Topic: General "Unions" thread
started by: Leisher
Posted by Leisher on Feb. 17 2011,20:52
< Dems flee state to avoid vote. >Read the article. It's kind of anti-Republican, and seems to martyr the Dems until you get to the final few paragraphs. That's where all the details of what is under debate are actually discussed, and well, the measures seem to make sense.
I realize change is tough. I realize teachers get paid shit and get little respect. However, these people need to realize that the changes to their compensation would still make it better than almost everyone in the private sector. Plus, it'll avoid layoffs and help balance the state's economy.
On top of that, they won't be forced to pay union dues. I know a metric fuckton of teachers here in Ohio who have recently learned just how worthless their unions are and have openly wondered why they've been paying dues for years.
Again, taking less than what you're currently getting is a tough pill to swallow, but this specific bill isn't that bad. And what's the alternative? Borrow more money to pay wages? Put the state farther in debt? Watch 6,000 of the 25,000 protesters lose their jobs in budget cuts? Fuck the students over with fewer teachers and crowded classrooms? Maybe they can help drive the state into bankruptcy!
If they were in the private sector, not only would their compensation packages never have been that good, but at $300 million in the red, they'd be unemployed.
(Cue sarcasm) What was the name of that Republican who said "Ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country?"
Posted by GORDON on Feb. 17 2011,21:02
Facebook is lighting up tonight with people posting this:"I am a public employee. I am not the problem. Our retirement fund lost billions in wall street speculations that went awry. I followed the rules. Your community's teachers, police officers, paramedics, firefighters, child welfare, street, highway workers & others are NOT the enemy. We live here, pay taxes, work hard & are trying to support our families, too. If you are a public employee and agree, copy and repost"
Would be easy to be snarky.
Posted by Leisher on Feb. 18 2011,10:16
Updates:< Police are hunting for the Dems. >
This is ridiculous. How much more money will be wasted because of political games like this one? The Republicans are wrong to send out cops to look for the Dems, just as the Dems are wrong to hold up their state government when they know this bill will pass no matter what they do.
-Word is starting to leak out that not all the protesters are from Wisconsin... Why would anyone else be there you ask?
-Other states are closely watching what happens in Wisconsin because if this passes (and it will), and is a success, a lot of other states are going to do the same thing.
-Obama thinks the bill is more about attacking unions than balancing the budget.
The more I read about this bill, the more I agree with it.
Posted by GORDON on Feb. 18 2011,10:25
I thought everyone knew unions trucked in more people when it was time to protest, to make it look like more people like them.
Posted by Leisher on Feb. 18 2011,14:10
< Dems now saying they might stay away for weeks. >No word on whether or not they're forfeit their tax payer funded salaries and pay back this tax payer funded "protest".
Posted by Leisher on Feb. 22 2011,10:03
Update: < The governor is warning of layoffs if Dems don't come back soon. >I'm amazed that these Dems have been shutting down their government, and abandoning the jobs they were elected to do, and the MSM is trying to paint them as heroes.
Nowhere has it been asked or reported about them giving back their salaries during this leave of absence. Nowhere has it been discussed about what their families are doing while these idiots are out of state.
More importantly, nowhere, and I mean fucking nowhere, has the Dems' alternatives been spelled out. Your state is 3.6 billion in the hole. The governor and the Republicans are trying to cut spending. Where are your proposals to cut spending?
Posted by Malcolm on Feb. 22 2011,11:01
Why does a handful of malcontents walking out bring things to a screeching halt? Isn't there some sub-sub-sub-subrule somewhere that says if legislators willingly miss daily voting, debate, etc., that they've effectively forfeited their chance to have an effect? If I delivered an ultimatum not to work until everyone thought my way, I'd be fired in fairly short order.Call a referendum in the next week. Have the state vote whether or not they give a fuck if a dozen jackasses decided to up and leave.
Posted by GORDON on Feb. 22 2011,12:19
Cancel their direct deposit and watch how fast the come back to get their checks.
Posted by GORDON on Feb. 22 2011,20:02
(GORDON @ Feb. 22 2011,15:19)
QUOTE
Cancel their direct deposit and watch how fast the come back to get their checks.
Ha!
