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Question: What's more courageous? :: Total Votes:7
Poll choices Votes Statistics
Fighting cancer 3 [42.86%]
Coming out as transgender 1 [14.29%]
Equally courageous 0 [0.00%]
Other 3 [42.86%]
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Topic: What's more courageous?< Next Oldest | Next Newest >
 Post Number: 1
Leisher Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2015,07:24  Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
Caitlyn Jenner won the Arthur Ashe courage award at the ESPYs, and it has caused some controversy. Earlier this year there was a giant sports story about a college soccer player, a woman, fighting brain cancer, yet still playing her sport. It was a very big deal, and extremely moving. ESPN was doing huge segments on her, until she eventually lost her battle.

Then Bruce came along, declared himself Caitlyn, and wins the courage award.

I'm not saying Jenner's actions didn't involve courage, but isn't facing death tougher? Or is that actually easier because it's something you're forced into and everyone will root for you, while Jenner's announcement would cause disgust among certain parts of society and possibly affect his family?

I feel like Jenner won the award because it would draw bigger ratings and is more of a hot topic than cancer.

I'm not mad at Jenner, but what does bug me is that potentially a young girl's battle for her life was ignored in favor of more advertising dollars.
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Malcolm Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2015,07:30 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
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I'm not mad at Jenner, but what does bug me is that potentially a young girl's battle for her life was ignored in favor of more advertising dollars.


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You're saying the Oscars are also political, OH FUCK OFF.

  - Robin Williams

Courage isn't something you can quantify.  The award's subjective.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2015,09:05 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
Having cancer isn't inherently courageous.  Neither is being transgender.  Courage would be defined entirely by how someone reacts to their cancer diagnosis or transgender outing, and can range the entire spectrum from extreme cowardice to total bad ass.  As written the poll question is meaningless.

Now if you want to ask is what Ciatlyn did more courageous than the particular young woman you mention I don't know as I don't know both stories well enough to have an opinion.  Either is theoretically possible.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2015,09:24 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
I have put a few minutes of thought into this.

15 years ago when my nervous system started failing, they told me I'd never walk again, be on a respirator in the near future, and probably die soon after that.  I never remember being scared, because I still had a "can never fail" Marine mentality.  I don't think that would technically be courage... I wasn't scared, and just soldiered on.  At 29 I still had no sense of my own mortality.  Can't be brave without first being scared, and I never had a doubt in my mind I was going to survive it.  It was treated with chemo so that's my personal cancer anecdote.

Coming out as transgendered......      

I know in my own personal life I am extremely private.  No one needs to know I get turned on by farm animals and plushy toys.... it goes against the image I show to the world, and that pseudo self-image is extremely important to me.  So I can't even comprehend what it would take to go on TV and say I THINK HORSES ARE GODDAM SEXY, AND THIS IS THE NEW NORMAL SO DEAL WITH IT.  For me, it would be the bravest act I am personally capable of.  BUT.... I don't know a thing about how Bruce Jenner thinks.  For all I know this is no big deal for him because I don't care enough to research him.

SO yeah, courage is subjective, and this Arthur Ashe award was subjective, and the person chosen as the recipient says more about the deciders than it does the winner.  Personally, I don't think Bruce was the classy choice.  Give it to the dead girl, for crissakes.  It'll give a little comfort to her survivors.

Edited by GORDON on Jul. 16 2015,09:26

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Leisher Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2015,10:56 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
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this Arthur Ashe award was subjective, and the person chosen as the recipient says more about the deciders than it does the winner.


Seems like we would all agree that the award, being subjective, was given to the one that would generate the most press/ratings/buzz/money.

Producer and director Peter Berg slams Jenner and the ESPYs, and good luck to anyone who tries to fight back. Hard to come off looking good, no matter your cause, if you take on disabled veterans.
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Malcolm Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2015,11:11 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
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“If you want to call me names … go ahead. I can take it,” Jenner said, “but for the thousands of kids out there coming to terms with who they are, they shouldn’t have to take it.”

Wow.  Reminds me of Mr. Burns's TV ad when he was running for governor.

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Diogenes of Sinope:

"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."

"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."

Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:

"Better dead than smeg."
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Vince Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2015,13:57 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
In today's climate, being a multi-millionaire celeb coming out as transgendered is about as brave as coming out with the stance that rainbows are pretty.

I think I tend to agree with the notion to give it to the kid with cancer as it'd mean a lot to the family.  Don't know how much I agree that it's brave to fight a disease you have.  It's either that or check out early for a dirt nap.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2015,14:49 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
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Seems like we would all agree that the award, being subjective, was given to the one that would generate the most press/ratings/buzz/money.

This I can readily agree with.  I don't know the cancer girl's story, but it seems likely that she would have been a better choice.

