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GORDON 
90%
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 36125
Joined: Jun. 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 30 2011,19:05 |
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http://bigpeace.com/stzu....-scopes
QUOTE “MARINE CORPS BASE QUANTICO, Va. — In a significant reversal, the Marine Corps has begun using optics at entry-level training, and could do so on a permanent basis beginning next year.
The scopes will be used by recruits based at Parris Island, S.C., and San Diego beginning in July as part of a pilot program, said Col. Timothy Armstrong, head of Weapons Training Battalion based here. Two companies of new lieutenants here at The Basic School already have trained with them, and shown dramatic improvements in how they shoot, Marine officials said.
I disagree with this. Learn the basics of marksmanship in Basic, then perhaps practice the scopes in MCT (Marine Combat Training) that happens for a month after Basic. Maybe add a week on to MCT and just have them at the range.... just like the week you spend at the range in boot camp.
I sez.
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I don't give a fuck!
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| Post Number: 2
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Cakedaddy
Group: "Members"
Posts: 6241
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jul. 01 2011,00:38 |
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Why? As long as ALL weapons are issued with scopes, no need to learn without. Granted, scope could become damaged and then you'd have to switch over. But given the increase in accuracy among your peers, the average accuracy of a platoon will still be greater than if everyone was trained well on iron sites and no scopes.
I call it progress. There isn't much time spent on hand-to-hand combat, because advanced weapons capabilities have removed the need for it. Issuing scopes on all weapons removes the need for in depth iron sites training.
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| Post Number: 3
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Leisher
Top 3%, yo.
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 26651
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jul. 01 2011,05:49 |
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No, a reliance on technology will get your ass killed.
A shooter should always learn the basics before moving to scopes and a soldier should always learn how to fight hand to hand before moving onto the better technology.
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Malcolm
I disagree.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 27168
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jul. 01 2011,15:36 |
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As one of my former high school teachers said, "We keep giving the kids better and better tools, but they just keep getting stupider and stupider." I think Isaac has an opinion.
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Diogenes of Sinope:
"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:
"Better dead than smeg."
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| Post Number: 5
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| Post Number: 6
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GORDON
90%
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 36125
Joined: Jun. 2004
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Posted on: Jul. 10 2011,08:57 |
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Leisher is correct.
Basic is for the basics.
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| Post Number: 7
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| Post Number: 8
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Cakedaddy
Group: "Members"
Posts: 6241
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jul. 10 2011,10:21 |
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Well, I'm glad I was issued an M-16, and not a sword. You know, the basic weapon. I'll take the technology of modern warfare over the 'basic' shit you guys are pushing.
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| Post Number: 9
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GORDON
90%
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 36125
Joined: Jun. 2004
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Posted on: Jul. 10 2011,11:46 |
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Gotta walk before you run.
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| Post Number: 10
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| Post Number: 11
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| Post Number: 12
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Cakedaddy
Group: "Members"
Posts: 6241
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jul. 11 2011,08:57 |
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When it came to the hand to hand, how confident are you that the training you had would have ANY impact on your odds of surviving an encounter. We spent about a week on hand to hand, and the moves they trained us on were ridiculous. Most would NEVER work in real life. When your opponent LETS you do them to him, they work great. For them to be of any use what so ever, most people would have to spend many weeks or months practicing them to become any good. And really, you'd be better off learning karate instead of learning the military moves really good. So to say the military still trains in hand to hand combat, in my experience, is a DRASTIC overstatement. Same went for bayonet training. The moves made sense, but again, it would take weeks/months to master them. How did you guys do in the q-tip duels? I got my ass kicked. I went in trying to perform the moves we were taught. Cause I thought that's what we were supposed to do. My opponent just did random whatever shit so his 'bayonet' side would make contact with me somewhere. So, my military training was worthless. I should have just done whatever I thought would score a point instead of doing what I was trained to do.
We spent weeks on the firing lines. We spent hours on hand to hand and bayonet. And, in all my years of service, I had never even seen a bayonet. Even when we went to Honduras during the Nicaraguan civil war. (where the fighting would spill into Honduras, so everyone was armed). But then, they didn't send our bolts, so, maybe they forgot the bayonet as well. But ya, "Here's your M-16 because it's a very hostile area. But, we forgot the bolts at home so we aren't going to bother giving you any ammo."
So, I call shenanigans on you guys trying to act like the military spends any real time on anything but firing weapons.
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thibodeaux
RAG
Group: Privateers
Posts: 6494
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jul. 11 2011,08:59 |
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My dad was in the Air Force in the early 60s. I asked him what kind of weapons they were taught to use in Basic. He said, "mostly they taught us how to run."
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| Post Number: 14
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Cakedaddy
Group: "Members"
Posts: 6241
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jul. 11 2011,09:05 |
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When I was in training, we heard that the air force didn't even issue M-16s!