< http://www2.wnct.com/news....-804243 >
Posted by Leisher on Feb. 23 2011,07:28
< Gotta love this biased headline. >Just in case they change it later, the headline is:
QUOTE
Wis. Democrats filibuster to delay anti-union bill
Not "Wis. Dems filibuster to delay critical budget cuts" or "Wis. Dems filibuster to delay contentious bill", etc. No, the writer went with the "anti-union". Although in their defense, at least they had the stones to point this out:
QUOTE
The governor says the bill is needed to help solve the state's looming budget deficit, but Democrats see it as an all-out assault on unions, their staunchest campaign ally.
Yeah, that admission of a self serving motivation by the Dems comes in the 7th paragraph, but at least it's in there.
Posted by TheCatt on Feb. 23 2011,07:52
QUOTE
State senators who miss two or more session days will no longer get paid through direct deposit. They'll have to pick up their checks in person on the Senate floor during a session.
LOL
Posted by TPRJones on Feb. 23 2011,17:41
(Leisher @ Feb. 22 2011,12:03)
QUOTE
More importantly, nowhere, and I mean fucking nowhere, has the Dems' alternatives been spelled out. Your state is 3.6 billion in the hole. The governor and the Republicans are trying to cut spending. Where are your proposals to cut spending?
From what I understand, the unions and missing Dems have agreed to every measure that the Governor has proposed except for the one where the unions get shut down permanently. But that's not good enough for him, because this isn't about money as much as it is about getting those unions shut down.
I've heard that reported in many many places.
Posted by Leisher on Feb. 23 2011,20:04
QUOTE
From what I understand, the unions and missing Dems have agreed to every measure that the Governor has proposed except for the one where the unions get shut down permanently. But that's not good enough for him, because this isn't about money as much as it is about getting those unions shut down.
I've heard that reported in many many places.
I've heard that reported in many many places.
Please link one. Not doubting you, but I'd like to read it. I've only seen that the union was willing to take an 8% pay cut. I've also seen that one of the Republicans was suggesting making the ban on collective bargaining temporary.
Posted by TPRJones on Feb. 23 2011,20:34
This is the first one that comes to mind (you can skip ahead to 0:53 if you like):But here's a couple of others I Googled up that are a little more explicit about it:
< http://timesdelphic.com/2011....nt-cuts >
QUOTE
Last week legislation introduced plans to cut government employees take-home pay by 8 percent. Government employees in Wisconsin will also have to pay 5.6 percent more toward their pension and 12 percent more toward their health insurance. In light of the deficit, affected Wisconsin unions have already conceded these cuts; the real hullabaloo in Madison is over the governor’s insistence of removing collective bargaining.
< http://voices.washingtonpost.com/plum-li....ep.html >
QUOTE
As you know, the Wisconsin public employee unions have agreed to accept the wage and benefit reductions that Walker has asked for, in exchange for dropping his proposal to roll back their bargaining rights. Walker has refused.
Now, I'm not a fan of unions at all. In fact I think busting up these government unions is probably a good idea. But I'm not liking the approach being taken here to do it. It's a bit disingenuous. I'd rather the Governor come right out and say it's the primary goal here instead of pretending it's all about the budget.
Posted by GORDON on Feb. 23 2011,20:41
What I don't understand is why any company/state government/whatever allows itself to get entangled within a union. Unions/collective bargaining should be perfectly legal and acceptable, but the entity hiring people should have, in my opinion, as much right to say, "I won't hire anyone who wants to collectively bargain."I don't get it.
Posted by TPRJones on Feb. 23 2011,20:55
Generally they do, unless there are state or local laws against it (which as far as I know are pretty rare). But when a union is really dug in they don't have much choice. All the people who have the needed skills are union. And if there are some people who can cross the lines and do a good job, then the strong-arm tactics come in to play and it gets really ugly. It can get downright illegal, but if the cops are pro-union who's going to protect the company and scags from retribution? Not to mention the PR problems that can come up in those areas where so many of your potential customers are going to be pro-union.No, better to build your company somewhere else where unions aren't so strong. Too bad if that hurts the economy where the unions are, the unions sure as hell don't care. As long as they get their dues and their power, that's all they care about.
