Forum: Internet Links
Topic: Marines are going to try scopes in Basic
started by: GORDON

Posted by GORDON on Jun. 30 2011,19:05
< http://bigpeace.com/stzu....-scopes >

QUOTE
“MARINE CORPS BASE QUANTICO, Va. — In a significant reversal, the Marine Corps has begun using optics at entry-level training, and could do so on a permanent basis beginning next year.

The scopes will be used by recruits based at Parris Island, S.C., and San Diego beginning in July as part of a pilot program, said Col. Timothy Armstrong, head of Weapons Training Battalion based here. Two companies of new lieutenants here at The Basic School already have trained with them, and shown dramatic improvements in how they shoot, Marine officials said.


I disagree with this.  Learn the basics of marksmanship in Basic, then perhaps practice the scopes in MCT (Marine Combat Training) that happens for a month after Basic.  Maybe add a week on to MCT and just have them at the range.... just like the week you spend at the range in boot camp.

I sez.

Posted by Cakedaddy on Jul. 01 2011,00:38
Why?  As long as ALL weapons are issued with scopes, no need to learn without.  Granted, scope could become damaged and then you'd have to switch over.  But given the increase in accuracy among your peers, the average accuracy of a platoon will still be greater than if everyone was trained well on iron sites and no scopes.

I call it progress.  There isn't much time spent on hand-to-hand combat, because advanced weapons capabilities have removed the need for it.  Issuing scopes on all weapons removes the need for in depth iron sites training.

Posted by Leisher on Jul. 01 2011,05:49
No, a reliance on technology will get your ass killed.

A shooter should always learn the basics before moving to scopes and a soldier should always learn how to fight hand to hand before moving onto the better technology.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 01 2011,15:36
As one of my former high school teachers said, "We keep giving the kids better and better tools, but they just keep getting stupider and stupider."  I think < Isaac has an opinion >.
Posted by Cakedaddy on Jul. 10 2011,08:33

(Leisher @ Jun. 30 2011,22:49)
QUOTE
No, a reliance on technology will get your ass killed.

A shooter should always learn the basics before moving to scopes and a soldier should always learn how to fight hand to hand before moving onto the better technology.

Says the guy who was in the AIR FORCE!  No reliance on technology in that branch!

I don't see the scope as a huge leap in technology.  They can be made very sturdy, scratch proof, etc.  They can be just as reliable and part of the gun as the iron sites are.  In my opinion.

Posted by GORDON on Jul. 10 2011,08:57
Leisher is correct.

Basic is for the basics.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 10 2011,10:09

(Cakedaddy @ Jul. 10 2011,10:33)
QUOTE
I don't see the scope as a huge leap in technology.  They can be made very sturdy, scratch proof, etc.  They can be just as reliable and part of the gun as the iron sites are.  In my opinion.

Reliability and logistics aren't the issue.
Posted by Cakedaddy on Jul. 10 2011,10:21
Well, I'm glad I was issued an M-16, and not a sword.  You know, the basic weapon.  I'll take the technology of modern warfare over the 'basic' shit you guys are pushing.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 10 2011,11:46
Gotta walk before you run.
Posted by Leisher on Jul. 10 2011,21:22
QUOTE
Says the guy who was in the AIR FORCE!  No reliance on technology in that branch!


Guess what I did in basic?

I was put through a training program to get into shape. Learned some hand to hand fighting. Then I got some weapons training.

So yeah, the technology branch knows that its airmen should have some idea on how to defend themselves if the tech fails.

Posted by GORDON on Jul. 10 2011,21:27

(Cakedaddy @ Jul. 10 2011,13:21)
QUOTE
Well, I'm glad I was issued an M-16, and not a sword.  You know, the basic weapon.  I'll take the technology of modern warfare over the 'basic' shit you guys are pushing.

And by the way, we had shitloads of bayonet training.  That's sorta like a sword.
Posted by Cakedaddy on Jul. 11 2011,08:57
When it came to the hand to hand, how confident are you that the training you had would have ANY impact on your odds of surviving an encounter.  We spent about a week on hand to hand, and the moves they trained us on were ridiculous.  Most would NEVER work in real life.  When your opponent LETS you do them to him, they work great.  For them to be of any use what so ever, most people would have to spend many weeks or months practicing them to become any good.  And really, you'd be better off learning karate instead of learning the military moves really good.  So to say the military still trains in hand to hand combat, in my experience, is a DRASTIC overstatement.  Same went for bayonet training.  The moves made sense, but again, it would take weeks/months to master them.  How did you guys do in the q-tip duels?  I got my ass kicked.  I went in trying to perform the moves we were taught.  Cause I thought that's what we were supposed to do.  My opponent just did random whatever shit so his 'bayonet' side would make contact with me somewhere.  So, my military training was worthless.  I should have just done whatever I thought would score a point instead of doing what I was trained to do.

