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Forum: General Stuff
Topic: Progressivism vs. Conservatism
started by: GORDON

Posted by GORDON on Jun. 29 2013,10:20

Just a random thought I have been thinking about:

I have experienced that since I became a parent, I look at the world from a different angle... where once in my youth I called to war (to quote Thor), I now have different priorities that are more about self preservation of my genetic line than of changing the world. To nutshell it.

I have done some reading lately that reinforces my own thoughts on the matter. The hypothesis was put forward that young people want to change the world to prove they belong in it. They certainly are not born with an innate wisdom that the olds just don't get, after all, so they tell the world HEY LOOK AT ME with progress for the sake of progress. Mature parents want the world to be stable because, since they have had children, they KNOW they belong in the world, they are now part of humanity for the long haul, and now it is time to raise them with as little danger as possible.

Thoughts?

Posted by Malcolm on Jun. 29 2013,15:51

I don't want to change the world to prove I belong.

Posted by Troy on Jun. 29 2013,16:44

Ban childbirth, go progress!

Posted by GORDON on Jun. 29 2013,17:41

(Malcolm @ Jun. 29 2013,18:51)

QUOTE

I don't want to change the world to prove I belong.

then why

Posted by Malcolm on Jun. 30 2013,09:45

(Troy @ Jun. 29 2013,18:44)

QUOTE

Ban childbirth, go progress!

I don't know about ban. But again I must point out the evolutionary usefulness of being able to procreate before your brain fully develops has passed.

Posted by Malcolm on Jun. 30 2013,09:51

(GORDON @ Jun. 29 2013,19:41)

QUOTE

(Malcolm @ Jun. 29 2013,18:51)

QUOTE

I don't want to change the world to prove I belong.

then why

Firstly, not every action I take is directed at the world at large, or even at all. Secondly, why do I need a reason, or even a valid one?

Posted by GORDON on Jun. 30 2013,10:43

(Malcolm @ Jun. 30 2013,12:51)

QUOTE

(GORDON @ Jun. 29 2013,19:41)

QUOTE

(Malcolm @ Jun. 29 2013,18:51)

QUOTE

I don't want to change the world to prove I belong.

then why

Firstly, not every action I take is directed at the world at large, or even at all. Secondly, why do I need a reason, or even a valid one?

So........

you live in a haze of perpetual adolescence?

Posted by Malcolm on Jun. 30 2013,10:58

Stop projecting your Hayden Christiansen angst on to me.

No, I just don't ascribe deep motivation or meaning to most things I do, nor do I worry myself with doing so. I do what I do because I am what I am. Once I find the world non-absurd, I may reflect further.

QUOTE

According to one story, Diogenes [of Sinope] went to the Oracle at Delphi to ask for its advice and was told that he should "deface the currency”. Following the debacle in Sinope, Diogenes decided that the oracle meant that he should deface the political currency rather than actual coins. He traveled to Athens and made it his life's goal to challenge established customs and values.

If tradition is really solidified and practical, it ought to have no trouble with a periodic test of its mettle.

Posted by GORDON on Jun. 30 2013,11:02

I'm just saying when you are responsible to no one or nothing except yourself... isn't that pretty much a life of perpetual adolescence?

Posted by Malcolm on Jun. 30 2013,11:09

(GORDON @ Jun. 30 2013,13:02)

QUOTE

I'm just saying when you are responsible to no one or nothing except yourself... isn't that pretty much a life of perpetual adolescence?

If you'd like to twist that into sufficient cause, then sure, it's your psyche, your rules.

My brain doesn't even register your premise as possible, though, so the implication doesn't even have meaning for me.

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 01 2013,10:17

QUOTE

They certainly are not born with an innate wisdom that the olds just don't get, after all,

I 100% disagree. Well, okay, no, not "born with". But youngsters grow up in a different world from their parents so they are themselves different, with a new understanding and a fresh perspective that the older generation is almost universally incapable of comprehending. This has always been true for every generation, but is of course much more pronounced now that technological advancement has made is so that the world and society can become radically different in the space of a generation.

Every generation has a new and unique perspective that can help make the world a better place. Just like every generation before it did. If only the old people will just stop being such a roadblock to progress. Just like the old people before them.

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 01 2013,10:20

QUOTE

I'm just saying when you are responsible to no one or nothing except yourself... isn't that pretty much a life of perpetual adolescence?