Posted by Leisher on Feb. 24 2011,06:08
Thanks TPR I hadn't seen any of that. Of course, there's a counter to it. Granted it does seem like Walker is on a mission to kill the union, but one could easily point out that he has motive to make this decision without that being his primary goal.
For one thing, he didn't go after ALL public employee unions. Remember, the firefighters and cops aren't a part of this mess and they have unions (the Ohio bill does include them).
For another, who cares if the teachers' union is willing to make these concessions now? What will they ask for during their next labor negotiations? That's the big problem. 3.6 billion in debt isn't going to disappear overnight and anyone who thinks the union won't be trying to get back what they're giving up now in the next negotiations is delusional.
I believe the real compromise is from the Republican state senator who offered a proposal where the ban on collective bargaining would be temporary. Walker shot that down.
I wouldn't cry for any union that gets busted, but in this case, if Walker wants to end this situation, save some face, help prove it's about the deficit and not breaking the union, etc. then I think making that compromise would be in his best interest. Just don't put a date on the end of the ban, instead tie it to the state's deficit somehow. Make it so when the state is healthy again the union can negotiate again.
Posted by GORDON on Mar. 10 2011,07:11
I guess this is the Rhetoric of When You Lose a Vote You Get to Riot and Storm the State House. Posted by Leisher on Mar. 10 2011,07:28
< The legislation has passed. >I don't think either side handled this very well.
I found it interesting that over the past few days Walker switched gears and was willing to compromise, while the Dems also switched gears and raised their demands. I think that was the final straw.
I actually was going to post the article about the compromise yesterday, but never got around to it. I thought it was a great example of "give them an inch, and they'll take a mile" because he was apparently willing to back down on just about everything including allowing collective bargaining on their wages (unlimited), and the Dems were saying it wasn't enough. They said they wanted to be able to negotiate sick days and vacation time too.
The Dems had a deal in front of them and instead of compromising, which is what they claim they've wanted all along, they decided to try to get even more and not meet the Republicans half way.
Guess who paid the price in the end? Their supporters.
I wonder if the MSM will play up that angle or ignore it...
Posted by thibodeaux on Mar. 11 2011,16:40
< More hate from Right-Wing Haters. >Or something.
Posted by TPRJones on Mar. 11 2011,16:47
Stay classy, Wisconsin.
Posted by GORDON on Mar. 14 2011,16:54
(thibodeaux @ Mar. 11 2011,19:40)
QUOTE
< More hate from Right-Wing Haters. >
Or something.
Or something.
FUll media blackout on death threats to republican lawmakers.
< http://www.newsbusters.org/blogs....blicans >
See, only the right (especially Sarah Palin) can engage in HATE FILLED RHETORIC. So this isn't news, because it doesn't exist.
Posted by GORDON on Mar. 18 2011,10:55
Judge blocks the new law.< http://www.jsonline.com/blogs/news/118242109.html >
Posted by Leisher on Mar. 24 2011,21:49
The Wisconsin fight is still going on despite the MSM no longer paying attention. Ohio is still going through their similar fight.
Now a town in California < has their own anti-union controversy. >
Posted by GORDON on Mar. 29 2011,05:31
Union violence continues, media continues to look the other way.< http://www.startribune.com/opinion/commentary/118684099.html >
Posted by Leisher on Apr. 06 2011,11:45
The election of a Wisconsin Supreme Court seat became a battleground for union supporters.< Article. >
More interesting was this quote from the article:
QUOTE
The law's opponents hope a Kloppenburg victory will tilt the Supreme Court to the left and set the stage for the court to strike down the law.
That right there sums up everything wrong with our judicial system, and the writer of the article doesn't see the problem with it.
Posted by GORDON on Apr. 06 2011,12:11
And the election was a squeeker, which means it will be recounted, and lately recounts seem to always swing toward the left.
Posted by GORDON on Apr. 07 2011,16:13
I read this morning that the Democrat judge declared victory and won by 204 votes, before they did a recount. I thought that was sort of cheeky.< http://hotair.com/archive....4-votes >
Right now I am reading that there was a computer error and the republican won by 7k votes.
< http://www.nationalreview.com/corner....ristian >
I am expecting lawsuits to try to keep votes from that entire city to not be counted. Well, predicting. I'd bet a dollar, anyway.