We spent weeks on the firing lines.  We spent hours on hand to hand and bayonet.  And, in all my years of service, I had never even seen a bayonet.  Even when we went to Honduras during the Nicaraguan civil war.  (where the fighting would spill into Honduras, so everyone was armed).  But then, they didn't send our bolts, so, maybe they forgot the bayonet as well.  But ya, "Here's your M-16 because it's a very hostile area.  But, we forgot the bolts at home so we aren't going to bother giving you any ammo."

So, I call shenanigans on you guys trying to act like the military spends any real time on anything but firing weapons.

Posted by thibodeaux on Jul. 11 2011,08:59
My dad was in the Air Force in the early 60s. I asked him what kind of weapons they were taught to use in Basic. He said, "mostly they taught us how to run."
Posted by Cakedaddy on Jul. 11 2011,09:05
When I was in training, we heard that the air force didn't even issue M-16s!
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 11 2011,09:16

(Cakedaddy @ Jul. 11 2011,11:57)
QUOTE
So, I call shenanigans on you guys trying to act like the military spends any real time on anything but firing weapons.

Wow, I should find the "yearbook" I got at the end of Basic that shows a bunch of pictures of our training, and what we trained.  I am in it several times, as I recall.

You're really suggesting that Marine Corps bootcamp and National Guard training are the same thing?  I guess the full 3 months we spend in Basic (and another month in combat training [the main difference is that you no longer call the sergeants "sir"]) is mostly redundant.

I think you are calling "q-tip training" we called "pugil sticks."  About 40 pounds each, a coffee-can sized padded weight on each end.

We squared off platoon vs. platoon, serial deathmatch style.  Each platoon formed a line at each end of a small bridge over a pool of water.  The first guy from each line met in the middle, and it was anything goes until someone was swimming.  The winner stayed on the bridge and the next enemy in line stepped up, repeat.  The catch is that those sticks were so damned heavy, you got tired out fast, so even if your strongest guy was first in line, he wasn't going to have any strength left by the 4th or 5th guy.  I personally beat 3 or 4 guys, and nobody knocked me off the bridge... apparently in the end I was knocked out on my feet, getting beaten over the head like a guy at a carnival with a big mallet trying to ring the bell, and the drill instructor stopped it, woke me up, and told me to jump in the water before I got my head knocked off.  I remember very little of that last part, but I remember almost drowning when I couldn't get my limbs working together in that water that was damned cold.

I used to be a lot more resilient.  Ahh, youth.

Doesn't sound much like "q-tip training" where you are going for points.

And we stabbed the shit out of some bayonet dummies.  We had a couple weeks of hand to hand, which I enjoyed.  DI's kept pairing me up with the monster guys because they enjoyed seeing me get my ass stomped, as I recall.  Had to work hard to chop those guys down.

I wouldn't say it was WORTHLESS in a real combat situation, but it did condition us to, in a full-on battle royale with everyone out of ammo and charlie inside the wire, to not hesitate to scoop out someones eyeballs with your fingers, crush their larynx with your boot, cave in their frontal lobe with the butt of your rifle, decapitate them with your e-tool, etc in order to end the fight quickly.  They teach that in the Guard?

Posted by GORDON on Jul. 11 2011,09:20

(Cakedaddy @ Jul. 11 2011,12:05)
QUOTE
When I was in training, we heard that the air force didn't even issue M-16s!

The joke about the air force in Marine basic was in the 4 weeks of air force basic, the most important thing you learned was how to fold your underwear.

When we made fun of the army guys it was because they got medals for throwing a hand grenade.

Navy guys were just all gay.

Posted by GORDON on Jul. 11 2011,10:39
Let me think waaay back, and try to remember how Marine Corps Boot Camp was structured in 1991:

Keep in mind, there are no nights off, no weekends off, no phone calls, no soda pop, no contact with the outside world at any time, and you are being watched 24/7 by disagreeable Drill Instructors.  For 12+ weeks.  This is a huge part of the mindfuck or Marine Corps bootcamp.

First 2 days: processing.  You get screamed at a lot, your head is shaved, you pull your uniforms and other issue, more hearing tests and shit to make sure your MEPS didn't screw up, assigned platoons.  About 70 guys in our platoon.  High stress.

