Thunderdome 2015 » Printable Version of Topic » Star Wars 4 or Independence Day?

Forum: General Stuff
Topic: Star Wars 4 or Independence Day?
started by: GORDON

Posted by GORDON on May 21 2013,20:30

Of the two, which is the "best summer movie?"

This came up in our voice chat the other night, and after a moment of reflection I answered that if given a choice, I would watch Independence Day. Cakedaddy said immediately that this is the reason people hate me.

I thought about my answer a bit since then, and I realized why I feel the way I feel.... it is because if SWe4 is on TV, then it is going to be the George Lucas re-release with a bunch of anger-inducing, unnecessary changes, and I absolutely cannot enjoy the movie any more because of them.

As far as I am concerned, unless we can get a cleaned up, 1080P version of the movies AS THEY WERE ORIGINALLY SCREENED, then I am done with them. Until then, they no longer exist, just like Lucas told us.

Posted by TPRJones on May 22 2013,06:12

Crappy Overworked Ep 4 >> Independence Day

The only good thing about ID was the white house getting blown up. The rest of it was crap. It's an all-around bad movie, but not bad enough to be enjoyable for being bad.

Independence Day is on par with SyFy original movies.

Posted by Leisher on May 22 2013,06:24

Cake is right. This is why people hate you.

"George Lucas added some special effects I don't like so instead I'd rather watch a tremendously awful movie where the humans only won because they inserted a computer virus into the aliens using the most proprietary computing system in human history that just happens to be compatible with the alien computers."

Oh, and let's not forget the crop dusters flying F-22s like they're the Blue Angels and about a million other things that made this movie terrible. (Remember when that UFO crashed, and 5 minutes later they had it in a lab in Area 51, which was hundreds of miles away from that crash site? What'd they do? Get a bunch of teamsters to go out, recover it, and then haul it during an alien invasion? Thank goodness Will Smith knew how to fly that craft, and it was a perfect fit for his body, which wasn't odd at all considering the aliens were about 3 feet tall, and their exoskeletons were 8 feet tall...)

I'm not going to discount a historic film just because its creator made some genuinely stupid changes to it years later. That doesn't put ID on its level.

Besides, someday someone is going to make Greedo shoot first again officially. Nobody can ever make ID a good movie.

Posted by TPRJones on May 22 2013,06:31

QUOTE

Remember when that UFO crashed, and 5 minutes later they had it in a lab in Area 51, which was hundreds of miles away from that crash site?

Much as I don't like ID, I have to defend it here. That wasn't the same ship. That ship crashed at Roswell in the 40s and has been sitting around not working (because no power from the mother ships) since.

Posted by GORDON on May 22 2013,06:36

(Leisher @ May 22 2013,09:24)

QUOTE

Besides, someday someone is going to make Greedo shoot first again officially. Nobody can ever make ID a good movie.

Then someday, Ep4 may be worth watching again...

You have a problem with someone flying an FA/18 Super Hornet who is a commercial pilot and used to fly F4s in combat in Nam, but have no problem with a farm boy who has lots of time on a trainer but then takes out an X-Wing, which he never flew before, and uses magic to blow up a nearly impregnable space station?

And granted, I have never liked the Apple computer interfacing with the alien wifi hotspot, but I am willing to reconsider it because Jeff Goldblum was already shown to be a signals genius and maybe the mother fucker had some adaptable software to learn from and interface with anything binary. He already had access to everything Area 51 learned from their systems over 30 years. Damned near impossible, but who knows.... I just doubt he pulled out "Generic system hacking app 47" that he uses to hack into unsecured DLink routers, as was my original impression.

I am not sure what you mean about a UFO crashing and 5 minutes later they had it at Area 51. The UFO they had at Area 51 was the one that crashed at Roswell 30 years ago.

Posted by TheCatt on May 22 2013,07:51

Episode IV is the better movie. But ID is the better "summer" movie.

Posted by Cakedaddy on May 22 2013,07:58

If Goldblum was the genius you are describing, he would have been using a PC. What scientific lab, anywhere, uses Macs?