Posted by GORDON on Apr. 07 2011,16:20
Here's a second article.< http://www.foxnews.com/politic....estnews >
Yeah, bitch declared victory with a 204 vote lead, before the recount. Dumbass.
Posted by GORDON on Apr. 07 2011,16:36
The roaches are scurrying to cast doubt, using "quotes" and such when they say votes were "found."< http://www.dailykos.com/story....Prosser >
Posted by GORDON on Apr. 27 2011,07:20
Uh oh, another red, flyover, jesus-land state is trying to limit union power.Oh, I mean Massachusetts.
< http://www.boston.com/news....th_care >
Posted by Malcolm on Apr. 27 2011,10:47
So if the donkeys there are leading the charge ... then exactly who's the AFL-CIO going to bribe to make shit go their way? The pachyderms?
Posted by GORDON on May 03 2011,18:48
U of Missouri ‘Labor Studies’ Course Teaches How to Shut Down Non-Union Companies with frivolous lawsuits.Took a page from the "Harrass Sarah Palin" playbook.
Posted by Malcolm on May 03 2011,19:38
Mizzou or UMSL?
Posted by GORDON on Jun. 14 2011,17:55
WI Supreme Court rules the lower court's blocking of the "anti-union" Bill was so wrong that they have proven themselves to be idiots.< http://wicourts.gov/sc....o=66078 >
Commentary:
QUOTE
Generally, when a higher court calls bullshit on a lower one, it's called a remand, a declaration that the lower court got it wrong, and to try again.
...the court ruled here ab initio, which (context clues, it's been forever since I did anything law-oriented) means it's expunged from memory altogether as being improperly entertained from the start, which means there is no remand to the lower court to try again. The higher court has said "Not only did you get this wrong, you got it so wrong we don't trust you with another bite at the apple, so we're directing your decision from here. It's over. Done. Finished. Kaput."
...the court ruled here ab initio, which (context clues, it's been forever since I did anything law-oriented) means it's expunged from memory altogether as being improperly entertained from the start, which means there is no remand to the lower court to try again. The higher court has said "Not only did you get this wrong, you got it so wrong we don't trust you with another bite at the apple, so we're directing your decision from here. It's over. Done. Finished. Kaput."
Posted by Malcolm on Jun. 14 2011,18:49
After the ab initio, we have this gem...QUOTE
This court has granted the petition for an original action because one of the courts that we are charged with supervising has usurped the legislative power which the Wisconsin Constitution grants exclusively to the legislature.
and
QUOTE
The court noted that “[i]f a court can intervene and prohibit the publication of an act, the court determines what shall be law and not the legislature. If the court does that, it does not in terms legislate but it invades the constitutional power of the legislature to declare what shall become law. This [a court] may not do.”
and actually naming names...
QUOTE
In hastily reaching judgment, Justice Patience D. Roggensack, Justice Annette K. Ziegler, and Justice Michael J. Gableman author an order, joined by Justice David T. Prosser, lacking a reasoned, transparent analysis and incorporating numerous errors of law and fact. This kind of order seems to open the court unnecessarily to the charge that the majority has reached a pre-determined conclusion not based on the facts and the law, which undermines the majority's ultimate decision.
Posted by Leisher on Aug. 11 2011,07:26
< Republican Recalls in Wisconsin >Remember these? The Dems and the unions really pushed for this during the Wisconsin fiasco. Millions upon millions were spent by both sides. The Dems and unions expected a clean sweep because "everyone is on their side", but only won 2 of 6. The two they won were areas where the Republican had barely won the first time.
Very demoralizing. Too bad they couldn't bus in voters like they bussed in protestors, huh?
This issue kind of died down a lot, even here in Ohio where State Bill 5 is a hot topic, but I think seeing these recall results is going to be a green light for politicians to take a similar stance.
Next up, the recall elections of two Democrats.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 11 2011,07:38
I have been watching that, and I silently predicted Dems would not win the recalls, overall. I still think the majority is against the public union employees soaking up three times the wages and benefits of private citizens doing the same job.I was a little concerned about all the out-of-state "support" flooding in. The public money, and the secret extra votes. I guess it wasn't enough. Basically the democrats and unions spent twice as much money as the republicans, and the republicans still won.