First week: Receiving.  Until your permanent Drill Instructors (DI) are ready to receive their next platoon, you are in receiving.  Lights are kept on at night just like in jail, you learn how to polish your boots and stuff like that, and you start to learn rudimentary close order drill (COD).  I remember some classes and shots.  Lost our first guy due to a head wound when he woke up forgetting he was on the bottom bunk.  Fat recruits are identified as those who will be on half rations (I don't know how they could do it... I was on full rats, but we burned so many calories every day I still felt constantly hungry for 3 months).

Now real boot camp begins.  This is where Full Metal Jacket opens up, and was highly realistic.

You are introduced to your new DI's, one by one, by the Company Commander.  He leaves.  The door closes.  The screaming begins.  We lost our second guy the first night, the stress got to him.  He just sat down and wouldn't get up.  The MP's came, he was handcuffed and we never saw him again.

12 weeks of boot camp, 3 phases, 4 weeks per phase.

Phase 1 was physical conditioning.  Constant PT.  Running, exercises, etc, with classes in the middle to give you an hour to rest here and there.  And even when you weren't doing PT or in a class, the DIs would find some reason to get pissed and you were still doing pushups or whatever as punishment, the most severe of which would happen in "The Pit" where the dust would rise and make it hard for you to breathe.  We were also issued rifles at this time, taught to clean them, etc.  Lots of COD.  DRILL Instructors are very big on Close Order DRILL.  Our Senior DI had spent time on the Marine Corps; Silent Drill Team, so he was extra demanding... which meant a lot of extra penalty pushups (Called "Getting Bent").

We lost a few guys during Phase 1, usually due to injury.  I think one guy went over the fence toward the San Diego airport, which is adjacent to the MCRD.  Never saw him again.

Phase 2 we went from the Recruit Depot in San Diego up to Camp Pendleton, where the rifle range is.  

I remember the first day was the most creative punishment ever: mattress manual.  It is like rifle manual, with the "Left Shoulder, ARMS.  Right shoulder, ARMS.  PORT... ARMS."  Except you use the mattress off your bunk and it is really heavy and tends to hurt after a while.

Fewer officers up there, so meaner DIs and higher stress.  2 weeks learning how to fire our rifles, and actually qualifying with them.  Physical punishment was actually slightly reduced at this time... if your muscles were shaking due to fatigue, you weren't going to be able to shoot very well.  If you didn't qualify, you got "recycled" back to the next platoon.  One guy fired the minimum score, that I recall... getting recycled, and adding more time on to boot camp, was a fate worse than death.  We were also introduced to life in the field, and had our first "humps," which are long forced marches with a pack.  Humps became the toughest part of my Marine Corps career, and you never stop doing them.  The first hump in Basic was about 7 miles... lots of blisters.  We had a 2 more, the last of which was about 12 miles, and the last mile was on the beach on loose sand.  Blinding pain.  I remember that as one of my 2 most painful humps.

One night during phase 2 the DIs were pissed at us for some reason, so after evening chow, which I distinctly remember being spaghetti, they had us fill both our canteens, and they ordered us to drink til they were empty and then upend them.  Then we drank the second canteen, same thing.  I felt my stomach expanding.  They had us refill our canteens.  We all drank the 3rd canteen... there were groans.  It was when we started on the 4th canteen that the explosive regurgitation started.  As soon as everyone was done hurling diluted spaghetti, the DIs got pissed that there was puke covering the floor of the squad bay, and we got screamed at while cleaning it up.

We lost a couple more guys in Phase 2, mainly due to cellulitis with blisters that were so deep they got infected, but also picked up a couple from earlier platoons that had been recycled.  One guy got discharged because he didn't voluntarily disclose something in his criminal record, and that caught up to him.

Phase 3 you go back down to SanDiego, and you feel like king shit because the rest of the recruits there are brand new and now you feel "salty."  Phase 3 is more PT, obstacle training and the big toys (which at this point were all fun as hell instead of intimidating), hand to hand (includes boxing, pugil sticks, and the karate-type stuff that focuses on doing max damage in a minimum number of moves), and shitloads of COD... all of these things which culminate in testing to make sure you know your shit and can hack it.  Whichever platoon in your series (we had 3) that wins the Close Order Drill competition wins "Honor Platoon."  With our Senior DI being from the Silent Drill Team, we knew we had better win, or just kill ourselves.  So we went ahead and won. You get fitted for your Dress Blues (the rest of your dress uniforms are altered, also.... no one has the same body they came in with) and practice graduation.  There is still stress, but you are used to it now and "It's all down hill from here."  I got my wisdom teeth pulled right before picture day... they only take pictures when they know you'll graduate.  This is why I look extra young in my pic... swollen cheeks from tooth extraction.