It's not magic. It's the force. And Luke was the most gifted with it, ever, and had already started training with it.

And Quaid wasn't the only crop dusting pilot they recruited. They took anyone with a pilot's license. And an F/18 flies WAY WAY WAY different than anything a civilian would be flying.

Posted by GORDON on May 22 2013,07:59

He said he flew jets in Nam. He was not an inexperienced fighter pilot.

Posted by Leisher on May 22 2013,08:12

QUOTE

I will withdrawn my criticism there, but you'll still have to explain how Will Smith could fly it or even fit into the seat.

But hey, quick question: Why did that ship crash? (I honestly don't remember, and I'm curious.)

QUOTE

You have a problem with someone flying an FA/18 Super Hornet who is a commercial pilot and used to fly F4s in combat in Nam, but have no problem with a farm boy who has lots of time on a trainer but then takes out an X-Wing, which he never flew before, and uses magic to blow up a nearly impregnable space station?

Not someone, an entire squadron of people. Going from a Cessna to an F-22 during combat is like taking someone off a tricycle and sticking them into a NASCAR event, AND having them not only compete, but win against professional drivers.

Even if the person could grasp the concept of flying said plane because those concepts are basically the same, the weapons systems and air combat tactics are an entirely different thing.

Yeah, I realize it was a rag tag group, and I get the purpose of it for the story, but you're the one forcing the comparisons because "Han didn't shoot first".

As for the magic, what's the problem with it? You certainly as fuck don't have a problem with it because you obviously LOVE the movie or you wouldn't be mad about the changes Lucas made.

That Death Star wasn't impregnable. There was a 2 meter exhaust port that someone discovered was its weakness. That kid used the "Force" to pilot his craft (also helped by a robot) and make that shot.

Meanwhile, a drunk crop duster with a Phoenix missile that misfired is able to fly his jet through a sky full of professional combat pilots flying far more advanced craft and ram it into the giant ship's primary energy weapon, which caused the entire ship to be destroyed for some reason. All without the aid of "magic" or the "force".

Han shooting first doesn't make ID a better movie than A New Hope.

And understand, I grew up with Greedo shooting first, still think he did, and refuse to buy any of the movies on DVD until that is changed back to the way it should be, but saying ID is the better watch is just insanity. ID sucked.

Also, this:

QUOTE

If Goldblum was the genius you are describing, he would have been using a PC. What scientific lab, anywhere, uses Macs?

Nobody in the real world uses Macs.

Posted by GORDON on May 22 2013,09:41

I was just nitpicking your nitpicking. We both seem to accept one form of silliness but not another.

And it isn't just greedo shooting first, which is, granted, a fucking travesty. It is the major color adjustments across entire scenes. And the filler animals everywhere. And the fact that they said they were going to clean up the special effects, like.... and I don't know the industry terminology for this.... the little frames around the spaceships that were visible against the black starfields... and then they didn't fucking fix it.

They made Darth Vader's light saber pink.

It is this.

How can anyone our age see this crap and not get angry?

The movie we loved no longer exists.

Posted by Leisher on May 22 2013,10:22

But it took a man coming along 20 years later and altering the original movie to make it shit to you.

ID sucked from day one.

That's my point.

Star Wars is still Star Wars, it just has a shitty paint job right now.

Posted by TPRJones on May 22 2013,10:32

Just because someone took a dump in your Bugatti Veyron doesn't mean your Yugo is now a better car.

Posted by GORDON on May 22 2013,10:41

(TPRJones @ May 22 2013,13:32)

QUOTE

Just because someone took a dump in your Bugatti Veyron doesn't mean your Yugo is now a better car.

If someone took a shit on the seat of my nice car, I will prefer to drive the Yugo until the nice car is taken care of, because I don't want to sit in a pile of shit in an otherwise nice car. Thus, I don't want to watch Star Wars until it is unfucked.

Which is why I would rather watch ID than SW.