No. Having a job and making your own way in the world is hardly adolescence. You don't have to spawn children to be a responsible adult.

Now, if you will include an allowance and free room and board and stuff like that, then we can talk.

Posted by GORDON on Jul. 01 2013,11:43

(TPRJones @ Jul. 01 2013,13:17)

QUOTE

They certainly are not born with an innate wisdom that the olds just don't get, after all,

So, you're saying that a clean-slate mind trumps wisdom?

What is it about humanity that changes so radically from one generation to the next? Technology advancements just make it easier to throw a stone or project your voice. "People" don't change all that much, they still eat and shit and fuck and are lazy and productive and hateful and forgiving. That never changes. So why are the inexperienced better at steering than the experienced, in your reasoning?

Posted by TheCatt on Jul. 01 2013,12:05

I'm with Gordon on this latest one. People don't change that much, society doesn't change that much. Does it change? Sure. But not nearly at the pace of reinventing every generation.

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 01 2013,12:06

QUOTE

So, you're saying that a clean-slate mind trumps wisdom?

Yes and no. It seems that each generation is more tolerant than the one before and young people are much more willing to learn and understand new things instead of clinging to their traditions and preconceptions. Wisdom is a good thing, but also something very few people (both old and young) have, and seems to be pretty much independent of age so is irrelevant to this discussion. My experience has been that young people are sometimes capable of understanding the viewpoint of the elderly, but the reverse is much more rare.

People don't change all that much over time in an evolutionary sense, no, but society does. And the pace has accelerated. If you told my grandfather when he was young that one day a black man would be President and gays would marry he'd have 1) not believed you and then possibly 2) punched you for saying things he considered horribly offensive. I think the fact that such things generally no longer lead to violence is a good thing. And it's not just about social issues but about perspective; how much time did you spend chatting with people from around the globe when you were growing up? Did you frequently spend your time reading reference materials like encyclopedias? People do a lot more than spend time eating and pooping; they also seek entertainment and these days that often comes with a side-dish of learning. Ours did, too, but it was different; we probably spent a lot more time learning social niceties by hanging out with friends and less learning about global politics. It's not that theirs is now better but just different, and it's always good to have new and different perspectives available to approach the world with along side the older ones.

In short: if you automatically write off change and new things as bad, then you are part of the problem and probably an old person.

Posted by GORDON on Jul. 01 2013,12:08

(TPRJones @ Jul. 01 2013,13:20)

QUOTE

I'm just saying when you are responsible to no one or nothing except yourself... isn't that pretty much a life of perpetual adolescence?

I've been thinking about this statement for the last few hours.

Let me begin by saying that this conversation is not intended to be a personal attack on anyone in particular, I am just mentally masturbating about the meaning of life, where it is pretty much probably to be right and wrong at the same time, in my opinion. I know I am not offending Malcolm because his brain doesn't register my premise as being possible, but like I said, not attacking anyone.

I don't know that having a job gives a life meaning. It puts food on the table and a roof over your head, and it means that no one is taking care of you, but I don't know that it does anything but serve ones self. 99.9% of all jobs are meaningless, in the long term. No great works of art are being created. No lives are being saved or even changed. Thousands or millions of other people could be plugged into that same job and get it done... "the cemeteries are full of people who thought themselves irreplaceable." When one dies, for most people no one will remember them for the awesome way they filed their TPS reports on time, every time. While being capable of holding a job and paying your own bills means one is self sufficient, I don't think it goes as far as "this means I am part of civilization."

I am going to try to remember a passage of a book I read last month... I have burned through about 20 in the last 3 months, and I don't remember which it was:

On the subject of science fiction literature (paraphrased from memory):

"Not only do they have no parents, science fiction heroes never seem to marry or have kids. Most romantic heroes of science fiction novels are perpetual adolescents, lone rangers wandering the universe avoiding commitments. This is not surprising... these heroes are invariable going through the adolescent phase of life. The child phase is the time of complete dependence on others to create our identity and our worldview. Little children gladly accept even the strangest stories that others tell them, because they lack either the context or confidence to doubt. They go along because they don't know how to be alone, physically or intellectually.

