Thunderdome 2015 » Printable Version of Topic » Cell/smart phones.... luxuries? Needs?

Forum: General Stuff
Topic: Cell/smart phones.... luxuries? Needs?
started by: GORDON

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 09 2015,05:09

I keep seeing people, usually millennials, saying how smart phones are no longer a luxury, but a need. I disagree with this unless their phone got wired into their brain to run their "Autonomic Nervous System" app, or something.

You don't stop breathing when your battery dies. It's a luxury, unless someone started changing the definitions of "Needs" and "luxuries" to make themselves look not so pathetic.

Posted by thibodeaux on Sep. 09 2015,05:23

< https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tpAOwJvTOio >

Posted by Stranger on Sep. 09 2015,05:37

Total luxury. I still have the 4S its ancient, runs slow but does what I need. And all I use it for is to check Facebook and Twitter and a GPS for golf. Oh yeah and texting, but usually only my wife texts me, so really I don't need this thing.

But I would love to have that 6plus or whatever Leisher has. That thing would be perfect to play Hearthstone on. But again, luxury.

Posted by Leisher on Sep. 09 2015,05:57

For business users, it's a needed item.

For regular consumers, it's a luxury item.

However, I would listen to an argument from any consumer who uses it as their primary PC. It would still, technically, be a luxury item, but I could see it being a valuable tool. But...if they're just using it for Facebook and porn, then we're absolutely back to a luxury item.

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 09 2015,06:27

This just happened to me, so I'm going to say needed item.

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 09 2015,06:28

I voted need. I use it for work, to track my family, communicate with people, get information, etc.

Posted by Leisher on Sep. 09 2015,06:39

(TheCatt @ Sep. 09 2015,09:27)

QUOTE

This just happened to me, so I'm going to say needed item.

Remember the days when you'd forget a book or magazine so you'd read the shampoo bottle?

Kids these days don't know how good they have it.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 09 2015,08:15

(TheCatt @ Sep. 09 2015,09:28)

QUOTE

I voted need. I use it for work, to track my family, communicate with people, get information, etc.

I see all of those things as conveniences, not needs.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 09 2015,08:16

(Leisher @ Sep. 09 2015,09:39)

QUOTE

Remember the days when you'd forget a book or magazine so you'd read the shampoo bottle?

Kids these days don't know how good they have it.

Remember all of those people who used to snicker at us for taking the PC Gamer mag to the shitter?

You know all those fucking mother fuckers pull out their phones on the crapper, now.

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 09 2015,08:16

(GORDON @ Sep. 09 2015,11:15)

QUOTE

(TheCatt @ Sep. 09 2015,09:28)

QUOTE

I voted need. I use it for work, to track my family, communicate with people, get information, etc.

I see all of those things as conveniences, not needs.

Yeah, well, that's just, like, your opinion, man.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 09 2015,08:22

The only good reason I have ever heard... and it is still a fairly thin reason... for poor people to be given phones is that it helps them to receive calls for interviews if they are actually job hunting. Payphones are going away and yeah, you need to be contactable or you will never get on your feet. I get that.

But I don't think it needs to be a smart phone, a $5/month flip phone plan will work for that. You can polish your resume at the public library, you don't need to be able to play farmville and check facebook. No one is hiring with facebook. Hell, quite the contrary.

Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 09 2015,18:34

QUOTE

Total luxury. I still have the 4S its ancient, runs slow but does what I need.

So is it a luxury or a need for you? Make up your mind.

QUOTE

(TheCatt @ Sep. 09 2015,09:28)

QUOTE

I voted need. I use it for work, to track my family, communicate with people, get information, etc.

I see all of those things as conveniences, not needs.

If you would classify a house, a job to pay for the house, transportation to the job, etc et al as luxury items then I guess I would agree. I mean we could all live on the streets and eat rats and technically we don't need more than that.

But I for one have higher standards than that. I need an income, I need a residence, I need transportation to my job, and I need a communication device. I guess I could sort of get by on a flip phone, but I mostly use my smart phone for work email and flip phones just aren't very efficient at that.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 09 2015,18:36

"Shelter" is a need.

Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 09 2015,18:40

Not really. You can survive in most climates without shelter. Shelter is a luxury outside deserts and excessively cold climates. If you define "need" as "necessary to keep breathing".