Posted by TPRJones on May 22 2013,11:28

What I don't get is why ID in particular? Why watch a crappy movie at all? Watch a good movie instead, they are better.

Or are is this some sort of self-flagellation situation?

Posted by GORDON on May 22 2013,13:43

First of all, I like ID, so fuck all y'all.

Secondly, someone else had the poll, someone else brought it up in a voice chat during gaming the other night.

Posted by Malcolm on May 22 2013,14:27

QUOTE

As far as I am concerned, unless we can get a cleaned up, 1080P version of the movies AS THEY WERE ORIGINALLY SCREENED, then I am done with them. Until then, they no longer exist, just like Lucas told us.

That's what pretty much locked up my vote.

QUOTE

and maybe the mother fucker had some adaptable software to learn from and interface with anything binary

?!?! Shit, a couple decades ago, the gov't had enough trouble transferring data from hard copy to digital format. Their software kung fu ain't that great.

QUOTE

It's not magic. It's the force.

Yeah. It's not magic. It's tiny, microscopic creatures that live in your bloodstream and somehow enable you to do magic.

QUOTE

And Luke was the most gifted with it, ever

Wonder what the general consensus of the dudes on Alderan is about that. Would've been nice if he could've crippled the Empire before they pointed the Death Star at the place. He was probably too busy screaming, "No!!!!"

Posted by TPRJones on May 22 2013,14:51

(GORDON @ May 22 2013,15:43)

QUOTE

First of all, I like ID, so fuck all y'all.

Finally.

Man, that was like pulling teeth.

I enjoyed ID4 at the time well enough, but I also liked The Rock and Romeo+Juliet so clearly I had awful taste in movies at the time. ID4 isn't really as bad as SyFy original pictures. But I sure wouldn't go digging it up to watch it, not when there's so much better content out there to enjoy.

Posted by TheCatt on May 22 2013,18:24

I liked all 3 of those movies, and remember R+J fondly... but admittedly have never rewatched any of them.

Posted by Malcolm on May 23 2013,07:30

Is ID4 bad? Yeah. Is it, say House of the Dead 2 bad? No. Is it Scientology presents "War of the Worlds" bad? No. It's watchable.

QUOTE

but I also liked The Rock and Romeo+Juliet so clearly I had awful taste in movies at the time

The latter is a piece of shit. The former is enjoyable.

Posted by Leisher on May 24 2013,06:01

< Yahoo makes a better comparison... >

Posted by Malcolm on May 24 2013,07:58

(Leisher @ May 24 2013,08:01)

QUOTE

< Yahoo makes a better comparison... >

If it's between those two, then I'd go Star Wars.

Posted by TheCatt on May 24 2013,08:01

Avengers

Posted by Leisher on May 24 2013,08:09

I went Avengers too.

Malcolm did you honestly just imply ID is better than Avengers because if so, you have lost all credibility.

I mean that's beyond "bah, he just hates everything" and well into "he must be an executive at EA" levels of insanity.

Posted by Malcolm on May 24 2013,08:17

I found the Avengers to be semi-disappointing. My expectations of ID4 are so much lower.

Posted by Leisher on May 24 2013,08:34

Being less disappointed by a film because you knew it would suck doesn't make it better than a film you were hoping would be better in line with what you expected.

Posted by Malcolm on May 24 2013,09:04

Loki's IQ dropped to such a level that I mistook him for Randy Quaid a couple times.

Posted by GORDON on May 24 2013,09:57

(Malcolm @ May 24 2013,12:04)

QUOTE

Loki's IQ dropped to such a level that I mistook him for Randy Quaid a couple times.

Unless for some reason he wanted to be taken back to Asgard as a vanquished foe. Loki is supposed to be the ultimate trickster.... his actions always seemed too straight forward in The Avengers.

Posted by Malcolm on May 24 2013,11:14

Every single goddamn Avenger, including the fucking Hulk, managed to fool him. I repeat, a dude whose vocabulary consists of his name suffixed by "smash" managed to outwit the Trickster god. It's like he was lobotomized immediately after the Thor movie.