You never really stop getting bent during boot camp, but by phase 3 it isn't really scary any more.  You're pretty strong now, and the constant screaming doesn't really phase you any more because once you are no longer afraid of pain, what's the big deal about getting screamed at?  It was about this time period that I realized the constant screaming was to get you conditioned for the chaos of a wartime environment.  Hey, wow, they weren't just screaming at you because they are dicks... they are screaming at you because they are preparing a bunch of Marines for war.  Wow.  The last time they really locked the doors (to keep the officers out) and fucked us up, they knew we were about done because we were literally laughing at most of the punishments because they seemed so damned funny.  Literally laughing at the pain.

We lost at least 1 guy during phase 3, I remember, because he was still sort of a dork and fell off the 60 foot rope slide and broke both his ankles.

We graduated 54 guys, and we had 2 or 3 we didn't start with that we picked up from being recycled.



Posted by GORDON on Jul. 11 2011,11:02
Oh and I forgot hiking up Mount Motherfucker, and rappel/rope training.  And patrolling in formations.  And hard/arm signals.  And I fired my rifle, a SAW, a .50 cal, and an AT-4 anti-tank rocket in Basic.  And hand grenades.  And learned how to deploy mines and claymores.  And how to assault an urban area.  And how to deploy from landing craft and helicopters.  And how to move through the woods in darkness, and not lose your night vision when someone popped a flare.  And basic orienteering.  And a shitload of other things that will come to me later.
Posted by thibodeaux on Jul. 11 2011,11:09
Did you get to drop a mortar round on Tojo and Fuckface?
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 11 2011,11:21

(thibodeaux @ Jul. 11 2011,14:09)
QUOTE
Did you get to drop a mortar round on Tojo and Fuckface?

Ha, I wish.  Never got to play with mortars, but then I wasn't trained by Sgt. Basilone.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 11 2011,11:53
I just googled "National Guard Bootcamp" and learned it lasted 9 weeks, and was actually Army bootcamp.  Peeps in the thread I hit were bragging though about how really infantry training counts so really it is a lot longer.... if we are adding additional combat training, add 4 weeks of "Marine Combat Training" that every Marine gets after Phase 3, and 10 days of leave.  Just like boot camp except your weekends are usually your own time.  You still spend monday through friday of every week in the field training.  Fired lots more guns, played lots more wargames, spent most nights on a hillside on the ground.

So if we're adding that, call it 16 weeks of basic training for the Marine Corps.

But then the infantry guys get another 6 weeks or so of infantry training.  But I don't count that because from MCT I went to 6 weeks of computer entry training, and that was just a drunken party punctuated by 5 mile runs.

But since Guard basic is army basic, now I am just picturing Sgt Hulka and Stripes.  That's a fact, jack.

Posted by Leisher on Jul. 11 2011,12:05
QUOTE
When I was in training, we heard that the air force didn't even issue M-16s!


In basic, no. Once you get to your base, it depends on your job. Also, if you're at certain bases or in combat areas, everyone gets a gun. You are still required to get weapons training, even if you're not carrying one every day.

P.S. We're also the branch with the most jobs that directly equal civilian sector jobs...so yeah, we suck.

QUOTE
The joke about the air force in Marine basic was in the 4 weeks of air force basic, the most important thing you learned was how to fold your underwear.

When we made fun of the army guys it was because they got medals for throwing a hand grenade.

Navy guys were just all gay.


Our jokes were:

Marines - "Body bag fillers", and lots of jokes about their intelligence.

Army - Professional parade marchers and security guards. Most people in the army were there instead of prison.

Navy - Yep, all gay. (Not that there's anything wrong with that!!) There were also a lot of jokes about them being delivery boys since they carry the Marines everywhere.

Coast Guard - Shallow water cowboys

Air Force - Yeah, we're the nerds, but what's wrong with that? Our special forces go through the same training as Navy Seals, and our toys are far more l33t than your toys.

In regards to basic, it's a lot of physical training, screaming, etc., but not to the level of the Marines or the Army. Although, we're probably in line with the Navy. The whole point is to get you to learn how to deal with stress, how to follow and give orders, and pay attention to detail.

Believe it or not, we had someone go AWOL, lost a guy due to lies at MEPS, and lost some folks due to medical (I think one was discharged and one had to sit around and wait for another flight after he healed), but not in the ways Gordon details. Of course, we also had a sister flight. A large group of girls right across the hall, which made basic a lot more interesting.

