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Forum: General Stuff Topic: This Iran Thing started by: GORDON Posted by GORDON on Jun. 20 2009,15:00
Watching the protests, the masses, the mobs, the riots, against their government.I'm a little jealous. The first step is always the hardest. Here's cheers, and I hope y'all can keep your momentum and actually change something. Posted by Malcolm on Jun. 20 2009,18:19
(GORDON @ Jun. 20 2009,17:00) QUOTE Here's cheers, and I hope y'all can keep your momentum and actually change something. To quote Dave Lister, "Not a dog's chance in hell." Posted by GORDON on Jun. 20 2009,20:03
I don't know. I saw Iraq's government change in my lifetime. And Afghanistan's. And the Soviet Union's. And Yugoslavia's. And The Socialist States of Obama's.
Posted by TPRJones on Jun. 22 2009,08:20
There's a lot of online technical support to assist the protestors with communication and coordination. It might be enough to help them keep going with this. We'll see.< http://iran.whyweprotest.net/ > Posted by TPRJones on Jun. 22 2009,09:29
Somewhat NSFW (clip from CNN; blood, death):< http://paulocoelhoblog.com/2009/06/22/iran-by-neda/ > Posted by Malcolm on Jun. 22 2009,09:45
I ain't counting success till the Iranian prez & his advisers are permanently removed.A few strategically placed illegal arms shipments in that country could do wonders right about now. Posted by TPRJones on Jun. 22 2009,09:56
(Malcolm @ Jun. 22 2009,11:45) QUOTE I ain't counting success till the Iranian prez & his advisers are permanently removed. If I'm understanding the garbled Google translations right on what's coming out of Iran right now, it's gone beyond that. Who is President is no longer much of an issue. Apparently there's some sort of major split among the ayatollahs, with those wanting to return to a more pure theocracy without all these silly elections backing the sitting Pres, and those wanting to move forward to a western democracy and get away from religious law backing the other guy. None of the major players wants to go back to the way things were before the election, they're both pulling towards the extremes. And the Iranian people are caught in the middle. As usual. Posted by Malcolm on Jun. 22 2009,10:05
Makes it an even better time to pick off some troublesome fundie psychos over there, then.
Posted by GORDON on Jun. 22 2009,10:28
(Malcolm @ Jun. 22 2009,12:45) QUOTE A few strategically placed illegal arms shipments in that country could do wonders right about now. The Leader of the Free World can't even bring himself to say "tyrants are bad," so I don't think we'll be sending any help. Posted by TPRJones on Jun. 22 2009,10:45
< Today in Tehran. >Got to be honest, I don't think we should. If they do this themselves it will be a lot more ... lasting. Now, if we were to sneak in and secretly assassinate a few key people and make it look like their own people did it, as long as NO ONE ever finds out about it that would probably help. Posted by Malcolm on Jun. 22 2009,11:03
(TPRJones @ Jun. 22 2009,12:45) QUOTE Now, if we were to sneak in and secretly assassinate a few key people and make it look like their own people did it, as long as NO ONE ever finds out about it that would probably help. Hell, yeah. It's understood that no one ever finds out about it. Surest way for us to kill the rebellion is to support them openly. Posted by TPRJones on Jun. 22 2009,11:10
It's refreshing to hear marching protesters in Iran shouting something besides "Death to America". From what I've read the top three chants are currently "Death to the Dictator", "Do Not be Afraid", and "Where is Neda".< http://www.cnn.com/video....osearch > Posted by GORDON on Jun. 22 2009,11:15
(TPRJones @ Jun. 22 2009,13:45) QUOTE Got to be honest, I don't think we should. If they do this themselves it will be a lot more ... lasting. So we've replaced our long standing tradition of support, even when only verbal, of those who would stand up with tyranny with.... we're afraid of our own shadows. Lovely. That's great progress. Posted by TPRJones on Jun. 22 2009,11:30
(GORDON @ Jun. 22 2009,13:15) QUOTE (TPRJones @ Jun. 22 2009,13:45) QUOTE Got to be honest, I don't think we should. If they do this themselves it will be a lot more ... lasting. So we've replaced our long standing tradition of support, even when only verbal, of those who would stand up with tyranny with.... we're afraid of our own shadows. Lovely. That's great progress. Sorry for being unclear, I was refering to the "help" part of your statement. I'm all for denouncing them. I'd need to consider the ramifications, but I think I'd also be in favor of stationing troops all around their borders and providing support to those individuals trying to get out that ask for our help. But without first having some official or widespread grassroots request for help from inside Iran itself I think driving into Tehran in tanks would do far more harm than good at this point. Posted by thibodeaux on Jun. 22 2009,11:39
Iran is lucky we don't have a huge military presence in any of the countries on their borders.