Posted by GORDON on May 24 2013,15:36

(Malcolm @ May 24 2013,14:14)

QUOTE

Getting taken out just as you start your evil, triumphant monologue is very much a Whedonism. I could be wrong, maybe he was just meant to be a chump, but until Avengers 2 proves me wrong I will still be imagining a longer game Loki is playing.

How did he manage to get "tricked" by Hulk, though? Hulk jumped up to Starks house, was about to beat Loki's ass, Lokie yells, "Wait! I am a god... yaddah..." then beaten like the world's dirtiest rug by the world's angriest maid. There wasn't a lot of strategizing going on there. Loki got jumped, tried to save himself from an ass whupping by talking for a moment, and failed. But then.... what... was he fresh out of holographic decoys? ;) I will just say he used up all his HoloDukes, or he just didn't have time to set it up cause Hulk jumped him and beat his ass so fast.

Posted by Malcolm on May 24 2013,17:56

The divine personification of deception and lies had no better plan than "go hand-to-hand with radioactive green wrecking machine?" Laziest fucking god ev4r. I honestly believe he was replaced by his retarded identical twin brother in between Thor and the Avengers. That's the supervillain of the movie and he's getting tossed around like a fucking rag doll? He's still a god. Come the fuck on.

Posted by Leisher on May 24 2013,21:35

Who tricked the Trickster?

Nick Fury? Nope

Coulston? No. Loki simply didn't know about that weapon.

Hulk? Nope. It doesn't take brains to grab someone. Loki simply didn't know his opponent.

Thor? No. Loki actually beats him.

Captain America? Nope. It was Loki's plan to get caught.

Iron Man? Not really. Yeah, he got his suit, but is that a "win"?

Hawkeye? How the hell is Loki supposed to know it was a trick arrow? He's not a telepath.

Black Widow? Maybe. Did she really trick Loki into disclosing his plan or was that part of the plan? I mean, didn't that lead directly into dissension and mistrust among the Avengers?

End of the day, who truly defeated Loki? He was on the verge of victory, but his allies failed him. What part of the defeat was he responsible for exactly? He held up his end of the deal. Thanos and his minions didn't.

Hell, had Thanos showed up, I'd ague that Loki's side wins.

So I think you're selling Loki short. Also, you must remember Loki isn't "evil". His character is about mischief and proving that he's better than his brother. Sometimes he does things just to fuck with people.

You're also selling the Hulk very short. His power levels are supposedly easily able to face gods. Remember Doomsday? He's the guy who killed Superman. He's essentially the Hulk. In the books, they actually say he has the power (if made mad enough) to "break planets".

But yeah, all that versus flying a 30 year old alien craft without having a fucking clue how it works, ignoring the fact that it crashed and now seems to work fine, flying it into the alien mothership without communications which us technological retard humans wouldn't allow, and then wirelessly hacking the alien computers using an OS and computer owned by less than 10% of the human population (and doing so in about 2 minutes) makes a movie worth voting for over fucking Star Wars because Lucas became a bleeding heart liberal and decided Greedo shot first.

Greedo shooting first doesn't excuse the piss poor writing of ID.

Malcolm, your voting basically went like this: ID >SW>The Avengers. You simply have zero credibility at this point. Cabin Fever is probably your favorite movie.

I'm not sure that this isn't the the stupidest thread in the history of this site.

Posted by GORDON on May 24 2013,22:56

(Leisher @ May 25 2013,00:35)

QUOTE

Greedo shooting first doesn't excuse the piss poor writing of ID.

I would have voted differently if the poll intended to pit ID4 vs. the ORIGINAL Star Wars 4, but at the moment that no longer exists.

Posted by TPRJones on May 24 2013,23:26

It will always exist in our hearts.

Posted by Malcolm on May 25 2013,10:09

(TPRJones @ May 25 2013,01:26)

QUOTE

It will always exist in our ~~hearts~~ mitochlorians.