Gradually, however, children catch a glimpse of the world that is different from how they perceived it, and they break away from the vestiges of parental control, much as a baby bird breaks away from the last fragment of its egg. The romantic hero is unconnected. He belongs to no community, he is wandering from place to place, doing good, but then moving on. This is the life of an adolescent, full of passion, intensity, magic, and infinite possibility, but lacking responsibility, rarely expecting to have to stay and bear the consequences of error. Everything is played at twice the speed and twice the volume in the adolescent - the romantic - life.

Only when the loneliness becomes unbearable do adolescents root themselves. It may not be the community they came from. Many fail at adulthood and constantly reach back to the freedom and passion of adolescence. But those who achieve it are the ones who create civilization."

I'll let that get shot the hell down without being contemplated before I ask any followup questions, and I might actually give up since the only people answering are the people without wives and kids, and it begins to feel like I am on a crusade or passing moral judgments or something. Which I aint. because i don't care that much. Was just thinking deep thoughts and making conversation.

Posted by GORDON on Jul. 01 2013,12:12

(TPRJones @ Jul. 01 2013,15:06)

QUOTE

My experience has been that young people are sometimes capable of understanding the viewpoint of the elderly, but the reverse is much more rare.

Ha. 100% disagree. The young can't understand the elderly, because they have not been elderly. The elderly have all been young, they remember it, and therefor they are quick to dismiss their thoughts as fucking idiotic.

I KNOW I was an idiot at 20. I know I was less of an idiot, but still an idiot, at 30. Thankfully, at 40 I have learned from this, and realize I am probably an idiot now, too, so I hopefully I wont be too shocked at 50.

But yeah, there is a difference between understanding another person's point of view, and being too old to waste time with the foolishness of it.

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 01 2013,12:16

The only response I can think of that you might consider would be this list of - by your definition - adolescents with no meaning to their lives: Socrates, Hannibal, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Virgil, Jesus Christ, the emperor Hadrian, Gregory the Great, the Venerable Bede, St. Boniface, Hildebrand, Abelard and Heloise, Joan of Arc, Savonarola, Erasmus, Leonardo da Vinci, Queen Catherine Howard, Lady Jane Grey, Mary I, Elizabeth I, Henry III of France, Queen Christina of Sweden, Newton, William III and Mary II, Charles II of Spain, Alexander Pope, Frederick the Great of Prussia, Charlotte Corday, Alexander I of Russia, George Washington, Jane Austen, John Keats, Jane and Thomas Carlyle, Pio Nono, Florence Nightingale, Emily Bronte, George Elliot, Henry James, George Bernard Shaw, Vincent van Gogh, Lenin, Sydney and Beatrice Webb, Adolf Hitler, the Duke and Duchess of Windsor, Frieda Kahlo, Edward Heath, Nowell Coward, and Anne Frank.

QUOTE

99.9% of all jobs are meaningless, in the long term. No great works of art are being created. No lives are being saved or even changed.

That's because 99.9% of all great art and great actions that make a difference weren't done as part of a job. In almost all cases having a job is just about paying the bills, it's what you do in your free time when you aren't working to pay the bills that really makes the impact. And I'd argue that having kids gives you less free time, thus reducing your potential to impact history.

Posted by GORDON on Jul. 01 2013,12:17

(TPRJones @ Jul. 01 2013,15:06)

QUOTE

In short: if you automatically write off change and new things as bad, then you are part of the problem and probably an old person.

I never did that. I never stated anything... I have been asking questions through this thread, to promote discussion. I once asked if "change" is always good, since it seemed to be implied, and I was asking for clarification.

Unless you were using the figurative "you," and not the definite "you," meaning "GORDON." I was using figurative "you" earlier.

We should switch to "One automatically writes off..."

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 01 2013,12:17

QUOTE

I KNOW I was an idiot at 20. I know I was less of an idiot, but still an idiot, at 30. Thankfully, at 40 I have learned from this, and realize I am probably an idiot now, too, so I hopefully I wont be too shocked at 50.

Yeah, see, there you are unusual. Most old people have forgotten how stupid they were, which puts them on an even footing there with the young. Except with fewer still-functioning brain cells.

Posted by GORDON on Jul. 01 2013,12:18

(TPRJones @ Jul. 01 2013,15:16)

QUOTE

99.9% of all jobs are meaningless, in the long term. No great works of art are being created. No lives are being saved or even changed.

But you were the one who suggested that holding a job meant you were out of your adolescent phase of life.... I was disagreeing and asking how that was so.