Posted by Alhazad on Sep. 09 2015,18:49

I don't have a smart phone and I'm as happy and in touch with friends and family as I want to be, so it sure ain't a specific need as far as I can see. I'd lump it in with the 'internet/the PC is a utility' argument, which is the only one I've heard that has any legs.

On the other hand, the history of human progress has been driven by stupid, selfish entitlement.

Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 09 2015,19:02

Perhaps the only practical things the comic strip "Garfield" ever taught me:

1) "Just when I think I've hit bottom, somebody throws me a shovel."
2) "Sloth is the mother of invention."

A smart phone isn't a need. Communication's a need. A smart phone is the latest way to do it.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 09 2015,19:28

(TPRJones @ Sep. 09 2015,21:40)

QUOTE

Not really. You can survive in most climates without shelter. Shelter is a luxury outside deserts and excessively cold climates. If you define "need" as "necessary to keep breathing".

No, "shelter" is always counted as a "need."

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 09 2015,20:02

(Malcolm @ Sep. 09 2015,22:02)

QUOTE

A smart phone isn't a need. Communication's a need. A smart phone is the latest way to do it.

I could argue that communication is not a "need," plenty of people go out into the wilderness to avoid communication with other people.... and they still need shelter.

I kind of think "communication" is neither, it is just a thing.

Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 09 2015,20:25

(GORDON @ Sep. 09 2015,22:02)

QUOTE

(Malcolm @ Sep. 09 2015,22:02)

QUOTE

A smart phone isn't a need. Communication's a need. A smart phone is the latest way to do it.

Man is a social creature. People who go off to live alone are ascetics or Unabombers. In the case of the former, they want to commune with god/nature/the universe/whatever; the latter with the voices in their head.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 09 2015,20:52

I'll lean toward "need," since even the guy in the "One" video felt like he needed to communicate through headbanging.

But man can communicate without a cell phone, in fact he did it for quite a long time. A cell phone is still a convenience. Luxury.

Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 10 2015,04:02

(GORDON @ Sep. 09 2015,21:28)

QUOTE

No, "shelter" is always counted as a "need."

Not by the specific definition you selected at the top of this thread. Care to give a new definition that does include shelter?

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 10 2015,04:56

< Well this says "shelter" is a basic need. > You might not stop breathing instantly if you stand under blue sky, but in most part of the world you would, eventually. Not so, living without a cell phone. I have 4 billion examples of that to support my argument from people who lived long lives without cell phones.

Posted by Alhazad on Sep. 10 2015,07:59

(Malcolm @ Sep. 09 2015,20:25)

QUOTE

The Unabomber wrote letters and offered to stop killing in exchange for publication.

Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 10 2015,10:51

(GORDON @ Sep. 10 2015,06:56)

QUOTE

< Well this says "shelter" is a basic need. >

But that's not a definition. It's an arbitrary list of things. And since a cellphone is not shelter, a cellphone is not food, and a cellphone is not clothing then no, by that "definition" it's not a need.

But then neither is oxygen, apparently.

QUOTE

Not so, living without a cell phone. I have 4 billion examples of that to support my argument from people who lived long lives without cell phones.

I would make the same argument about clothing, yet it's still in your acceptable list. Why?

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 10 2015,12:36

I am done with the nitpicking, and declaring myself correct by Rule of Poll: a cell phone is not needed to live.

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 10 2015,12:42

(GORDON @ Sep. 10 2015,15:36)

QUOTE

I am done with the nitpicking, and declaring myself correct by Rule of Poll: a cell phone is not needed to live.

You asked if it was a luxury or a need. Not if it was needed to live.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 10 2015,13:53

What were you thinking when I said "a need?"

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 10 2015,14:18

(GORDON @ Sep. 10 2015,16:53)

QUOTE

What were you thinking when I said "a need?"

If it is needed.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 10 2015,14:21

Holy shit, it is like I am talking to my kid when he was 5 but he was never this obtuse.

Show of hands, who thought my original wording was ambiguous? I didn't intend it to be, as I had no idea there would be any confusion between a "need" and a "want." If everyone didn't know what I meant, then I will just delete the thread or soemtrhing becasue I swear to god my head is about to explode.