Posted by GORDON on Aug. 16 2011,23:13
Non-unionized electrical company owner shot by union guy who had just spray-painted "scab" on his car.< http://www.redstate.com/laborun....igating >
In Toledo.
Wonderful.
Posted by TPRJones on Aug. 17 2011,04:55
That's what happens when you piss off the mafia.
Posted by Leisher on Aug. 17 2011,07:37
I heard that if you Google "union related violence" it actually slows the internet down because there are so many items found.The best part of union violence is that nobody on that side of the political spectrum says one negative thing about it. The left constantly calls the right a bunch of hate mongering violent nut jobs yet one of their core support groups is more violent than anyone on the right.
The thing that really drives me nuts about the unions is that a typical union member (and forgive me for stereotyping) is narrow minded, likely to have racist tendencies, is a flag waving patriot, probably doesn't dig the gays, hates foreigners and their cultures, is sick and tired of watching minorities get free educations and such while they have to bust their ass to put their kids through school (yes, I've actually heard that conversation), is religious, etc., etc.
Basically, they are the exact opposite of liberals, progressives, and the political left. And I'm not calling the right racist, narrow minded, etc., I'm simply pointing out that those are traits the left loves to apply to the right, and claim they've risen above.
So even though your typical union guy wants less government in his life, wants to pay less taxes, thinks the free handouts should end, wants to see the US as less of a follower and more of a leader internationally, etc. they vote Democrat because they are completely brainwashed into thinking that if their union falls then the evil fat cats will drop their salary to 10 cents an hour, and they'll lose all of their benefits.
If union members could collectively pull their heads out of their asses they'd see that the real problem is their own leadership. I'm pretty sure one union did that a few years ago? Didn't one of the biggest unions in the country have half of its members file some big petition telling their leadership to stop spending union money on Democrat candidates or something to that effect?
Posted by TPRJones on Aug. 17 2011,14:53
Down here we call them Yellow Dog Democrats, and it's the only reason any Democrat gets elected to anything in the state outside of Austin and certain primarily hispanic or african american districts in Houston.More on point, loyal unionists are idiots. If a company tried to seriously slash their wages just because they deunionized, they'd lose all their employees. All that labor available on the market coupled with increased product demand due to the major supplier shutting down for lack of employees would open up the market for new and better companies to compete, and then they'd need to hire those same workers. And typically if they are trying to attract new workers, they'll pay better to get them at least at first. So it will result in less job security, but in the end it's better for the local economy to churn through companies like that from time to time.
But these old union guys can't see that sort of thing. They still expect to work for the same company until the day they die. But that's just not how the world works anymore in most industries.
Posted by GORDON on Sep. 05 2011,08:11
Apparently unions are sinking the US Post Office, since according to this article labor is 80% of their costs.< http://www.nytimes.com/2011...._r=2&hp >
Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 06 2011,07:12
QUOTE
“We’re going to fight this and we’re going to fight it hard,” said Cliff Guffey, president of the American Postal Workers Union, which represents 207,000 mail sorters and post office clerks. “It’s illegal for them to abrogate our contract.”
I hope they do. Ideally they'll take down the whole postal service with them. Then UPS or FedEx or somebody will step in to fill the gap they leave in the marketplace, and we'll have private mail service instead.
Posted by GORDON on Sep. 06 2011,09:38
Posted by GORDON on Oct. 20 2011,06:13
Are all truck drivers union? If so, here's a nice blow against them:< http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/44971132/#.TqAeLXIrYpF >
Posted by TPRJones on Oct. 20 2011,06:20
QUOTE
Teamsters union president James Hoffa
Really? The leader of the Teamsters for all this time is the son of Jimmy Hoffa? And they wonder why everyone assumes they're mafia?
Posted by GORDON on Nov. 01 2011,08:49
Pelosi: SC Boeing plant should unionize, or shut down.< http://blog.heritage.org/2011....ut-down >
Posted by TPRJones on Nov. 01 2011,09:46
And people wonder why companies choose to go overseas. Bah.Give a Democrat a goose that lays golden eggs, and they'll be having foie gras before dinner.
Posted by TheCatt on Nov. 01 2011,10:56
Occupy Oakland is calling for a general strike, tomorrow, I think. Be interesting to see what happens.
