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Forum: Internet Links Topic: Arizona says fuck you started by: Malcolm Posted by Malcolm on Feb. 24 2014,12:05
< To 14th Amendment >.QUOTE All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws. ... The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article. I fail to see how this is any different from a white supremacist religion refusing service to blacks. If this shit holds, I'm starting a new faith whose first commandment is, "Thou shalt not render payment of taxes to any governmental entity." Posted by Vince on Feb. 25 2014,10:33
This all stems from stupid gays wanting to make people bake them a cake that don't want to bake them a cake. How vindictive and retarded do you have to be to FORCE someone to prepare you food that doesn't want to prepare you food? Might as well beg them to piss in the batter.Remember the scene from Heathers at the funeral for the two football jocks? Where they had staged the shooting to look like a homosexual love affair gone Romeo and Juliet? Remember the one father crying, "I love my dead gay son!"? I think too many homosexuals have been forever screwed up because all they ever wanted in life was to hear that from their moms and/or dads. And since they never did they are forever trapped in some sort of emotional trap where they can only feel acceptance within themselves when they feel it from others. Even if it comes at the barrel of a gun. Posted by TPRJones on Feb. 25 2014,10:44
Can't say I disagree. If the bakery had initially taken the job then backed out at the last minute due to not wanting to give up their bigoted beliefs, then I think they would deserve punishment. But as much of a supporter for equal rights as I am, I also support "we reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." If someone doesn't want to serve gays or jews or blacks, they should have that right. And then when they are protested and publicly shamed and go out of business, that's fine, too. But the government shouldn't be stepping in to hand out punishment unless there was actual harm done.
Posted by Malcolm on Feb. 25 2014,15:01
Which Bible verse prohibits selling things to gays? That one must have slipped me by among all the other stories where Jesus is hanging out with beggars, prostitutes, tax collectors, and criminals. What religious basis do they have for this act if the son of their lord and saviour spent most of his ministry interacting with sinners?
Posted by GORDON on Feb. 25 2014,15:39
(Malcolm @ Feb. 25 2014,18:01) QUOTE Which Bible verse prohibits selling things to gays? That one must have slipped me by among all the other stories where Jesus is hanging out with beggars, prostitutes, tax collectors, and criminals. What religious basis do they have for this act if the son of their lord and saviour spent most of his ministry interacting with sinners? I don't think the bible has anything to do with it. I hope someone I don't like doesn't come to me and ask me to bake them a cake, because apparently the government is going to force me to do it. Posted by TPRJones on Feb. 25 2014,15:54
(Malcolm @ Feb. 25 2014,17:01) QUOTE Which Bible verse prohibits selling things to gays? Of course the answer is there isn't one. Christianity itself only says a dude shouldn't have sex with other dudes, but with all the other things it says about loving your neighbor and not judging others and forgiving and whatnot it's pretty clear that Christianity itself is a bit backwards but not particularly anti-gay. This isn't about religion, it's about hatred and bigotry. It always has been. Posted by TheCatt on Feb. 25 2014,16:10
(TPRJones @ Feb. 25 2014,18:54) QUOTE This isn't about religion, it's about hatred and bigotry. It always has been. The bill says for "religious reasons only," so somehow religious people have become a more special than others class. This bill is insane. If she signs it, it just gets shot down by the courts anyway. Posted by Vince on Feb. 25 2014,16:50
(Malcolm @ Feb. 25 2014,17:01) QUOTE Which Bible verse prohibits selling things to gays? That one must have slipped me by among all the other stories where Jesus is hanging out with beggars, prostitutes, tax collectors, and criminals. What religious basis do they have for this act if the son of their lord and saviour spent most of his ministry interacting with sinners? Jesus hung out with those sinners and spread his gospel. He didn't bake them a cake. To me, the gays shit their bed when they threw a queen fit over the Duck Dynasty guy. And then the right screwed the pooch in their reaction to it. Robertson did not have his freedom of speech infringed upon. You CAN be fired for things you say. What you CAN'T be fired for is your religious beliefs. And THAT was what they suspended him for. And that's what hurt the gays feelings. He said he believed what they were doing and how they lived their lives was a sin. I don't agree with putting them in ovens or stoning them to death or putting them in prison or any number of actual complaints homosexuals in other countries have. Throwing a drama queen fit and acting all 5th grade girl because people may not like you or approve of your lifestyle means they can choke on a dong as far as I'm concerned. I didn't care one way or the other until you said if someone disagrees with you they are homophobes. The gaystapo can suck it. Posted by Malcolm on Feb. 25 2014,16:52