Posted by Malcolm on Jun. 22 2009,13:44
If there is an Islamic jihad apocalypse scenario, it might start like this. Let's see if this "global" fundamentalist uprising they've been threatening for years actually happens. If not, we'll just have to dismantle each psycho state in turn. Might take a couple centuries, though.
Posted by GORDON on Jun. 22 2009,15:12
You know, the joke used to be, "Uh oh, they messed up... now we're going to send them a strongly worded letter." Obama won't even go that far.What a leader. Better get nationalized health care passed. Posted by GORDON on Jun. 23 2009,21:19
The Nanny State isn't afraid to meddle.< http://www.guardian.co.uk/world....plomats > Posted by Leisher on Jun. 24 2009,05:24
This whole situation has got to be a nightmare for Obama's re-election staff.
Posted by Troy on Jun. 24 2009,06:14
I'm sorry guys, but I just don't get it.Why on earth do you think that we can: 1)Afford to do dick about the situation, the whole point was the pull troops and hopefully cut expenses. You know, to pay for things like fixing banks, economy and health care, you know, stuff we actually care about. 2) Want to help the "oppositions" (same fucking guy) with basically the same beliefs. The last time we did this, didn't the majority party go "hey look America is helping the opposition, if your with the opposition you're with America" and that pretty much ended the whole thing. That was even pre- "everyone hates America" era. Posted by GORDON on Jun. 24 2009,06:37
It's getting questionable any more, but America has always been the "beacon of light" to the world for liberty and freedom. whether it is actually true or not. Immigration trends tend to support that idea. Much of the 20th century has been spent prepping for, fighting, or recovering from wars overseas supporting liberty and freedom. Even the war we lost, our aims were proven legitimate. We didn't want Vietnam to fall, because it was suspected there would be a "domino effect" of countries in that region falling to communism. We were correct, and millions died because of it. Lefties are fond of bringing up "Ho Chi Min wanted to ally with the US, but we wouldn't, so he became our enemy." This is true. We did nothing for too long, and the world went on without us.Now we have an uprising in possibly the most secular country in the world. I'm honestly not even sure what the resistance to that theocratic government represents, but any resistance to the ayatollah is good, as far as I am concerned. And our President doesn't even have the balls to say "Good luck" to the opposition of the ayatollah. Our President also said "they are the same fucking guy" already, and he got a "fuck you" letter from the "other fucking guy." So if he wins, there goes good relations with THAT leader. It is my honest opinion that we have elected a President who doesn't really appreciate, understand, or even know about anything America has stood for for the last 230 years. He got elected because he was black and on the democratic ticket in 2008 and willing to say anything to get elected. "This Iran Thing" is a perfect example of this, as far as I and many others are concerned. Also, were you being ironic when you said, "We gotta fix health care" and stuff? Posted by GORDON on Jun. 24 2009,06:41
And on a personal level, I think Obama is a piece of shit, but I am always willing and hoping to have my opinion revised by something he does.
Posted by Troy on Jun. 24 2009,06:58
We may have been in a position in the past to pay to topple regimes, but we sure as hell aren't in one now. Dunno about you, but I'm just starting out, and I really really don't want to have to foot another $40-50,000 bill (per household, based on Iraq war cost) in my lifetime for yet another country that I personally don't care that much about. I'd rather spend that kind of money... getting a system of health care not run by lobbyist (BUT YOU HAVE TO WAIT A MONTH TO GET YOUR TOES CLIPPED!), invested in schools (So they have to stop laying teachers off) or some other project at home: (universities, national parks). Heck I'd even be fine for the money to go against the cost of the 2 to 1 baby boomers I'm going to have to support when they all start retiring. In the long run, I guess I'm not thinking with my guns and glory point view. I'm thinking with my wallet, and thinking about my future. Posted by GORDON on Jun. 24 2009,07:06
Dude, you must have no idea how far in the hole your personal share of the deficit is. You're already well beyond fucked, Government mandated health care is going to be a lot more expensive than our president having the balls to say "good luck" on TV during prime time.And you can't pull out of the world just because money is tight. We still have to live in it. I never realized you were a closet liberal, judging by all the things you just said you wanted. Posted by Troy on Jun. 24 2009,07:13
We may still have to live in it, but that doesn't mean we have to be white knighting around the globe spending money we don't have.Why? Because we are some beacon of light, as you said before? Obviously you would be the first to admit we aren't any more, so why spread when we ought be trying to improve THIS country, instead of some pile of sand half the world away. Throwing up your hands and saying "Screw it, we are already too far in debt to try any more", will work for you, I guess. The economy and debt probably won't catch up to us until you're already retired. But what about me and your kid, I bet we would like to see some progress on the debt, and some light at the end of the tunnel. *edit ** I understand the total debt is more than 40-50k a household, that was merely the cost of our last little regime toppling fun fest. Posted by GORDON on Jun. 24 2009,08:11
Only one person here seems to be talking about invading Iran. We need to get back on the same page if this discussion is continue.