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 01 2013,12:18

(GORDON @ Jul. 01 2013,14:17)

QUOTE

Unless you were using the figurative "you," and not the definite "you," meaning "GORDON." I was using figurative "you" earlier.

Yes, I was using the figurative "you". Trust me, when I get ready to call you old and useless I'll be sure to use your name directly. You've got a couple of useful years left in you, though.

Posted by GORDON on Jul. 01 2013,12:20

(TPRJones @ Jul. 01 2013,15:16)

QUOTE

It's awesome that you just listed 35, or so, people in all of history who changed the world and/or were born into nobility. What does that mean to a few other billion people in the world looking for meaning in their lives?

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 01 2013,12:24

(GORDON @ Jul. 01 2013,14:18)

QUOTE

But you were the one who suggested that holding a job meant you were out of your adolescent phase of life.... I was disagreeing and asking how that was so.

Because adolescence is a time to living with your parents like a parasite. If you are no longer a parasite living off the work of another then you are by definition no longer an adolescent.

I thought you were going off on a tangent here and was answering that point along side the other. Are you implying that no < adolescent > < has ever > < done > < anything > < great >?

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 01 2013,12:25

(GORDON @ Jul. 01 2013,14:20)

QUOTE

You are the one making the all-or-nothing argument that having children is the only way to find meaning or be meaningful. I only have to provide a single counter example to show you are wrong. I've provided many. I could provide many more if you prefer.

EDIT: Sorry, I meant to say asking questions that imply the all-or-nothing arguement, etc.

Posted by GORDON on Jul. 01 2013,12:26

(TPRJones @ Jul. 01 2013,15:18)

QUOTE

(GORDON @ Jul. 01 2013,14:17)

QUOTE

Unless you were using the figurative "you," and not the definite "you," meaning "GORDON." I was using figurative "you" earlier.

Yes, I was using the figurative "you". Trust me, when I get ready to call you old and useless I'll be sure to use your name directly. You've got a couple of useful years left in you, though.

I'm really concerned about pissing people off. Not my intention at all.

I think part of what prompted this line of thought is that I have a good friend my age, married, childless, and just got snipped to completely remove the possibility of every having kids.

This guy is the most "together" person I know. Was always a good kid growing up, stable family, from country folk, so he was raised with... I don't know... and old-fashioned style, by today's standards. Married a good woman, went to college and got a good job as a CAD engineer, has hobbies, built a home theater for gaming and watching movies. But didn't want kids.

I don't often get into that subject with him, because I never wanted to be that guy who has a kid and then bugs his friends about it... but his vasectomy pretty much brought it up, when he mentioned it to me. I asked, "So that's it, definitely no kids, eh?" And he told me his goal in life: to never have people bugging him. "I have built a nice home that I enjoy being in, so I am not out and about with people annoying me. I invite who I want to come over, when I want them to come over. I make enough money that I never have to bug people for favors. I am on the do-not-call list, and we screen calls. Why would I want kids, when their sole intention in life is to bug you?"

And I think that was the saddest thing I ever heard anyone say.

Posted by GORDON on Jul. 01 2013,12:29

(TPRJones @ Jul. 01 2013,15:25)

QUOTE

(GORDON @ Jul. 01 2013,14:20)

QUOTE

But I said that 99.9% of people don't do anything meaningful, they aren't creating art or saving lives, and I guess I could add "they aren't capable of passing laws or starting wars" to include the list of people you mentioned. They are the .1% I excepted from my statement.

I am not sure if I agree with "living on your own = adulthood." The child phase is when mommy and daddy feed and house you, and possibly pay for your insurance. Adolescence.... the next phase... I don't know how it should be defined. Maybe... no real responsibility, all of your effort is to just amuse or take care of yourself? Still formulating thoughts.

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 01 2013,12:35

(GORDON @ Jul. 01 2013,14:26)

QUOTE

And I think that was the ~~saddest~~ wisest thing I ever heard anyone say.

There, I fixed it for you.

I am selfish. I know this, and I acknowledge it, and I plan for it. Unlike my mother who was just as horribly selfish but decided to subject a child to a fetid combination of neglect and her selfish bullshit, I intend to never have children that have to suffer through that. That doesn't mean I don't do good things for the world; last year I personally donated over $2000 to children's charities and helped to raise another $50,000. I have founded a scholarship fund for the kid of my best college buddies and it's up over $1000 in just two years so at that rate might pay for one semester by the time she turns 18. I work at a college where I do what I can to steer these kids away from the foolishness of the general education degree and into something useful like welding or business.