QUOTE I don't think the bible has anything to do with it. If they want to use religion as a shield for their own prejudice and cowardice, then they'd better have a sound theological basis. If I can't half-ass a religion to get tax exempt status, I shouldn't be able to do it to control the clientele in my biz. Posted by Malcolm on Feb. 25 2014,16:53
QUOTE He didn't bake them a cake. The loaves and fishes thing must have been my imagination. QUOTE You CAN be fired for things you say. What you CAN'T be fired for is your religious beliefs. So you can't be fired for espousing certain beliefs? I find it absurd that the faithful can get exceptions against serving gays but since "religion" made it into the first amendment instead of "who you like to fuck", the gays would have a harder time not serving the religious. It's even more fucked up when you consider religion is something you get to choose, in theory, and your sexual orientation isn't really an active decision. Posted by Vince on Feb. 25 2014,16:57
(Malcolm @ Feb. 25 2014,18:53) QUOTE QUOTE He didn't bake them a cake. The loaves and fishes thing must have been my imagination. Are the gays offering to allow the cake baker to come the the wedding and preach? For that matter, are they showing up at the bakery to hear the baker speak the gospel? Is the baker Jesus H Christ? This comparison is making no sense. Posted by Malcolm on Feb. 25 2014,16:59
(Vince @ Feb. 25 2014,18:57) QUOTE (Malcolm @ Feb. 25 2014,18:53) QUOTE QUOTE He didn't bake them a cake. The loaves and fishes thing must have been my imagination. Are the gays offering to allow the cake baker to come the the wedding and preach? For that matter, are they showing up at the bakery to hear the baker speak the gospel? Is the baker Jesus H Christ? This comparison is making no sense. At least Jesus was able to interact with them. From the book itself, Matthew 5:47: QUOTE 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?
Posted by TPRJones on Feb. 25 2014,17:04
QUOTE I didn't care one way or the other until you said if someone disagrees with you they are homophobes. People that are so opposed to homosexuality that they would seek to make them into second-class citizens or persecute them out of existence entirely are homophobes, or at least are serving a religion that is grounded in homophobia. Christianity is not thus, and neither is Islam, but that doesn't stop some people from claiming it so. And if someone chooses to follow and actively try to enact into law a religion that is grounded in homophobia I fail to see any practical difference between that and being themselves homophobic. And to be clear all because they disagree with me doesn't make me become antagonistic. It's when they start to try to enact laws to enforce their own beliefs - be they honest homophobia or masked as religion - with laws that then damage the lives of others. That's where the line is, and there's been a rush of assholes trying to sprint across it for the past several decades. Posted by Vince on Feb. 25 2014,17:07
(Malcolm @ Feb. 25 2014,18:59) QUOTE At least Jesus was able to interact with them. From the book itself, Matthew 5:47: QUOTE 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Sounds to me like the baker interacted fine. He (or she... I think it was a female) said, "I don't recognize gay marriage, I wish you the best but I can't make you a wedding cake." I don't think Jesus spent time with the hookers and told them that banging married men was just as cool in his and his Dad's eyes as being married. And I don't think the hookers told Jesus that they were going to take him and his daddy to court if they didn't let them into heaven even if they don't repent their sins and continue to take coin for poon. Posted by Vince on Feb. 25 2014,17:11
(TPRJones @ Feb. 25 2014,19:04) QUOTE People that are so opposed to homosexuality that they would seek to make them into second-class citizens or persecute them out of existence entirely are homophobes, or at least are serving a religion that is grounded in homophobia. Christianity is not thus, and neither is Islam, but that doesn't stop some people from claiming it so. And if someone chooses to follow and actively try to enact into law a religion that is grounded in homophobia I fail to see any practical difference between that and being themselves homophobic. I don't want laws saying they can't have a cake baked for their wedding. I want laws saying that if someone has a moral objection to it, then THEY can't be forced into baking them a cake. I have to problem with a gay couple having a cake on their wedding day. The same as my not wanting an OB-GYN with a moral objection to performing an abortion to be REQUIRED to perform abortions. Posted by TPRJones on Feb. 25 2014,17:11
I suspect the lesbians in question were looking for a fight. There's assholes on both sides.