Posted by Troy on Jun. 24 2009,08:44
Fair enough, but what exactly are we going to do that won't blow up in our faces as it has in past history.A stern letter? Some talking head comments? As I already stated, we tried that sort of thing in the past, and it was actually the BEST way to totally shut down the opposition. Posted by GORDON on Jun. 24 2009,09:10
Like Reagan and the uprising in Poland?
Posted by Troy on Jun. 24 2009,09:23
Obviously, I'm referring to history pertaining to Iran.(if that was a joke, it was a good troll though) Posted by Malcolm on Jun. 24 2009,09:30
(GORDON @ Jun. 24 2009,11:10) QUOTE Like Reagan and the uprising in Poland? Russian commies != Iranian fundie psychos. Open invasion seems out of the question. But IF a few of the rebels happen to find an RPG or two buried in the sand from ... I dunno, there's got to be lots of conflicts around there were munitions change hands Posted by Leisher on Jun. 24 2009,09:33
How hard would it be to have a U.S. convoy get "attacked" near the Iraq/Iran border by Iranian rebels?Oops, that convoy just happened to be transporting weapons and now they're being used in Iran. Sorry about that! Posted by thibodeaux on Jun. 24 2009,10:00
As most of you know, I was a strong supporter of the invasion of Iraq. I always thought that one of the "features" of invading Iraq was that we knew we could whip their military and setup permanent bases there so we could keep Iran in line.That hasn't seemed to work out. So now I'm back to isolationist mode. Screw all foreigners. Let's go back to the Clinton playbook. Lob missiles and drop MOABs on 'em for a few weeks and then declare happiness. Posted by GORDON on Jun. 24 2009,11:18
As so many people in the business world love to say, "Perception is reality." I disagree, but I do think perception is important.When Bush took down Afghanistan's and Iraq's governments within months after 9/11, it sent a message. Actually, the rubble of the WTC was still smoking when the invasion of Afghanistan started. That's huge. I remember Libya taking steps to not be on our bad side after that, for example. I also know there haven't been any attacks on the US since 9/11, in spite of one "Bin Laden" message after another, over and over, promising that soon we'll face something even worse than 9/11. He is now a punch line, for most people. What message is Obama sending by saying nothing? All it takes is a 30 second speech, even something off the cuff, with absolutely no intent to do anything about it, behind it. It reminds the world we're still watching, and we still give a shit. We're getting the opposite from our President. We're sending a message of apathy and fear. Let's see where it leads. Everything we say now, here is merely academic. But I still think the words from the leader of the free world can hinder or help those fighting for liberty (or whatever it is they are fighting for... at any rate, they seen pretty pissed off about their perception that their votes don't matter. That's pretty big, imo.) He says nothing, the rebels feel abandoned and lose motivation. He says "good luck," and they feel heartened and fight on. Perception matters. And for the record, at this time I don't want us going into Iran in force, although I do think we could mop them up handily. I just don't like the mistaken impression that I, and those like me, are pussies. Personal pride, I guess. Lately Obama's handlers have seen the backlash from his... nothing... and have changed Obama's tune to "I always support peaceful protest." I wonder if the fucker realizes the country he leads did not get its start out of peaceful protest. Posted by Troy on Jun. 24 2009,11:34
"I've made it clear that the United States respects the sovereignty of the Islamic Republic of Iran, and is not interfering with Iran's affairs. But we must also bear witness to the courage and the dignity of the Iranian people, and to a remarkable opening within Iranian society. And we deplore the violence against innocent civilians anywhere that it takes place."I'm not trying to white knight the president or anything... but what ELSE can he do... talk against the brutality against protesters... anything more and the ruling party makes the opposition out to be "backed and supported by America." *Edit* Oops wrong quote. Posted by Leisher on Jun. 24 2009,13:04
Remember when Carter was in office and Iran took those hostages and held them without fear? What happened when Reagan got into office? They immediately backed down. They knew Reagan would call their horseshit with military might. < The world doesn't have that same respect for Obama. > I think that's the point Gordon is trying to make. Make no mistake, having the balls to use our military was a LARGE part of why many leaders hated Bush, and the lack of those balls is why those same leaders like Obama. And when I say "like", I don't mean that in a positive way. Posted by Malcolm on Jun. 24 2009,15:00
To be fair, Carter tried to get them out, he just failed miserably.