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 10 2015,15:39

Man, you need to learn to read and to type.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 10 2015,15:43

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 10 2015,16:24

I win!

But in all seriousness... I do need my phone. That line is very grey for need/want.

I want a better cell phone, but I need to have a cell phone.

If you want to draw the line as "essential for survival," then no - I don't need it. But it makes life easier/better/etc. I only really need: Food, water, sleep, air, warmth. Everything else is a want.

But that's stupid. The definition of need is not "essential for survival," because people need a lot of things for various reasons, particularly making life better.

So, I still need my phone.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 10 2015,16:34

You dont need a job that requires you to always be in touch. You want one.

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 10 2015,16:41

(GORDON @ Sep. 10 2015,19:34)

QUOTE

You dont need a job that requires you to always be in touch. You want one.

< You and Merriam disagree >

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 10 2015,16:42

I'm done. I'm either being fucked with or people around here actually never learned this shit in grade school.

Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 10 2015,16:52

QUOTE

You dont need a job that requires you to always be in touch. You want one.

I doubt that. I for one would be happy if my job would leave me alone. But what I want is an income higher than minimum wage, and to achieve that I need a phone with my work email on it.

Need as a general concept is relative to what you are specifically referring to. There are no absolutes when it comes to need.

If you want to talk about what a human needs for survival that's a different conversation than what a tree needs for survival, or what you need to maintain your current job, or what you need to keep your wife happy, or whatever other specific situation you might want to discuss. Some of those situations may include a cell phone. Most won't.

Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 10 2015,16:55

QUOTE

...or what you need to keep your wife happy

Hell, that's easy.

His MIL.

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 10 2015,17:23

(GORDON @ Sep. 10 2015,19:42)

QUOTE

I'm done. I'm either being fucked with or people around here actually never learned this shit in grade school.

No, you clearly do not know what the word need means.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 10 2015,18:30

And you are clearly in the minority of people who didn't glean the intention of the original question.

Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 10 2015,19:06

Hey, you're the one that specified "You don't stop breathing when your battery dies" in the original post to explain what needs are. And then linked something about clothing being a need. Far as I know nudists aren't generally in danger of suffocating because of a lack of clothes.

QUOTE

I'm either being fucked with..

< https://www.youtube.com/watch?v....be&t=12 >

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 10 2015,19:42

(TPRJones @ Sep. 10 2015,22:06)

QUOTE

I'm either being fucked with..

< https://www.youtube.com/watch?v....be&t=12 >

That seems sincere.

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 11 2015,07:04

(GORDON @ Sep. 10 2015,16:53)

QUOTE

What were you thinking when I said "a need?"

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 11 2015,08:30

tl;dr

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 11 2015,08:36

(GORDON @ Sep. 11 2015,11:30)

QUOTE

tl;dr

Just read the middle panel

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 11 2015,08:40

But most people are taught the difference between "wants" and "needs" in grade school, and I guess my mistake is that everyone had that common context.

Once again, I completely fail.

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 11 2015,08:51

(GORDON @ Sep. 11 2015,11:40)

QUOTE

But most people are taught the difference between "wants" and "needs" in grade school, and I guess my mistake is that everyone had that common context.

Once again, I completely fail.

The problem is that wants and needs are a) relative and b) fluid.

Your perspective is that of when you were taught the words, with the meaning that you were given at that time.

However, the word need has many meanings, not just "essential for survival." Thus, it's open to interpretation as to what constitutes and need, and what does not.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 11 2015,08:55

Exactly my point. In the context I was using, "Needs" means "essential to survival." I had no idea everyone wouldn't automatically know the context.

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 11 2015,09:45

(GORDON @ Sep. 11 2015,11:55)

QUOTE

Exactly my point. In the context I was using, "Needs" means "essential to survival." I had no idea everyone wouldn't automatically know the context.

We are supposed to be able to read your mind?

Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 11 2015,09:53

(TheCatt @ Sep. 11 2015,11:45)

QUOTE

(GORDON @ Sep. 11 2015,11:55)

QUOTE

Exactly my point. In the context I was using, "Needs" means "essential to survival." I had no idea everyone wouldn't automatically know the context.

We are supposed to be able to read your mind?

You don't need to read his mind.