Posted by TPRJones on Feb. 25 2014,17:16
QUOTE I want laws saying that if someone has a moral objection to it, then THEY can't be forced into baking them a cake. I agree with you. I think any private business should be allowed to refuse service to anyone for any reason. The proper response to someone refusing to do so for grounds one dislikes is to either 1) leave them alone and take your business to someone else, or 2) protest them and spread the word about what sort of people they are if #1 doesn't sit well with you. But the law should not be getting involved. This could admittedly be problematic in a small community. Say there's a doctor that won't service gays and he's the only doctor in town and someone dies because of it then there's a problem. I'm not sure how to deal with that. But for most people in most places they can just go to another business that isn't such jerks. I don't like this law specifically because it only is about "religious grounds". If it had said "for any reason" I'd be more inclined to think it less shitty of a law, even if I know it would be applied in shitty ways. Posted by GORDON on Feb. 25 2014,17:19
(Malcolm @ Feb. 25 2014,19:52) QUOTE QUOTE I don't think the bible has anything to do with it. If they want to use religion as a shield for their own prejudice and cowardice, then they'd better have a sound theological basis. If I can't half-ass a religion to get tax exempt status, I shouldn't be able to do it to control the clientele in my biz. Well then hiel hitler. If you say so. Posted by TheCatt on Feb. 25 2014,18:20
Public business are not allowed to discriminate on various matters already, this is law. The bakery in question was apparently in Oregon, not Arizona, and was not following Oregon's laws.QUOTE Businesses are primarily places of public accommodation. That means they are in business to accommodate the needs of the public. They actively invite and seek the patronage of the public and therefore are subject to the same anti-discrimination laws that protect workers seeking employment or promotion. Specifically, the Civil Rights Act of 1964 prohibits discrimination and guarantees all persons the right to “full and equal enjoyment of the goods, services, facilities, privileges, advantages, and accommodations of any place of public accommodation, without discrimination or segregation on the grounds of race, color, religion or national origin.” As I understand that, it does not include homosexuality at the federal level, but it can at a state level. I also do not see how refusing to bake a cake is compatible with Christianity, but hey, I'm not Jesus. QUOTE For the most part, courts have decided that the constitutional interest in providing equal access to public accommodations outweighs the individual liberties involved.
Posted by Vince on Feb. 25 2014,18:29
Can I force a Jewish baker to bake a cake for my dog's bat mitzvah?
Posted by Malcolm on Feb. 25 2014,19:05
(Vince @ Feb. 25 2014,20:29) QUOTE Can I force a Jewish baker to bake a cake for my dog's bat mitzvah? That thing you're calling a "bat mitzvah" there isn't anywhere close to what a practicing Jew would call one because not one of them would recognize a dog as being able to participate in such a ceremony. I'll cease going back and forth on this, but if they'd just declare their own intolerance instead of chalking it up to a particular group's ultra-selective interpretation of certain literature, I wouldn't mind so much. Saying, "I don't approve of gay people or their lifestyle so I'm not doing business with them," is one thing. It's an honest thing that comes from someone's personality, and if they really, really believe that shit, then fine, let them run their shop into the ground as they see fit. Saying, "My religion doesn't approve of gay people or their lifestyle," is shifting the reason for that judgement off and away YOU and your own psyche and onto some old-ass sacred texts written millennia ago by dudes halfway across the globe living in a different era of history. QUOTE Sounds to me like the baker interacted fine. He (or she... I think it was a female) said, "I don't recognize gay marriage, I wish you the best but I can't make you a wedding cake." You expect me to believe someone who doesn't think enough of homosexuals to do business with them is, in reality, totally cool with them on a personal level? Posted by Vince on Feb. 26 2014,03:30
(Malcolm @ Feb. 25 2014,21:05) QUOTE You expect me to believe someone who doesn't think enough of homosexuals to do business with them is, in reality, totally cool with them on a personal level? See, here's where the gaystapo here has been going off the rails. The baker in the Oregon case did not refuse to do business with the gays. The refused to bake a cake for what they felt was a perversion and/or mockery of a religious sacrament. Christians say to love the sinner but hate the sin. That's all I'm seeing from them here. You show me an instance where a baker refused to bake a birthday cake for a gay, and I'll agree with you that they are a bigot. Not wanting to be forced to help facilitate something they see as against God's will and against their moral conscience (gay marriage) is not hate. If you have a problem with someone's religion, that's fine. But don't try to mask your own bigotry as theirs. ** edited to say, when I say "you" I don't mean you personally. When I tried to write both parties in third person with qualifiers it became really clunky to follow. Posted by TheCatt on Feb. 26 2014,05:36