Posted by TPRJones on Jun. 24 2009,15:13
QUOTE The Washington Post reports that the Obama administration has “withdrawn invitations to Iranian diplomats to attend Fourth of July festivities at U.S. embassies around the world.”
Posted by TPRJones on Jun. 24 2009,15:17
< 'Blood everywhere' in fresh Iran crackdown >QUOTE But some of the tweeters who have shown themselves to be reliable - including foreign reporters with good contacts in Tehran - have posted the following messages in the past 12 hours. "Lots of reports of heavy gunfire and clashes in Baharestan. One guy is calling it a massacre," one says. "We heard the women are being beaten so badly they have to amputate their limbs," another says. "We saw militia with axe chopping people like meat - blood everywhere - like butcher." I've read many similar reports and stories. Quite a bloddy mess over there today. Posted by GORDON on Jun. 24 2009,15:37
This is from yesterday, I just came across it:Obama's News Conference: QUOTE The United States and the international community have been appalled and outraged by the threats, beatings, and imprisonments of the last few days. I strongly condemn these unjust actions, and I join with the American people in mourning each and every innocent life that is lost. I have made it clear that the United States respects the sovereignty of the Islamic Republic of Iran, and is not at all interfering in Iran’s affairs. But we must also bear witness to the courage and dignity of the Iranian people, and to a remarkable opening within Iranian society. And we deplore violence against innocent civilians anywhere that it takes place. The Iranian people are trying to have a debate about their future. Some in the Iranian government are trying to avoid that debate by accusing the United States and others outside of Iran of instigating protests over the elections. These accusations are patently false and absurd. They are an obvious attempt to distract people from what is truly taking place within Iran’s borders. This tired strategy of using old tensions to scapegoat other countries won’t work anymore in Iran. This is not about the United States and the West; this is about the people of Iran, and the future that they – and only they – will choose. The Iranian people can speak for themselves. That is precisely what has happened these last few days. In 2009, no iron fist is strong enough to shut off the world from bearing witness to the peaceful pursuit of justice. Despite the Iranian government’s efforts to expel journalists and isolate itself, powerful images and poignant words have made their way to us through cell phones and computers, and so we have watched what the Iranian people are doing. This is what we have witnessed. We have seen the timeless dignity of tens of thousands Iranians marching in silence. We have seen people of all ages risk everything to insist that their votes are counted and their voices heard. Above all, we have seen courageous women stand up to brutality and threats, and we have experienced the searing image of a woman bleeding to death on the streets. While this loss is raw and painful, we also know this: those who stand up for justice are always on the right side of history. As I said in Cairo, suppressing ideas never succeeds in making them go away. The Iranian people have a universal right to assembly and free speech. If the Iranian government seeks the respect of the international community, it must respect those rights, and heed the will of its own people. It must govern through consent, not coercion. That is what Iran’s own people are calling for, and the Iranian people will ultimately judge the actions of their own government. Better. A few days slow, but better. Posted by unkbill on Jun. 25 2009,10:14
(thibodeaux @ Jun. 24 2009,10:00) QUOTE As most of you know, I was a strong supporter of the invasion of Iraq. I always thought that one of the "features" of invading Iraq was that we knew we could whip their military and setup permanent bases there so we could keep Iran in line. That hasn't seemed to work out. So now I'm back to isolationist mode. Screw all foreigners. Let's go back to the Clinton playbook. Lob missiles and drop MOABs on 'em for a few weeks and then declare happiness. I dont know if I like yours or Malcolms idea better about having so insurgents finding some guns on thier doorsteps in the morning. I BBC reporter was on the balcony of his hotel last night. The people are scared of getting there heads busted with chains an other shit. But they were chanting things in the dark. Good for them. An I don't think things look good for there present government. Posted by GORDON on Jun. 27 2009,17:10
(GORDON @ Jun. 24 2009,09:41) QUOTE And on a personal level, I think Obama is a piece of shit, but I am always willing and hoping to have my opinion revised by something he does. Looks like I am not alone. < http://www.grouchyoldcripple.com/archives/006901.html > Posted by Malcolm on Jun. 30 2009,10:07
< Guardian Council certifies results. Matter is "closed." >This isn't really a shock since everyone on the council or everyone that appoints people to the council is ultimately selected by the Ayatollah's crazy ass. Posted by TheCatt on Jun. 30 2009,10:49
And with MJ dead, the press doesn't care either.
