so I'm not going to. Posted by Malcolm on Mar. 17 2014,15:01
(Vince @ Mar. 17 2014,16:06) QUOTE QUOTE I think vital religion has always suffered when orthodoxy is more regarded than virtue. The scriptures assure me that at the last day we shall not be examined on what we thought but what we did. I don't know a lot of people that subscribe to the Church of Ben Franklin. That's even more interesting, because it tends to support < this >, which tends to torpedo a < major point > of < this >. So, you've got a lot of Protestants that take a shitload of issue with it already. Are their opinions as invalid as the Hindus because you have a huge, major, critical point of doctrinal contention with them? How far away would you have to be from a Christian denomination's fundamental beliefs before you could regard their opinion with the same nonchalance as that of say, a Hindu or Buddhist? I'm also going to point out that Ben was not known for being the most virtuous chap on the block. Posted by Malcolm on Mar. 18 2014,09:04
< The trolls commence >.
Posted by Leisher on Mar. 18 2014,09:51
(Malcolm @ Mar. 18 2014,12:04) QUOTE < The trolls commence >. That's like Star Wars fans turning Captain Kirk into a Jedi. Posted by Vince on Mar. 20 2014,10:33
He's done. I forgot he was a lawyer. He might burn in hell for that before anything else.I do remember that they represented themselves in court dealing for their free speech civil trials. I honestly think that's the reason they were doing what they did. They made a killing in settlements before everyone figured out you couldn't stop them legally. Posted by Malcolm on Mar. 20 2014,10:46
If there's any justice in this reality, he'll be reincarnated as the gay offspring of one of his grandchildren.
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