(Vince @ Feb. 26 2014,06:30) QUOTE See, here's where the gaystapo here has been going off the rails. The baker in the Oregon case did not refuse to do business with the gays. The refused to bake a cake for what they felt was a perversion and/or mockery of a religious sacrament. That's fine, if it's a bakery that only bakes for their church. But once you enter the public space to bake for anyone, you've got to do it. And, since marriage isn't an exclusively religious ceremony, they have no basis for that argument. Posted by TPRJones on Feb. 26 2014,06:05
QUOTE See, here's where the gaystapo here has been going off the rails. The baker in the Oregon case did not refuse to do business with the gays. The refused to bake a cake for what they felt was a perversion and/or mockery of a religious sacrament. Would it be okay if they refused to bake cakes for interracial marriages, if they believe that interracial marriages are a perversion and/or mockery of their religious sacrament? Posted by TheCatt on Feb. 26 2014,07:22
(TPRJones @ Feb. 26 2014,09:05) QUOTE QUOTE See, here's where the gaystapo here has been going off the rails. The baker in the Oregon case did not refuse to do business with the gays. The refused to bake a cake for what they felt was a perversion and/or mockery of a religious sacrament. Would it be okay if they refused to bake cakes for interracial marriages, if they believe that interracial marriages are a perversion and/or mockery of their religious sacrament? C'mon TPR, the gays are different. Posted by GORDON on Feb. 26 2014,08:03
I think people should not be compelled by government to morality no matter how bigoted they are, but that's just me.
Posted by Malcolm on Feb. 26 2014,08:05
(GORDON @ Feb. 26 2014,10:03) QUOTE I think people should not be compelled by government to morality no matter how bigoted they are, but that's just me. So Plessy v. Ferguson was a good ruling in your opinion? Posted by TheCatt on Feb. 26 2014,08:47
(GORDON @ Feb. 26 2014,11:03) QUOTE I think people should not be compelled by government to morality no matter how bigoted they are, but that's just me. If the government does anything, it should be guaranteeing the rights of the people. To me, that is job #1. If people want to be bigots, fine. But your statement means that racism is fine. Posted by Vince on Feb. 26 2014,09:23
(TPRJones @ Feb. 26 2014,08:05) QUOTE Would it be okay if they refused to bake cakes for interracial marriages, if they believe that interracial marriages are a perversion and/or mockery of their religious sacrament? Would it be okay? No, not to me. Should it be the government's business? No. Maybe the gays can sue the Pope now in the event he doesn't allow the church to marry the gays. The last group anyone should want to have as the arbiters of morality is the government. I tend to hold the more enlightened and mature approach to life that if you don't like me, I don't like you first. Tends to cut down a lot on this wadded panty crybaby shit. Posted by Malcolm on Feb. 26 2014,09:32
QUOTE Maybe the gays can sue the Pope now in the event he doesn't allow the church to marry the gays. They gays don't give a fuck what Pope Frankie thinks. They do, however, very much give a fuck about the legal implications of being married to someone. Posted by Vince on Feb. 26 2014,10:32
(Malcolm @ Feb. 26 2014,11:32) QUOTE QUOTE Maybe the gays can sue the Pope now in the event he doesn't allow the church to marry the gays. They gays don't give a fuck what Pope Frankie thinks. They do, however, very much give a fuck about the legal implications of being married to someone. And apparently about forcing someone to make a cake for them that doesn't want to make a cake for them. Posted by GORDON on Feb. 26 2014,10:57
(TheCatt @ Feb. 26 2014,11:47) QUOTE If people want to be bigots, fine. But your statement means that racism is fine. Never said it was fine. Said I didn't want the government deciding for me what is, and is not, legally moral. And I don't want to be forced to bake a cake for someone I don't like. Posted by Vince on Feb. 26 2014,11:06
There are enough gays in all walks of life that they can pretty much get coverage of anything even if ALL heteros were to cut them off from their places of business.Except for carpentry work. While I'm sure there are lesbians that can add a room onto your house, it will be poorly done because we all know woman suck at that sort of thing. Posted by TheCatt on Feb. 26 2014,17:58
Vetoed.
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