Posted by GORDON on Feb. 08 2012,18:22
This is my brother-in-law testifying before congress about how much unions suck. Posted by GORDON on Feb. 08 2012,18:27
This is him being interviewed on Fox News.< http://video.foxnews.com/v/1441334529001/ >
Posted by TPRJones on Feb. 09 2012,07:14
He seems pretty nice for a commie union guy.
Posted by GORDON on Feb. 10 2012,08:47
He was on another Fox News show. I think this is the new clip.< http://usamericanfreedom.com/2012....-rights >
I always liked that side of her family better. Less crazy over there, and they are all pretty funny.
Posted by GORDON on Apr. 23 2012,13:44
< http://dailycaller.com/2012....print=1 >QUOTE
Labor union sues Indiana, calls working alongside nonunion employees ‘slavery’
...
Indiana’s law prohibits employers from making union membership a condition of getting or keeping a job. The union’s February lawsuit claimed the law violated its members’ Fourteenth Amendment guarantee of “equal protection” under the law.
But an amended complaint filed on Wednesday added a Thirteenth Amendment claim as well. The new lawsuit suggests that when nonunion employees earn higher salaries and better benefits because of the union’s negotiation on behalf of its members, the union has been forced to work for those nonunion employees for free.
And being forced to work without compensation, the union suggested in its revised lawsuit, is slavery.
...
Indiana’s law prohibits employers from making union membership a condition of getting or keeping a job. The union’s February lawsuit claimed the law violated its members’ Fourteenth Amendment guarantee of “equal protection” under the law.
But an amended complaint filed on Wednesday added a Thirteenth Amendment claim as well. The new lawsuit suggests that when nonunion employees earn higher salaries and better benefits because of the union’s negotiation on behalf of its members, the union has been forced to work for those nonunion employees for free.
And being forced to work without compensation, the union suggested in its revised lawsuit, is slavery.
wtf
Posted by TPRJones on Apr. 23 2012,16:33
so much wtfery
Posted by Leisher on Jun. 06 2012,06:07
Walker kept his seat in the recall vote. Democrats and union leaders pulled no punches in trying to get him removed. This was the most expensive election in history, and the unions lost. What's the political message coming out of this situation? Are we, as a nation, finally ready to get rid of the corruption that is unions?
Posted by GORDON on Jun. 06 2012,06:21
Palin got run out of Alaska with frivolous lawsuits, because of a law saying that the state would not pay for lawyers for the governor to defend against lawsuits. Does Wisconsin have a law like that?
Posted by GORDON on Jun. 06 2012,16:36
In honor of the hippie tears today, I am playing the album, "Wisconsin Death Trip" by Static X.
Posted by Leisher on Sep. 14 2012,23:08
< Judge throws out the law. >The really shocking thing? The article's writer never mentions the political leaning of the judge.
The governor does, but the "journalist" doesn't.
Must have been an oversight since every article where a conservative judge does something starts off with "a conservative", "who is conservative", "might as well be Bush", or something similar.
Posted by GORDON on Jan. 24 2013,09:29
Striking NYC school bus drivers slash the tires on the busses. Claim it is for child safety.< http://www.jammiewf.com/2013....n-buses >
Posted by GORDON on Jan. 24 2013,09:30
Teacher Union in Michigan suing teachers for unpaid dues.< http://networkedblogs.com/HtXQc >
Posted by Leisher on Feb. 11 2013,11:01
< Obama's 1% planned raise for federal workers (unionized) "not enough". >I was referred to this link by someone who pointed out that unionized federal workers average pay is now higher than those folks in the private sector.
That's bad, Mmk?
Posted by TheCatt on Feb. 19 2014,09:09
You know what will make higher education better and more affordable? < Unions >Wait...
Posted by GORDON on Mar. 05 2014,15:50
(GORDON @ Feb. 08 2012,21:22)
QUOTE
This is my brother-in-law testifying before congress about how much unions suck.
Now he's running for congress.
< https://www.facebook.com/pages....7432062 >
Posted by Leisher on Mar. 24 2014,08:21
< Subaru dealer deals with union protestors brilliantly. >
Posted by GORDON on Mar. 24 2014,09:49
That's pretty great.
Posted by Vince on Mar. 24 2014,10:45
That was awesome