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 11 2015,09:54

(Malcolm @ Sep. 11 2015,12:53)

QUOTE

(TheCatt @ Sep. 11 2015,11:45)

QUOTE

(GORDON @ Sep. 11 2015,11:55)

QUOTE

Exactly my point. In the context I was using, "Needs" means "essential to survival." I had no idea everyone wouldn't automatically know the context.

We are supposed to be able to read your mind?

You don't need to read his mind.

He clearly WANTS me to.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 11 2015,09:56

(TheCatt @ Sep. 11 2015,12:45)

QUOTE

(GORDON @ Sep. 11 2015,11:55)

QUOTE

Exactly my point. In the context I was using, "Needs" means "essential to survival." I had no idea everyone wouldn't automatically know the context.

We are supposed to be able to read your mind?

Four other people were able to correctly glean context. I'd love it if any of them were here supporting my side of the argument but I guess I get what I get.

Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 11 2015,10:02

(GORDON @ Sep. 11 2015,11:56)

QUOTE

(TheCatt @ Sep. 11 2015,12:45)

QUOTE

(GORDON @ Sep. 11 2015,11:55)

QUOTE

Exactly my point. In the context I was using, "Needs" means "essential to survival." I had no idea everyone wouldn't automatically know the context.

We are supposed to be able to read your mind?

Four other people were able to correctly glean context. I'd love it if any of them were here supporting my side of the argument but I guess I get what I get.

QUOTE

A man has three needs: food, sex, and silence. Feed me, fuck me, shut the fuck up.

- Chris Rock

Posted by Alhazad on Sep. 11 2015,13:06

(GORDON @ Sep. 11 2015,09:56)

QUOTE

Four other people were able to correctly glean context. I'd love it if any of them were here supporting my side of the argument but I guess I get what I get.

I don't feel the need to comment.

Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 11 2015,16:00

(GORDON @ Sep. 11 2015,10:55)

QUOTE

In the context I was using, "Needs" means "essential to survival."

Then no, cell phones are not a need. By that definition water, nutritionally complete foods without toxins, and a properly oxygenated atmosphere without too much CO2 are the only needs.

But clearly that is not the definition you actually meant or you wouldn't have included shelter and clothing in there. You don't even know what you meant, so how could you expect us to?

Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 11 2015,16:01

(Alhazad @ Sep. 11 2015,15:06)

QUOTE

I don't feel the need to comment.

Party pooped.

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 11 2015,16:42

(TPRJones @ Sep. 11 2015,19:00)

QUOTE

(GORDON @ Sep. 11 2015,10:55)

QUOTE

In the context I was using, "Needs" means "essential to survival."

Warmth + sleep also.

But yeah, that list stops on one hand.

Gordon's just confusing shit up by including non-essential items that are actually wants.

Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 11 2015,17:21

And the truth is even those needs are relative on a time scale. Right now I don't need food. But I will eventually.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 11 2015,17:32

I still say shelter is a need. Nobody lives out in the elements permanently and still has a long life.

Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 11 2015,18:01

I don't disagree about shelter being a need. I'm just saying the necessity of it for survival is heavily dependant on climate, and that this discrepancy is because "need" is often more than just "necessary for survival".

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 11 2015,18:33

(TPRJones @ Sep. 11 2015,21:01)

QUOTE

Well, name a climate where, without shelter, you dont get rained on, cooked, eaten by insects, drowned, suffocated (very high altitued), frozen, or rotted away?

Posted by Alhazad on Sep. 11 2015,19:00

Chernobyl.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 11 2015,19:01

(Alhazad @ Sep. 11 2015,22:00)

QUOTE

Chernobyl.

I submit you'd get rained on, frozen, insected, wolfed, and rotted.

If you are inside the casket then just rotted.

Posted by Alhazad on Sep. 11 2015,19:03

Acid spring.

Dead sea.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 11 2015,19:08

(Alhazad @ Sep. 11 2015,22:03)

QUOTE

Acid spring.

Dead sea.

Acid burned and dehydrated, respectively.

I can't remember what the actual acid ph level is, though.... I've watched enough Westerns to know alkaline springs'll kill you, though.

So yeah, my point is that I don't think there's a climate on Earth that is conducive to long life, without shelter.

Posted by Alhazad on Sep. 11 2015,19:11

Open-air gun store.

Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 11 2015,21:03

The fact that we are here as a species when once upon a time we couldn't build shelter is proof that there are climates where shelter isn't absolutely necessary to survival.

Comfort, yes. But not survival.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 11 2015,21:04

We also had fur.

Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 11 2015,21:06

(TPRJones @ Sep. 11 2015,23:03)

QUOTE

Build? Fuck build. We had caves.

Posted by Alhazad on Sep. 11 2015,22:09

(GORDON @ Sep. 11 2015,21:04)

QUOTE

We also had fur.

We still do, but I think your timeline is a bit confused. Proto-humans are plausibly believed to have lost body hair before radiating out of Africa, 1.2 million years ago. The earliest discovered, identifiable hearths are about 800,000 years old.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 14 2015,11:26

Maynard Keened knows the difference between wants and needs without having to have it explained to him:

< http://www.rollingstone.com/music....?page=2 >

QUOTE

"The Remedy" really is a borderline-extinction-level event where we're worrying about food, clothing and shelter rather than worrying about whether or not you should use the word "retard" [laughs]. We're so far away from the reality of what it means to survive, and buying into the polarized crap that goes on in the political arena, and also caught up in what you think you deserve. "I deserve free shipping!" You know? It's just so disconnected with real life, and what it takes to survive. And maybe because I grew up on a farm, and maybe because I've done that work and maybe because I live in Arizona, where everything will kill you if you're not aware... maybe I just have a different perspective than most people.

Posted by Stranger on Sep. 14 2015,11:45

Gotta love Maynard!

Bottom line is the phone is a luxury. I don't care if you "need it for work", people did your job before cell phones existed and got along just fine.

Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 14 2015,11:56

QUOTE

...people did your job before cell phones existed and got along just fine.

Bullshit. Some of those jobs didn't exist before back in the day. Did a frontier doctor in 1830s Appalachia need a cell phone or a car? No. But he would've been a lot more effective if he had them. We did surgery without anesthesia, too. Is it possible to survive without? Sure, it's just less pleasant and likely.

Posted by Stranger on Sep. 14 2015,12:15

(Malcolm @ Sep. 14 2015,14:56)

QUOTE

...people did your job before cell phones existed and got along just fine.

Totally irrelevant argument there..

Don't need it, just a luxury.

Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 14 2015,12:24

(Stranger @ Sep. 14 2015,14:15)

QUOTE

(Malcolm @ Sep. 14 2015,14:56)

QUOTE

...people did your job before cell phones existed and got along just fine.

Totally irrelevant argument there..

Don't need it, just a luxury.

No, entirely relevant. If your job requires ready and instantaneous communication, then you need a means to do so. Until telepathy comes along, smart phone wins.

Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 14 2015,12:46

Stranger, would you at least acknowledge that someone with the job of computer programmer "needs" a computer in order to do their job? Or is that also a luxury?

Posted by Stranger on Sep. 14 2015,13:25

(TPRJones @ Sep. 14 2015,15:46)

QUOTE

Stranger, would you at least acknowledge that someone with the job of computer program "needs" a computer in order to do their job? Or is that also a luxury?

I would, but we are talking about a cell phone aren't we?

Just my opinion, you're free to have yours also. To me, phone is luxury.

Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 14 2015,13:43

Yes, we are, but I'm trying to establish a definition of "need" beyond just an arbitrary list of food, shelter, and clothing. Since an actual concrete definition hasn't been forthcoming, trying to feel one out by selected examples seemed the way to go.

Would you agree that someone working as a racecar driver "need" some sort of automotive?

Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 14 2015,13:58

A concrete definition of need? Insane. You might as well ask for a concrete definition of art. Fuck, you don't even need to exist, to be strict, so fuck oxygen. The Unabomber didn't need more than 100' or so square to live. If you imposed that base minimum on certain people, they would either: (i) kill themselves or (ii) dedicate their existence to finding a bigger living area. Some monks don't need more than noodles and water to live. For about four years of life, all you "need" to eat is ramen. A thousand years ago, all most people needed to worry about was pleasing their respective god(s), if you believe the contemporary sources. Nowadays, there's a "need" to fight climate change.

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 14 2015,14:41

(TPRJones @ Sep. 14 2015,16:43)

QUOTE

Shelter and clothing are not a need.

