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Forum: Internet Links Topic: Catholics started by: Leisher Posted by Leisher on May 07 2010,11:43
I really pissed someone off at lunch Wednesday when I bashed the Catholic church for their cover up of priests molesting little boys. In my humble opinion, there is no defense for it. The church is flawed and committed a terrible crime against children and their families all over the planet. The latest pope stepping up to admit the cover up, and IF they decide to kick the offending priests out of the church (why are they even debating this?) would be nice steps towards healing and regaining some credibility. Another great move would be to allow their priests to have sex and get married, but that's for another day. Anyway the pope signaling a major shift towards reality for the Catholic Church, but as Penn Gillette says < "And then there's this asshole!" > Posted by Malcolm on May 07 2010,13:48
(Leisher @ May 07 2010,13:43) QUOTE Anyway the pope signaling a major shift towards reality for the Catholic Church, but as Penn Gillette says < "And then there's this asshole!" > The fact that complete loons like that are allowed to hold some of the highest offices in that organization undermines any moral authority they claim to have (if they had that much to begin with). If they had their way, they'd still be converting by the sword, holding inquisitions, and executing heretics. Till they open up the Vatican archives & make public all their secret materials, they can suck my balls. Posted by TheCatt on May 07 2010,14:48
I really don't get much about people joining organized religions.
Posted by Malcolm on May 07 2010,14:55
(TheCatt @ May 07 2010,16:48) QUOTE I really don't get much about people joining organized religions. It's almost always easier to let someone else tell you how to live instead of deciding for yourself. If it turns out to be wrong, you can blame them instead of admitting your own fuck up. QUOTE "Who's more foolish : the fool or the fool who follows?"
Posted by GORDON on May 07 2010,15:15
(TheCatt @ May 07 2010,17:48) QUOTE I really don't get much about people joining organized religions. The entire concept is baffling to me, but talking about it just results in hurt feelings so better to keep my mouth shut. Posted by Vince on May 09 2010,05:45
Catholics have been heavily targetted. Not that the church didn't screw the pooch in their handling of the incidents, but there are much higher rates of molestation among your kids' teachers than there are among priests.
Posted by Leisher on May 09 2010,07:56
QUOTE Catholics have been heavily targetted. To be fair, it's not Catholics, it's the Catholic Church. I don't think the people who follow the religion condone this behavior. This is a criticism of the church organization, not the folks who are members. QUOTE Not that the church didn't screw the pooch in their handling of the incidents, but there are much higher rates of molestation among your kids' teachers than there are among priests. Schools aren't covering it up and retaining the offending teachers. They also aren't giving them access to other kids. That part is the key to why people are bashing the church so hard. Because maybe teachers do molest more kids, but it doesn't matter because when they're caught, they're punished. They're not just relocated and hidden. And in all honesty, even if you had numbers to prove teachers molest more kids, you should know that even the stat experts say the numbers are most likely wrong. Why? Well, the big unknown about the church scandal is how many kids didn't come forward. Most people don't like stepping in front of the whole world and declaring "I was molested." Plus, it's important to remember that we only hear about stuff in the U.S. How many kids have been molested by priests in other countries? (And to keep it fair, teachers?) Posted by GORDON on May 09 2010,08:01
And the U.N.
Posted by Vince on May 09 2010,15:22
(Leisher @ May 09 2010,09:56) QUOTE Schools aren't covering it up and retaining the offending teachers. They also aren't giving them access to other kids. Um... yes they are. < http://post-gazette.com/regionstate/19991031newabuse1.asp > QUOTE And in all honesty, even if you had numbers to prove teachers molest more kids, you should know that even the stat experts say the numbers are most likely wrong. Why? Well, the big unknown about the church scandal is how many kids didn't come forward. Most people don't like stepping in front of the whole world and declaring "I was molested." Plus, it's important to remember that we only hear about stuff in the U.S. How many kids have been molested by priests in other countries? (And to keep it fair, teachers?) And the things that might influence a kid to NOT come forward if molested by a priest aren't in play when molested by a teacher? If anything, I'd say the kid molested by the teacher is even less likely to come forward than the kid molested by the priest. The kid molested by the priest has maybe a handful of people at church that know him. The kid molested by the teacher risks all his peers finding out. But my point was more about the media than anything. The church is evil. Teachers are part of the state and the state is good and caring and all knowing and providing. And when they touch your pee-pee it's because they really, really care. Posted by Malcolm on May 10 2010,07:43
QUOTE The kid molested by the priest has maybe a handful of people at church that know him. The kid molested by the teacher risks all his peers finding out. Maybe a handful? Maybe the kid at school has a really small class or something. You're arguing over which is worse by how many people find out about it? QUOTE Reads pretty much the same to me. Posted by Leisher on May 10 2010,12:44