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| Post Number: 15
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GORDON
90%
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 36125
Joined: Jun. 2004
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Posted on: Jul. 11 2011,09:16 |
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(Cakedaddy @ Jul. 11 2011,11:57)
QUOTE So, I call shenanigans on you guys trying to act like the military spends any real time on anything but firing weapons.
Wow, I should find the "yearbook" I got at the end of Basic that shows a bunch of pictures of our training, and what we trained. I am in it several times, as I recall.
You're really suggesting that Marine Corps bootcamp and National Guard training are the same thing? I guess the full 3 months we spend in Basic (and another month in combat training [the main difference is that you no longer call the sergeants "sir"]) is mostly redundant.
I think you are calling "q-tip training" we called "pugil sticks." About 40 pounds each, a coffee-can sized padded weight on each end.
We squared off platoon vs. platoon, serial deathmatch style. Each platoon formed a line at each end of a small bridge over a pool of water. The first guy from each line met in the middle, and it was anything goes until someone was swimming. The winner stayed on the bridge and the next enemy in line stepped up, repeat. The catch is that those sticks were so damned heavy, you got tired out fast, so even if your strongest guy was first in line, he wasn't going to have any strength left by the 4th or 5th guy. I personally beat 3 or 4 guys, and nobody knocked me off the bridge... apparently in the end I was knocked out on my feet, getting beaten over the head like a guy at a carnival with a big mallet trying to ring the bell, and the drill instructor stopped it, woke me up, and told me to jump in the water before I got my head knocked off. I remember very little of that last part, but I remember almost drowning when I couldn't get my limbs working together in that water that was damned cold.
I used to be a lot more resilient. Ahh, youth.
Doesn't sound much like "q-tip training" where you are going for points.
And we stabbed the shit out of some bayonet dummies. We had a couple weeks of hand to hand, which I enjoyed. DI's kept pairing me up with the monster guys because they enjoyed seeing me get my ass stomped, as I recall. Had to work hard to chop those guys down.
I wouldn't say it was WORTHLESS in a real combat situation, but it did condition us to, in a full-on battle royale with everyone out of ammo and charlie inside the wire, to not hesitate to scoop out someones eyeballs with your fingers, crush their larynx with your boot, cave in their frontal lobe with the butt of your rifle, decapitate them with your e-tool, etc in order to end the fight quickly. They teach that in the Guard?
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| Post Number: 16
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| Post Number: 17
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GORDON
90%
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 36125
Joined: Jun. 2004
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Posted on: Jul. 11 2011,10:39 |
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Let me think waaay back, and try to remember how Marine Corps Boot Camp was structured in 1991:
Keep in mind, there are no nights off, no weekends off, no phone calls, no soda pop, no contact with the outside world at any time, and you are being watched 24/7 by disagreeable Drill Instructors. Â For 12+ weeks. Â This is a huge part of the mindfuck or Marine Corps bootcamp.
First 2 days: processing. Â You get screamed at a lot, your head is shaved, you pull your uniforms and other issue, more hearing tests and shit to make sure your MEPS didn't screw up, assigned platoons. Â About 70 guys in our platoon. Â High stress.
First week: Receiving. Â Until your permanent Drill Instructors (DI) are ready to receive their next platoon, you are in receiving. Â Lights are kept on at night just like in jail, you learn how to polish your boots and stuff like that, and you start to learn rudimentary close order drill (COD). Â I remember some classes and shots. Â Lost our first guy due to a head wound when he woke up forgetting he was on the bottom bunk. Â Fat recruits are identified as those who will be on half rations (I don't know how they could do it... I was on full rats, but we burned so many calories every day I still felt constantly hungry for 3 months).
Now real boot camp begins. Â This is where Full Metal Jacket opens up, and was highly realistic.
You are introduced to your new DI's, one by one, by the Company Commander. Â He leaves. Â The door closes. Â The screaming begins. Â We lost our second guy the first night, the stress got to him. Â He just sat down and wouldn't get up. Â The MP's came, he was handcuffed and we never saw him again.
12 weeks of boot camp, 3 phases, 4 weeks per phase.
Phase 1 was physical conditioning. Â Constant PT. Â Running, exercises, etc, with classes in the middle to give you an hour to rest here and there. Â And even when you weren't doing PT or in a class, the DIs would find some reason to get pissed and you were still doing pushups or whatever as punishment, the most severe of which would happen in "The Pit" where the dust would rise and make it hard for you to breathe. Â We were also issued rifles at this time, taught to clean them, etc. Â Lots of COD. Â DRILL Instructors are very big on Close Order DRILL. Â Our Senior DI had spent time on the Marine Corps; Silent Drill Team, so he was extra demanding... which meant a lot of extra penalty pushups (Called "Getting Bent").
We lost a few guys during Phase 1, usually due to injury. Â I think one guy went over the fence toward the San Diego airport, which is adjacent to the MCRD. Â Never saw him again.