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 14 2015,14:41

No, the concrete definition is what you need to survive: food, water, air, sleep, and warmth. You need nothing else.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 14 2015,14:47

(TheCatt @ Sep. 14 2015,17:41)

QUOTE

(TPRJones @ Sep. 14 2015,16:43)

QUOTE

Shelter and clothing are not a need.

I've asked a few times for someone to name a place where the environment wouldn't eventually kill you unless you were sheltered, but I haven't gotten one yet.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 14 2015,14:48

(TPRJones @ Sep. 14 2015,16:43)

QUOTE

The concrete definition was back in the first (or so) page when I linked wikipedia. It even went a little beyond "food and shelter" but I let it slide.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 14 2015,14:50

(TPRJones @ Sep. 14 2015,15:46)

QUOTE

Stranger, would you at least acknowledge that someone with the job of computer programmer "needs" a computer in order to do their job? Or is that also a luxury?

But you don't need that job to survive, you just want it for the extra bennies. You could survive by digging ditches for money which wouldn't require the smart phone.

The "smart phone" being the original point of this entire thread, btw. Everything else has just been youse guys busting my balls.

Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 14 2015,14:51

(TheCatt @ Sep. 14 2015,16:41)

QUOTE

No, the concrete definition is what you need to survive: food, water, air, sleep, and warmth. You need nothing else.

There were people who possessed all these things and still died. You might have a template for a base starting list for humanity there, but to say your short list is it ... no way.

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 14 2015,14:58

(Malcolm @ Sep. 14 2015,17:51)

QUOTE

(TheCatt @ Sep. 14 2015,16:41)

QUOTE

No, the concrete definition is what you need to survive: food, water, air, sleep, and warmth. You need nothing else.

There were people who possessed all these things and still died. You might have a template for a base starting list for humanity there, but to say your short list is it ... no way.

There are people who possess everything in the world and still die.

Stupid argument.

Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 14 2015,15:14

(TheCatt @ Sep. 14 2015,16:58)

QUOTE

(Malcolm @ Sep. 14 2015,17:51)

QUOTE

(TheCatt @ Sep. 14 2015,16:41)

QUOTE

No, the concrete definition is what you need to survive: food, water, air, sleep, and warmth. You need nothing else.

There were people who possessed all these things and still died. You might have a template for a base starting list for humanity there, but to say your short list is it ... no way.

There are people who possess everything in the world and still die.

Stupid argument.

No, their survival was fucked because some type of need wasn't met. If you're a physical invalid, you need food and water. You also need someone or something to get it for you because your ass can't. You don't need food and water, you need enough ATP, vitamins, and minerals to keep you going. I bet there's a theoretical chemical solution to the problem which doesn't require ingestion, and maybe even digestion.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 14 2015,15:16

Ha, you said ATP.

Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 14 2015,15:17

(GORDON @ Sep. 14 2015,17:16)

QUOTE

Ha, you said ATP.

Yup. Ammo and toilet paper.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 14 2015,15:25

(Malcolm @ Sep. 14 2015,18:17)

QUOTE

(GORDON @ Sep. 14 2015,17:16)

QUOTE

Ha, you said ATP.

Yup. Ammo and toilet paper.

That was your usage?

I thought you meant the stuff your cells eat. More smarty-pants way of saying "food."

Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 14 2015,15:28

(GORDON @ Sep. 14 2015,17:25)

QUOTE

(Malcolm @ Sep. 14 2015,18:17)

QUOTE

(GORDON @ Sep. 14 2015,17:16)

QUOTE

Ha, you said ATP.

Yup. Ammo and toilet paper.

That was your usage?

I thought you meant the stuff your cells eat. More smarty-pants way of saying "food."

Yeah I meant ... wtf is it? Adenosine triphosphate? The second part was strictly for comedic purpose.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 14 2015,16:09

Yeah, without looking it up, that's close if not correct. Been too long.

The answer to "what do your cells eat?" begins and ends with ATP.

Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 14 2015,16:53

(GORDON @ Sep. 14 2015,16:50)

QUOTE

(TPRJones @ Sep. 14 2015,15:46)

QUOTE

Stranger, would you at least acknowledge that someone with the job of computer programmer "needs" a computer in order to do their job? Or is that also a luxury?

I 'm working my way up to that. Geez. No one has any patience.