QUOTE Um... yes they are. < http://post-gazette.com/regionstate/19991031newabuse1.asp[/QUOTE] > Good find, but these are different animals. I absolutely agree that certain folks are going to have gotten lighter sentences or got caught without a ton of evidence allowing them to do it again. However a single authority is not making the call to move them from school to school and orchestrating a huge cover up. QUOTE And the things that might influence a kid to NOT come forward if molested by a priest aren't in play when molested by a teacher? If anything, I'd say the kid molested by the teacher is even less likely to come forward than the kid molested by the priest. The kid molested by the priest has maybe a handful of people at church that know him. The kid molested by the teacher risks all his peers finding out. I completely disagree with this one for a few reasons. 1. A lot of the molesting teachers are female. As we've been seeing the young boys molested by them are always out bragging about it. That's how they get caught. IE: The molested kid(s) isn't too worried about what their peers think. (And if you want to talk about unfair treatment by the MSM and society, look no further than female teachers who molest students.) 2. I totally disagree with your reasoning where the kid would worry about who is going to find out. Unless the kid is going to another town for worship, he most likely is going to a church within his own neighborhood/community. That kid isn't trying to rationalize who will find out, they're thinking EVERYONE is going to find out. 3. God. A teacher is an adult that instructs you in science, math, history, etc. A priest is a man spreading the word of God. Compare the two in most communities and you'll find the priest is far more respected and trusted (right or wrong). Kids in religious families are constantly told about God and his powers. they're taken to church every Sunday and watch their parents get lectured by this man. Do you honestly think they'd be more afraid to tell someone their teacher touched them inappropriately then their priest? QUOTE Teachers are part of the state and the state is good and caring and all knowing and providing. And when they touch your pee-pee it's because they really, really care. Malcolm's response pretty much sums up what I was going to say. Again Vince, I'm not attacking the religion or those that follow it. I'm attacking the organization behind the religion. And honestly, trying to compare molestations and their cover ups at schools and at churches is ridiculously silly. Both are horrific and indefensible. Neither is better or worse than the other. Maybe the MSM is covering one or the other unfairly, but that doesn't justify anything. The Catholic Church was wrong, and even the pope admits it. Any schools doing the same are also wrong. End of story. Posted by Vince on May 10 2010,18:10
Leisher, I don't disagree with the points you're making about the church screwing up at all. The point I'm making is that 69% of molestation of kids occurs by someone that's somehow involved with the kids school (teachers, teachers aids, bus drivers), and what do we know about that? Kind of like how more toddlers die by drowning in 5 gallon buckets of water every year than by accidental shootings, but the media is going to make the guns out to be a bigger threat to your kids.
Posted by TPRJones on May 11 2010,07:09
(GORDON @ May 07 2010,17:15) QUOTE (TheCatt @ May 07 2010,17:48) QUOTE I really don't get much about people joining organized religions. The entire concept is baffling to me, but talking about it just results in hurt feelings so better to keep my mouth shut. Fuck that noise. I'll call an asshole and asshole when I see 'em. Same goes for idiots. If I piss off a a friend enough to no longer be friends, then they weren't worth having as friends in the first place. I keep my tongue in check at work, but then so do the religious nuts I have working around me. If they start proselytizing, I will start criticizing. Until then I will accept an uneasy truce in return for a paycheck. Posted by TPRJones on May 11 2010,07:11
(Leisher @ May 09 2010,09:56) QUOTE This is a criticism of the church organization, not the folks who are members. Oh, so it's not a criticizing of the people that fund the entire organization, that give it the resources and power to continue screwing people over? Because Catholics aren't pedos, they only pay for others to do the pedoing? Well, that's okay then. Posted by Cakedaddy on May 11 2010,09:28
And that's all the church does. . . pay for people to be pedos.Take out the religious part, and churches still do a lot of good for communities, etc. Yes, they have their fair share of corruption, psychos, etc. To say that every religious person is evil simply because a few of them are idiots is dumb. But I'm not pissed at all Catholics because they funded an organization that had pedos. That's just ridiculous. That being said, I do hold the church/pastors/priests to a higher standard than I do teachers, etc. So, yes, I expect more from them and feel it's worse when a priest molests a child than when a teacher does it. The crime is the same, but the breech of trust is greater with the priest, in my opinion. I would have expected more from the church than for them to protect their bottom line. Posted by Cakedaddy on May 11 2010,09:35
(Vince @ May 10 2010,11:10) QUOTE Kind of like how more toddlers die by drowning in 5 gallon buckets of water every year than by accidental shootings What's your source? Not disputing, I want to use this, and I want to be able to say something other than "I know this because Vince on the message board said so!" **I'm betting I get an answer from Thib before Vince cause Thib probably has stuff like this bookmarked. Posted by TheCatt on May 11 2010,09:44
Nah, Thib just memorizes everything. He was on Jeopardy, dontchaknow?
Posted by Malcolm on May 11 2010,10:27
I simply must see that episode if it still exists.