I spend my time the way I want to, but also at the same time that includes making the world a better place for the children of others. On the whole, that puts me at a net positive, especially when compared to those so selfish they insist on bringing their own children into the world is a must before they will do anything positive.

Posted by TPRJones on Jul. 01 2013,12:42

QUOTE

But I said that 99.9% of people don't do anything meaningful

I disagree with this statement. Just because you or I haven't heard of them, that doesn't mean they didn't have some important effect on the lives around them.

Have you ever had a teacher or a doctor or a family friend (or anyone not your parents, really) that did something that was important and meaningful for you? Now picture the world as the same but with all those people removed from it; is your life in that world now radically different? If so, then they had an impact for at least one person. And for each of them there are many more having just as important an impact on other people that are not their own children.

If you want to limit this to just the people in history books then there's almost nothing to say because that's almost none of humanity. But they are the only people I can pull out of history to show you examples of because the rest aren't written into the history books to point at, by definition. That doesn't mean they never mattered.

Posted by TheCatt on Jul. 01 2013,12:58

Your buddy made his decision, and knows himself. I wouldn't say that's sad. I don't think he understands what having children means, but I don't think it's the type of thing one can put into words easily, I know I can't.

I just took a vacation with my family. It wasn't very long, but it was pretty awesome. The moment I remember best is that, to save $, we book rooms with 2 double beds for 4 people. So we had one parent sleep with a kid in each bed. And my 2 1/2 year old chose me to share her bed. The look on her face when she said "Daddy come to bed with me?" was priceless. It was like she'd won the lottery, created the cure for cancer, and defeated evil all at the same time.

Posted by Malcolm on Jul. 01 2013,13:44

QUOTE

So, you're saying that a clean-slate mind trumps wisdom?

I won't be that black/white, but the ability to, even temporarily, wipe your brain free from all the crap heaped onto it by societal/worldly expectations is beyond indispensable, if I may trump the superlative.

QUOTE

If you told my grandfather when he was young that one day a black man would be President and gays would marry he'd have 1) not believed you and then possibly 2) punched you for saying things he considered horribly offensive.

The second can still occur because humanity is just as intolerant as back in the day when Ooog started hitting Ugg with sticks because one had a nicer cave than the other.

QUOTE

I know I am not offending Malcolm because his brain doesn't register my premise as being possible, but like I said, not attacking anyone.

I find it difficult to envision a world in which someone has no responsibility towards anyone, even if society collapses and all order is swept away.

QUOTE

99.9% of all jobs are meaningless, in the long term. No great works of art are being created. No lives are being saved or even changed.

Lives being taken away or saved might be directly traceable to a one person's efforts, but the efforts of fuckloads of people beforehand mattered. Chuck Yeager breaking the sound barrier doesn't mean shit if his technicians don't keep his plane in flyable condition, because Chuck dies before doing it.

QUOTE

...young people are much more willing to learn and understand new things instead of clinging to their traditions and preconceptions.

QUOTE

I'm about 75% with G here. The young are more apt to try new, wacky shit because, well, they've not tried it yet, and their rubbery brains think they're flexible enough to handle the consequences. The elderly who dismiss things as "youthful idiocy" and don't even try are more apt to shy away from risk, particularly if it reminds them of a stupid idea they tried in the past. Their brains resemble concrete. Just because you tried and it didn't work, whatever. Could be a solution for someone else.

QUOTE

Not only do they have no parents, science fiction heroes never seem to marry or have kids...

My favourite sci-fi < protagonist >, complete with a wife and two kids.

QUOTE

And I think that was the saddest thing I ever heard anyone say.

Why? If you're just going off that last sentence about kids being around just to bug you, then yeah, that seems kind of depressing. But it's his life, his psyche, his goals.

QUOTE

99.9% of people don't do anything meaningful for you, directly, in particular. What's "meaning?" Getting some peace treaty signed? Painting the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel? Finishing an entire set of volumes on the whole of world history up to this point in time? Giving up all your material possessions and joining a Buddhist monastery? Having loads of descendants? I'd argue meaning can be found in less glamourous, less drastic actions. I'd furthermore argue they take place every day and that they're performed by more than 0.1% of the population. You aren't the subject or object of those actions, though, so you don't notice them.