So I'm gathering that you would say that a computer programmer does not "need" a computer and that a rececar driver does not "need" some sort of automobile? It seems that is what you are saying but I don't want to put word in your mouth.

QUOTE

Everything else has just been youse guys busting my balls.

Some, yes, but not entirely. I still think what you have offered as a definition of needs does not entirely match up with what you have offered as examples of needs.

QUOTE

I've asked a few times for someone to name a place where the environment wouldn't eventually kill you unless you were sheltered, but I haven't gotten one yet.

That word eventually is problematic. Eventually your house can kill you by burning down around your ears. But in general I would say the < Afar Triangle > and the < Ariège region of France > are strong candidates because people lived generations in both places before learning to build shelters. Hell there were some cowboys that spent decades living outside in the American West working roaming herds of cattle. Is it comfortable? No. Is it survivable? Yes.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 14 2015,17:02

(TPRJones @ Sep. 14 2015,19:53)

QUOTE

So I'm gathering that you would say that a computer programmer does not "need" a computer and that a rececar driver does not "need" some sort of automobile? It seems that is what you are saying but I don't want to put word in your mouth.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying because no one "needs" to do either of those professions.

Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 14 2015,17:31

(GORDON @ Sep. 14 2015,19:02)

QUOTE

(TPRJones @ Sep. 14 2015,19:53)

QUOTE

Yeah, that's what I'm saying because no one "needs" to do either of those professions.

I guess want v. need is bullshit because no one needs philosophy or metaphysics which means we don't need ethics and we don't need law or order.

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 14 2015,17:38

At this point, I think Gordon's just trolling by pretending to not know what need means.

Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 14 2015,18:04

(GORDON @ Sep. 14 2015,19:02)

QUOTE

Yeah, that's what I'm saying because no one "needs" to do either of those professions.

Fair enough.

Would you define any particular food item as a need? Is a good steak a need? Is a bowl of rice a need? Is broccoli a need?

Posted by Alhazad on Sep. 14 2015,18:09

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 14 2015,18:12

(TPRJones @ Sep. 14 2015,21:04)

QUOTE

(GORDON @ Sep. 14 2015,19:02)

QUOTE

Yeah, that's what I'm saying because no one "needs" to do either of those professions.

Fair enough.

Would you define any particular food item as a need? Is a good steak a need? Is a bowl of rice a need? Is broccoli a need?

Depends on context. "Food" is a need, but specific things... it depends. If a steak is all there is to eat, yeah, you need it.

I don't think I am being ambiguous or contrary at all, defining my definition of "need." Personally, I am kind of baffled a couple of you are so confused about it.

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 14 2015,18:15

I'm not confused at all, you're just wrong about what need means.

Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 14 2015,18:28

(GORDON @ Sep. 14 2015,20:12)

QUOTE

Depends on context.

I'm going to give that bit a pass because it's slightly confusing in the sense that you've been pretty clear that needs are not relative but rather absolutes, and this runs counter to that. That's more like what Catt and I have been saying. But I digress...

QUOTE

"Food" is a need, but specific things... it depends. If a steak is all there is to eat, yeah, you need it.

Great. So in general no particular food item is a need, it's more that the general concept of food as fuel for the body is a need. I presume the same would be true of shelter and clothing in that no particular shelter or clothing is a need but rather the need is the concept of protection from the elements.

Are there no other conceptual needs? What about mobility; is the ability to move and acquire those needful resources a need? How about information; is sight and hearing a need in so much as they assist in finding those resources?

I promise I'm not being tricky, just fleshing out the boundaries of need versus luxury.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 14 2015,18:30

Probably the best resource for the definition would be my kid's 3rd grade teacher who taught those 7 year old kids the difference between wants and needs, leading to more than one dinner time conversation about it. My kid didn't seem overly confused about the simple subject, but then he wasn't nitpicking this much, either.

Posted by Alhazad on Sep. 14 2015,18:35

(GORDON @ Sep. 14 2015,18:30)

QUOTE

Your assertion is that the subject is best understood by brains that aren't accustomed to thinking about nuances and degrees of relevance?

Bold.

Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 14 2015,18:36

You can "live" as a permanent vegetable or (at the other extreme) a brain in a jar. Anything else is luxury. Shit, you don't need higher brain functions, either. Lobotomies for everyone.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 14 2015,18:50

(Alhazad @ Sep. 14 2015,21:35)

QUOTE

(GORDON @ Sep. 14 2015,18:30)

QUOTE

Your assertion is that the subject is best understood by brains that aren't accustomed to thinking about nuances and degrees of relevance?

Bold.

I'm seriously amazed that such a simple discussion was blown so out of proportion.

Posted by Alhazad on Sep. 14 2015,18:56

(GORDON @ Sep. 14 2015,18:50)

QUOTE

I'm seriously amazed that such a simple discussion was blown so out of proportion.

Well, everyone was pretty miffed that you cut off the list of what's essential at such a Dark Ages level of technology.

Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 14 2015,19:02

(GORDON @ Sep. 14 2015,20:30)

QUOTE

One man's nitpicking is another's penetrating inquisition.

Posted by GORDON on Sep. 14 2015,19:13

(Alhazad @ Sep. 14 2015,21:56)

QUOTE

(GORDON @ Sep. 14 2015,18:50)

QUOTE

I'm seriously amazed that such a simple discussion was blown so out of proportion.

Well, everyone was pretty miffed that you cut off the list of what's essential at such a Dark Ages level of technology.

Catt says I don't know what I am talking about, TPR says I am changing parameters on the fly, and you say I am not allowing for modern tech.

I don't know why but people REALLY want to believe smart phones are needed to live. Whatever. This conversation stopped being fun yesterday.

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 14 2015,19:13

(GORDON @ Sep. 14 2015,21:30)

QUOTE

This is the part that miffs me, if anything.

One teacher in bumfuck is teaching little kids simple concrete things at a time when conceptual understanding and moving beyond concrete terms is difficult, yet Gordon holds that as the Gold Standard of what a word means.

Need has many definitions. They learned a part of what a word means. The teacher did a shitty job.

Posted by Leisher on Sep. 14 2015,19:57

I have read NONE of this thread, although I've noticed "grumpiness". I do want to say that I think the bar of "want" and "need" moves for each person based on their desires, beliefs, goals, job, lifestyle, etc.

Amish people think you're all spoiled dicks with your central air and heating.

Some CEO who also lives to hike is grateful technology allows his satellite phone to work when he's mountain climbing. Yes, convenience can be a need.

I don't think there's a black and white line that determines want and need for everyone. The line moves for each person.

Posted by Alhazad on Sep. 14 2015,20:03

(GORDON @ Sep. 14 2015,19:13)

QUOTE

No, I'm saying you're being obtuse, either on accident or intentionally to provoke a fight.

Needs don't exist without goals, so there is no such thing as an absolute need. You assumed everyone knew which goal you meant, didn't define the goal, left the other participants to supply their own, and then got annoyed at them for supplying goals with more personal meanings or discussing your lack of definition. I guessed at your goal, but it's surely not urbane to get mad at your other friends for not doing so.

Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 14 2015,20:16

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 15 2015,06:01

I thought Gordon < wanted an argument. >

Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 15 2015,09:25

So, no one wants to answer my questions about needs as concepts instead of concretes? I was going somewhere with that, you know.

Oh, well. Nevermind.

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 15 2015,10:40

(TPRJones @ Sep. 15 2015,12:25)

QUOTE

So, no one wants to answer my questions about needs as concepts instead of concretes? I was going somewhere with that, you know.

Oh, well. Nevermind.

Ok, needs are concepts... Go

Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 15 2015,13:35

Nope, it's too late now. GORDON's son's teacher has spoken and needs are defined as food, clothing, and shelter and that's all there is to it.

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 15 2015,14:19

(TPRJones @ Sep. 15 2015,16:35)

QUOTE

Nope, it's too late now. GORDON's son's teacher has spoken and needs are defined as food, clothing, and shelter and that's all there is to it.

Well, she got 1 out of 5 right.

Posted by TheCatt on Sep. 21 2015,09:26

I think Gordon rage quit.

Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 21 2015,09:33

noob

Posted by Malcolm on Sep. 22 2015,10:32

Internet < = > necessity.

Posted by TPRJones on Sep. 22 2015,10:36

I'm down. I mean I'd rather not, but as long as we're wasting everyone's money on horseshit, we might as well get good cheap broadband out of it.