Posted by Malcolm on Jun. 30 2009,16:48
How's that rebellion going over there?
Posted by GORDON on Jun. 30 2009,16:52
I read yesterday that hundreds were rounded up, and a lot were dead in the street, but that was all from twitter feeds, not the MSM.
Posted by Malcolm on Jun. 30 2009,17:14
Any closer to kicking the current fuckers out of power?
Posted by TPRJones on Jun. 30 2009,18:50
Not really. This could take awhile.Last time it took seven years. Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 01 2009,10:46
I still can't believe someone can't lend them a few tons of C4 just for the hell of it.
Posted by GORDON on Jul. 02 2009,21:12
< Hangings? >
Posted by Malcolm on Dec. 08 2009,15:38
< Iranians still pissed >. People pissed off for this long usually means they're in it for the long haul. Unfortunately, they don't've the munitions to equalize anything.
Posted by GORDON on Dec. 08 2009,15:42
Wonder if they purged their military yet. Randomly executing 10% of them ought to do it.
Posted by Malcolm on Dec. 08 2009,15:56
This is where we need Nic Cage's character from "Lord of War" to step in & supply some malcontents.
Posted by TPRJones on Dec. 09 2009,09:14
Iran has a history of the long slow burn in their revolutions. This could go on for a few years before it's done.
Posted by Malcolm on Dec. 09 2009,11:27
(TPRJones @ Dec. 09 2009,11:14) QUOTE Iran has a history of the long slow burn in their revolutions. This could go on for a few years before it's done. I suppose the local populous does need to drain the resources of whatever police state is fucking w\ them at the time before the real coup attempts can be made. But, fucking hell, I'm just not that patient. There's a group of relatively sane folk who want to go from a fascist theocracy to a gov't that thinks a divine, supernatural being is NOT the proper yard stick for measuring civilization. Normally, we just walk into a rogue state, beat their asses down, & do our shitty, shitty best to prop up new folk that later turn out to be a different brand of destructive psycho. We've a preexisting condition here & now which might short circuit the preceding recipe for mediocre results. Posted by Malcolm on Feb. 01 2010,10:38
< More revolutionary fun >.QUOTE More than three decades ago, the popular uprising overthrew the US-backed monarchy in Iran. Popular marches have been scheduled across the country for February 11, which mark the anniversary of the Islamic Revolution. Some shit's got to go down. Posted by Leisher on Feb. 11 2010,12:46
< Iran claims it is now a "nuclear power". >Place your bets on when the Israeli airstrikes hit. Posted by Malcolm on Feb. 11 2010,13:05
(Leisher @ Feb. 11 2010,14:46) QUOTE Place your bets on when the Israeli airstrikes hit. I think they might try something a bit more subtle first. Wouldn't be their first sabotage job. Posted by Malcolm on Jun. 15 2013,09:40
Things could be < picking up >.
Posted by Malcolm on Apr. 02 2015,12:27
< Nuclear agreement reached >. Israel may lose its fucking mind.
Posted by Malcolm on Nov. 02 2015,10:54
< That agreement sounds > iron-fucking-clad, baby.QUOTE "The martyr-nurturing nation of Iran is not at all prepared to abandon the slogan of 'Death to America' under the pretext of a nuclear agreement," 192 members of Iran's parliament, which has a total of 290 seats, said in a statement, according to French news agency AFP.
The group said the slogan had become "a symbol of the Islamic republic and all struggling nations." |