Posted by Cakedaddy on May 11 2010,11:00
(TheCatt @ May 11 2010,02:44) QUOTE Nah, Thib just memorizes everything. He was on Jeopardy, dontchaknow? I did not know. Did he win money? Or just the home version of Jeopardy? Posted by TheCatt on May 11 2010,11:48
Crap, maybe I wasn't supposed to tell everyone.
Posted by Cakedaddy on May 11 2010,12:03
Must have just been the home version then. :-)
Posted by TPRJones on May 11 2010,12:41
(Cakedaddy @ May 11 2010,11:28) QUOTE Yes, they have their fair share of corruption, psychos, etc. To say that every religious person is evil simply because a few of them are idiots is dumb. But I'm not pissed at all Catholics because they funded an organization that had pedos. That's just ridiculous. I would consider any Catholic that does not speak out against the actions of the church on this matter to be just as at fault as I consider Muslims who do not speak out against Islamic terrorists. We look pretty poorly on anyone who funds terrorists, even indirectly. Is funding pedos less offensive? Now, that having been said, I would really only be so strict in this interpretation if a Catholic goes to a church where there's a priest that has been so accused and then protected in a questionable manner, and they still attend and tithe and say nothing. And I don't have anything more against Catholics in general than I have against Christians in general. It is in theory possible to be a Christian and still be a good person. I just haven't met very many of them myself. Posted by Malcolm on May 11 2010,14:08
(TheCatt @ May 11 2010,13:48) QUOTE Crap, maybe I wasn't supposed to tell everyone. I've got a roommate that's demanded of me no fewer than a dozen times that I try out. Posted by Malcolm on May 11 2010,14:12
(TPRJones @ May 11 2010,14:41) QUOTE And I don't have anything more against Catholics in general than I have against Christians in general. It is in theory possible to be a Christian and still be a good person. I just haven't met very many of them myself. I harbour a deep suspicion for those who let others give them all the reasoning behind various metaphysical/philosophical questions without a sufficient proof. The chances of more than a handful of people agreeing totally on all the bits of why we're here & where we're going is about as good as Lyndon LaRouche winning the next presidential election. Posted by Vince on May 11 2010,18:56
(Cakedaddy @ May 11 2010,11:28) QUOTE And that's all the church does. . . pay for people to be pedos. Take out the religious part, and churches still do a lot of good for communities, etc. Yes, they have their fair share of corruption, psychos, etc. To say that every religious person is evil simply because a few of them are idiots is dumb. But I'm not pissed at all Catholics because they funded an organization that had pedos. That's just ridiculous. That being said, I do hold the church/pastors/priests to a higher standard than I do teachers, etc. So, yes, I expect more from them and feel it's worse when a priest molests a child than when a teacher does it. The crime is the same, but the breech of trust is greater with the priest, in my opinion. I would have expected more from the church than for them to protect their bottom line. I agree with all of this. Posted by Vince on May 11 2010,18:58
(Cakedaddy @ May 11 2010,11:35) QUOTE (Vince @ May 10 2010,11:10) QUOTE Kind of like how more toddlers die by drowning in 5 gallon buckets of water every year than by accidental shootings What's your source? Not disputing, I want to use this, and I want to be able to say something other than "I know this because Vince on the message board said so!" **I'm betting I get an answer from Thib before Vince cause Thib probably has stuff like this bookmarked. I'll have to see if I can find those numbers again. Saw them some years back from the past 5 or 6 years (at the time), and the numbers ran very close every year with the 5 gallon buckets winning out most of them. Posted by GORDON on May 11 2010,19:03
I vaguely remember those numbers, I think I was in Memphis at the time. Something about how more kids drown in the home than get shot?
Posted by Malcolm on May 12 2010,11:37
(GORDON @ May 11 2010,21:03) QUOTE I vaguely remember those numbers, I think I was in Memphis at the time. Something about how more kids drown in the home than get shot? Probably because your average gangbanger can't aim for shit. Posted by Vince on May 12 2010,18:59
I found some of the info, but nothing that was comparing it to the accidental gun deaths.About 1/4 of accidental drowings of toddlers were in buckets. Kind of makes sense. Parents really wouldn't be as concerned about that as they would their child in the tub or out by the wading pool. The kid leans into the bucket to splash in the water at the bottom and topples head first in and can't get out. Posted by Leisher on May 14 2010,01:56
< "And then there's this asshole." >One thing the Catholic Church absolutely needs to do is put a gag order on most of their organization. Assign specific people in different regions the task of talking to the media, and instruct everyone else to shut their pie holes. Posted by Malcolm on May 14 2010,08:27
Fuck gag orders. Saying something that blatantly stupid ought to result in automatic defrocking.
Posted by Vince on May 16 2010,05:32
(Malcolm @ May 14 2010,10:27) QUOTE Fuck gag orders. Saying something that blatantly stupid ought to result in automatic defrocking. Yup |