Star Wars has an asterisk by it. I expected more from the Avengers. The Titan of Death showing up might have evened the playing field.

Posted by Malcolm on May 25 2013,10:12

QUOTE

Cabin Fever is probably your favorite movie.

Said the man who defends "Jersey Girl" to the hilt. And "Cabin Fever" sucked.

Posted by TPRJones on May 25 2013,10:57

I liked Jersey Girl.

What's wrong with liking Jersey Girl?

Posted by Leisher on May 25 2013,12:09

Jersey Girl didn't suck. Benifer sucked and people unfairly stuck JG into that mess.

But hey, go ahead and give me a rundown of why JG sucked. Or we're you simply caught up in Benifer madness?

Oh, and let's not forget that your opinion doesn't count anymore thanks to ID > SW > Avengers.

You're probably enjoying Jaws 4 while typing a response.

Posted by Malcolm on May 25 2013,13:18

QUOTE

You're probably enjoying Jaws 4 while typing a response.

Doesn't hold a candle to the Godzilla poster signed by Roland Emmerich you secretly own.

Posted by Leisher on May 25 2013,13:39

(Malcolm @ May 25 2013,16:18)

QUOTE

You're probably enjoying Jaws 4 while typing a response.

Doesn't hold a candle to the Godzilla poster signed by Roland Emmerich you secretly own.

Nah, I burned that. You gave it to me for Christmas, so I didn't have the heart to tell you that despite your arguments otherwise, Godzilla sucked.

Posted by Malcolm on May 25 2013,14:07

That was around the time you were touting Leonard Part 6 as genius, so I figured it was right up your alley.

Posted by GORDON on May 25 2013,15:41

This is some great snark.

I would make a joke about your mothers' favorite sexual position, but that would be beneath me.

Posted by TheCatt on May 27 2013,08:51

< Yahoo final four >

Posted by Malcolm on May 27 2013,09:03

(TheCatt @ May 27 2013,10:51)

QUOTE

< Yahoo final four >

Raiders. No contest.

Posted by Leisher on May 27 2013,09:13

(Malcolm @ May 25 2013,17:07)

QUOTE

That was around the time you were touting Leonard Part 6 as genius, so I figured it was right up your alley.

To sum up:

You have zero credibility, and there's an 80% chance that you're actually Jayden or Willow Smith.

QUOTE

Yahoo final four

Who the hell made those brackets? Simply terrible.

Posted by Malcolm on May 27 2013,09:29

(Leisher @ May 27 2013,11:13)

QUOTE

You have zero credibility, and there's an 80% chance that you're actually Jayden or Willow Smith.

Who in the fuck are they? Oh yeah, one half of the dudes that fucked up the Karate Kid.

I stand by my votes. Wasn't a huge fan of the Avengers flick.

Posted by TPRJones on May 28 2013,06:15

Truth be told I didn't think Avengers was all that great, either. I enjoyed it overall, but between the emo melodrama in the middle of the film, the boring final fight, and only having one character in it that was actually interesting, I was pretty disappointed.

Posted by Leisher on May 28 2013,06:31

The Avengers is a massive success because it was pulled off. They took multiple characters, built them in various solo films, tied them all together, and kept all the actors to make the "team up" film.

The fact that it ever actually took place is a miracle. Ask Warner Brothers and DC.

The film itself was exactly what it should have been: A popcorn movie that is more spectacle than substance. There simply isn't enough time to flesh out everyone unless you want to see a 5 hour movie.

I think the biggest flaw in The Avengers is Hawkeye. He should have been given a solo film first. He simply wasn't explained enough to make the audience really get invested into him or care about him the way they did with Iron Man, Thor, Captain America, and Hulk. Even Black Widow was in the Iron Man movies prior to this one, and got a huge scene introducing us to how badass she is, while Hawkeye gets introduced and immediately becomes a bad guy.

Posted by TPRJones on May 28 2013,07:10

So it doesn't matter how well the bear dances, it only matters that it can dance?