Posted by Cakedaddy on Jul. 11 2011,13:23
Ya, 1 or 2 weeks of gear and basic military skills (boots, marching, beds, etc) and 8 weeks of actual training.  We had a pit (saw dust and sand) and our q-tips sound like the same as yours.  I just couldn't remember the name.  We fought one on one in the pit for 3 rounds.  First round, I knocked the other guys stick aside and came across his head with the butt end of my stick.  Took his helmet off.  However, I wasn't fast enough and also got stabbed.  Second and third round, he'd just kept jabbing at me to keep me away and eventually his jab would touch me resulting in a 'kill'.  But my point is, the eye gouging, boot stomping, anything that's gonna hurt is a weapon kind of fighting you mention would be reality.  I doubt ANYTHING covered in basic is going to come into play.  It's going to come down to who has the stronger survival instinct.  Running drills and playing with 40lb q-tips isn't going to teach you that.  Not in a couple of weeks.

We also had a steam room.  Heat on full blast, windows closed, PT in full BDU.  That was when we were bad.  Worst night was after one steam room session, a DI found a live M-16 round on the floor.  So, back we went.  Over and over trying to get someone to confess.  No one ever did.

We marched with full packs as well, but not in sand.  I don't remember the distance either.  But I do remember the hills.  Had the same classes, tests, punishments when you fell asleep, etc.

I do remember the differences from when I started to when I finished.  Starting out, packs full of equipment and marching to the barracks.  Was the hardest thing I'd ever done.  They were so heavy and I couldn't see how they expected us to do it.  By the end, making the same march, it was like walking through the mall on a Saturday afternoon.  I couldn't believe how big of a pussy I was that first day.  Basic training was the best thing I ever did for myself.  And I've always said, I learned more about myself, the world and how real life works in 8 weeks at Fort Knox than I did in 4.5 years of college.

But ya, I still think scopes are good.  It's the next natural progression for the weapon.  You can't stop improving on it just so the kids don't stray too far from the 'basics'.

Oh, and until just now, I always thought the 'no M-16 for the Air Force' was just a joke.  I never actually believed it!!  No girls in sight until AIT (skill training), and even then, we were separated, but could intermingle at chow and whatnot.  No classes together.  And I knew the other stuff about transferable skills, etc.  I was just going for the college money.  I pumped gas for the NG.  Which, technically is somewhat transferable to real life as well!  And honestly, I went NG because I had a friend in it already.  Otherwise, I'd have been ANG in Toledo.  As it was, I was Air Cavalry in NG.  I loved flying shit.  Still do.

I got to fire live M-60 rounds from a helicopter at old rusty cars.  Fun.



Posted by GORDON on Jul. 11 2011,15:05

(Cakedaddy @ Jul. 11 2011,16:23)
QUOTE
We also had a steam room.  Heat on full blast, windows closed, PT in full BDU.  That was when we were bad.  Worst night was after one steam room session, a DI found a live M-16 round on the floor.  So, back we went.  Over and over trying to get someone to confess.  No one ever did.

Ooooohhh that reminds me.

During Phase 2 we qualified in the gas chamber.

Wasn't a huge deal.... we just learned all about the gas masks we had been carrying around, learned how to live in them for long periods, how to change the cartridges without inhaling gas and dying, etc, culminating with a trip into the gas chamber.

First they marched us into the active chamber with our masks on, to show us that the masks WILL work and to give us confidence in using them.

Then they had us remove masks, take a deep breath of the CS gas, and whoever panics gets their asses kicked and we all have to stand in there breathing it until the spaz calms down.  Fortunately nobody spazzed, and we all breathed deep for a few minutes, all of our respiratory mucous membranes in overdrive trying to handle the gas molecules.

When we exited the chamber we all had snot-cicles.  And yes, I now know I can stay calm if I get tear gassed.  

Anyway, here's the funny part: we speed march back to the barracks, a mile or two... and the DIs take us into the shower room and turn on the hot water spigots, getting it nice and steamy.  Now, don't get excited guys, it isn't gaysexual... but they had us strip off our cami tops, and shake real hard... the CS gas molecules that had been clinging to our clothes went free, and we were gas-chambering all over again except now in a steam chamber getting yelled at and bent and no masks.

Good times.

Posted by TheCatt on Jul. 11 2011,16:54
Once in college, we had a 2-keg party, but ran out of beer at like 1am, so we had hot chicks go around and ask everyone for money.

then, another time, we were really high and we didn't have any pizza.



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