Phase 2 we went from the Recruit Depot in San Diego up to Camp Pendleton, where the rifle range is. Â
I remember the first day was the most creative punishment ever: mattress manual. Â It is like rifle manual, with the "Left Shoulder, ARMS. Â Right shoulder, ARMS. Â PORT... ARMS." Â Except you use the mattress off your bunk and it is really heavy and tends to hurt after a while.
Fewer officers up there, so meaner DIs and higher stress. Â 2 weeks learning how to fire our rifles, and actually qualifying with them. Â Physical punishment was actually slightly reduced at this time... if your muscles were shaking due to fatigue, you weren't going to be able to shoot very well. Â If you didn't qualify, you got "recycled" back to the next platoon. Â One guy fired the minimum score, that I recall... getting recycled, and adding more time on to boot camp, was a fate worse than death. Â We were also introduced to life in the field, and had our first "humps," which are long forced marches with a pack. Â Humps became the toughest part of my Marine Corps career, and you never stop doing them. Â The first hump in Basic was about 7 miles... lots of blisters. Â We had a 2 more, the last of which was about 12 miles, and the last mile was on the beach on loose sand. Â Blinding pain. Â I remember that as one of my 2 most painful humps.
One night during phase 2 the DIs were pissed at us for some reason, so after evening chow, which I distinctly remember being spaghetti, they had us fill both our canteens, and they ordered us to drink til they were empty and then upend them. Â Then we drank the second canteen, same thing. Â I felt my stomach expanding. Â They had us refill our canteens. Â We all drank the 3rd canteen... there were groans. Â It was when we started on the 4th canteen that the explosive regurgitation started. Â As soon as everyone was done hurling diluted spaghetti, the DIs got pissed that there was puke covering the floor of the squad bay, and we got screamed at while cleaning it up.
We lost a couple more guys in Phase 2, mainly due to cellulitis with blisters that were so deep they got infected, but also picked up a couple from earlier platoons that had been recycled. Â One guy got discharged because he didn't voluntarily disclose something in his criminal record, and that caught up to him.
Phase 3 you go back down to SanDiego, and you feel like king shit because the rest of the recruits there are brand new and now you feel "salty." Â Phase 3 is more PT, obstacle training and the big toys (which at this point were all fun as hell instead of intimidating), hand to hand (includes boxing, pugil sticks, and the karate-type stuff that focuses on doing max damage in a minimum number of moves), and shitloads of COD... all of these things which culminate in testing to make sure you know your shit and can hack it. Â Whichever platoon in your series (we had 3) that wins the Close Order Drill competition wins "Honor Platoon." Â With our Senior DI being from the Silent Drill Team, we knew we had better win, or just kill ourselves. Â So we went ahead and won. You get fitted for your Dress Blues (the rest of your dress uniforms are altered, also.... no one has the same body they came in with) and practice graduation. Â There is still stress, but you are used to it now and "It's all down hill from here." Â I got my wisdom teeth pulled right before picture day... they only take pictures when they know you'll graduate. Â This is why I look extra young in my pic... swollen cheeks from tooth extraction.
You never really stop getting bent during boot camp, but by phase 3 it isn't really scary any more. Â You're pretty strong now, and the constant screaming doesn't really phase you any more because once you are no longer afraid of pain, what's the big deal about getting screamed at? Â It was about this time period that I realized the constant screaming was to get you conditioned for the chaos of a wartime environment. Â Hey, wow, they weren't just screaming at you because they are dicks... they are screaming at you because they are preparing a bunch of Marines for war. Â Wow. Â The last time they really locked the doors (to keep the officers out) and fucked us up, they knew we were about done because we were literally laughing at most of the punishments because they seemed so damned funny. Literally laughing at the pain.
We lost at least 1 guy during phase 3, I remember, because he was still sort of a dork and fell off the 60 foot rope slide and broke both his ankles.
We graduated 54 guys, and we had 2 or 3 we didn't start with that we picked up from being recycled.
Edited by GORDON on Jul. 11 2011,10:47
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| Post Number: 18
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GORDON
90%
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 36125
Joined: Jun. 2004
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Posted on: Jul. 11 2011,11:02 |
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Oh and I forgot hiking up Mount Motherfucker, and rappel/rope training. And patrolling in formations. And hard/arm signals. And I fired my rifle, a SAW, a .50 cal, and an AT-4 anti-tank rocket in Basic. And hand grenades. And learned how to deploy mines and claymores. And how to assault an urban area. And how to deploy from landing craft and helicopters. And how to move through the woods in darkness, and not lose your night vision when someone popped a flare. And basic orienteering. And a shitload of other things that will come to me later.
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| Post Number: 19
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thibodeaux
RAG
Group: Privateers
Posts: 6494
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jul. 11 2011,11:09 |
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Did you get to drop a mortar round on Tojo and Fuckface?
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| Post Number: 20
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