Me, I want to see someone dance well. The fact that it's a bear doesn't interest me in the slightest. The Avengers danced well enough to justify the ticket price, but just barely. Would not watch again.

Posted by Malcolm on May 28 2013,07:25

QUOTE

The fact it happened doesn't make it awesome. Have enough dollar signs dancing in people's eyes and damn near anything's possible. And, no they didn't. Eddie Norton checked out.

QUOTE

The film itself was exactly what it should have been: A popcorn movie that is more spectacle than substance.

No, that's what I expected of ID4, if that. Bill Pullman, Randy Quaid, Will Smith, Jeff Goldblum, explosions, and aliens, ... and some other shit. I expect far move from Marvel's A-Team.

QUOTE

I think the biggest flaw in The Avengers is Hawkeye.

I've been saying that for over a decade now.

Posted by Leisher on May 28 2013,09:41

QUOTE

So it doesn't matter how well the bear dances, it only matters that it can dance?

Me, I want to see someone dance well. The fact that it's a bear doesn't interest me in the slightest. The Avengers danced well enough to justify the ticket price, but just barely. Would not watch again.

Emphasis mine. Quite honestly, that's probably enough for most movie goers. I can't say the same for 90% of the films I've seen in my lifetime.

I honestly thought the bear danced well. My complaints about the film is that they needed far more time to really give everyone the screen time they deserved. I think hindsight being what it is, had they known what The Avengers script was going to be, they could have given Coulson more screen time, given Black Widow more detail, and given Hawkeye his own movie.

However, is it realistic? Maybe, maybe not. Had they known about Iron Man, they might have had a better plan in place.

And no matter what you think of the movie, it's an amazing accomplishment to have even made it. Everyone in Hollywood agrees.

And for the record, I could hindsight just about every movie ever made. I could decimate them and talk about all the flaws and whatnot. Look at the big Hollywood blockbusters. They've been mostly disappointments thanks to tons of hype.

For example: Nolan's Batman trilogy.

QUOTE

The fact it happened doesn't make it awesome. Have enough dollar signs dancing in people's eyes and damn near anything's possible.

Says the person who would have seen Neil Armstrong walking on the moon and asked why we're there just to plant a flag, and why aren't we colonizing it yet, and what a huge waste of money, and blah blah blah.

QUOTE

And, no they didn't. Eddie Norton checked out.

Correction, Ed Norton didn't check out, he was fired. Ed Norton is well on his way to being the new Val Kilmer. (Great actor, but so difficult to work with that nobody will.) Also, for the record, he wanted to come back.

QUOTE

No, that's what I expected of ID4, if that. Bill Pullman, Randy Quaid, Will Smith, Jeff Goldblum, explosions, and aliens, ... and some other shit.

So three high quality actors team up with a guy who has become a parody of himself, and they get to make a popcorn film, but one quality actor teamed up with a handful of up and comers, and one guy who has become a parody of himself, and they get no slack? Has the thought ever crossed your mind that perhaps you're the problem here and not the movie?

I mean, you aren't exactly known for your agreeable disposition.

QUOTE

I've been saying that for over a decade now.

We're not talking comics. But if we were, you'd still be wrong. He's getting all sorts of love in the comics, and has been for a while now. He even has his own series.

But yes, in the Marvel movie universe, he needs to be fleshed out more.

Posted by Malcolm on May 28 2013,09:51

QUOTE

For example: Nolan's Batman trilogy.

That's an entirely different thread. I saw those movies decrease in quality as they went on. Going to be a long, long time before I check the second or third film.

QUOTE

We're not talking comics. But if we were, you'd still be wrong. He's getting all sorts of love in the comics, and has been for a while now. He even has his own series.

"Hey, super soldier from WWII, billionaire dude with a suit that turns you into a flying, jet-powered, laser-shooting tank, hammer-wielding Norse deity, and green gamma ray mutant super strength dude with the mind of a genius scientist, could I have everyone's attention for a minute? You're going to be teaming up with a couple of the top trained assassins humanity has to offer. They can jump really high and shoot things accurately while running."