QUOTE
In today's climate, being a multi-millionaire celeb coming out as transgendered is about as brave as coming out with the stance that rainbows are pretty.

This I can't agree with.  Sure there will be a lot of support and "oh so brave" from certain quarters.  But I think it's been pretty well demonstrated by Jenner that you're also going to have a lot of push back and people saying the most vicious shit they can think of about you.  Far more than you indicate, for certain.

Edited by TPRJones on Jul. 16 2015,14:49

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Malcolm Search for posts by this member.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 16 2015,14:58 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
If you want to give that statue away for real courage, you'd need to find someone out playing soccer in the middle of a Syrian war zone or something else which could genuinely cost someone their life or livelihood.  You need the threat of real loss and the willful choice to go that path in spite of the risks.  I don't see having cancer or switching genders (in this case) as qualifying.  Maybe if she were an athlete from some obscenely oppressive country under sharia law and doing the same thing, that'd generate a quite palpable danger.

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Diogenes of Sinope:

"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."

"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."

Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:

"Better dead than smeg."
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2015,17:04 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

(TPRJones @ Jul. 16 2015,16:49)
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This I can't agree with.  Sure there will be a lot of support and "oh so brave" from certain quarters.  But I think it's been pretty well demonstrated by Jenner that you're also going to have a lot of push back and people saying the most vicious shit they can think of about you.  Far more than you indicate, for certain.

You really think Jenner is exposed to any kind of push back personally?  If you're talking transgenders in general, then yeah.  But Bruce isn't getting strange looks and rude comments from the rednecks in the local Walmart the way the gender bending black guy is in Nesbit MS.  Bruce is going to have near the same level of sycophant surrounding him that Michael Jackson did.  He's not going to face much diversity compared to others within the subgroup.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2015,17:20 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

(Vince @ Jul. 19 2015,20:04)
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(TPRJones @ Jul. 16 2015,16:49)
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This I can't agree with.  Sure there will be a lot of support and "oh so brave" from certain quarters.  But I think it's been pretty well demonstrated by Jenner that you're also going to have a lot of push back and people saying the most vicious shit they can think of about you.  Far more than you indicate, for certain.

You really think Jenner is exposed to any kind of push back personally?  If you're talking transgenders in general, then yeah.  But Bruce isn't getting strange looks and rude comments from the rednecks in the local Walmart the way the gender bending black guy is in Nesbit MS.  Bruce is going to have near the same level of sycophant surrounding him that Michael Jackson did.  He's not going to face much diversity compared to others within the subgroup.

Yeah but people in twitter!

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2015,17:34 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
If all it takes is standing up to the Facebook generation and screaming "watch me be different!", Fred Phelps would have had a closet full of these awards. Hell, they can't even 'dislike' you.

It's a bit alarming that they couldn't find one of these pianists that escaped from North Korea or something like.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2015,18:27 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

(Vince @ Jul. 19 2015,19:04)
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You really think Jenner is exposed to any kind of push back personally?

In person?  Probably not.  But you seem to put a lot of weight in what people say online, and there's been a lot of shit flung at her there.

You can't claim a twitter mob saying mean things about Chick-Fil-A has import and then turn around and say they don't when they are slinging mud at Jenner.  Pick one.

Personally I'm of the "sticks and stones" school of thought and will agree that online mobs are all fury and no substance if you prefer.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 19 2015,18:39 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
I've never claimed online bullying mattered to anyone except teenagers, I've always objected to the threats of physical violence.

If it weren't for twitter campaigns I'd never know the default lefty position that I want to oppose.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 20 2015,06:04 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE

(TPRJones @ Jul. 19 2015,20:27)
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You can't claim a twitter mob saying mean things about Chick-Fil-A has import and then turn around and say they don't when they are slinging mud at Jenner.  Pick one.

Saying mean things about Chick-fil-a and calling for a nation wide boycot of Chick-fil-a are two different things.  And Chick-fil-a were big boys and didn't cry about it.  A lot of people just told the social justice nazis that we disagree and we will support Chik-fil-a.
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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 20 2015,06:48 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
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Saying mean things about Chick-fil-a and calling for a nation wide boycot of Chick-fil-a are two different things.

Not really.  They are both just words.

Now if people actually follow through in enormous numbers then it can make a difference, but that's a whole other story.  Chick-Fil-A didn't suffer from any debilitating nationwide boycotts.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 20 2015,06:56 Skip to the previous post in this topic. Skip to the next post in this topic. Ignore posts   QUOTE
I have an opinion about a lot of things, and may mention it in some public forum, but taking action, rallying a mob, to actually damage those peoples' livelihoods are, in my opinion, 2 different things.

Commas.

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PostIcon Posted on: Jul. 20 2015,07:02 Skip to the previous post in this topic.  Ignore posts   QUOTE
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...but taking action, rallying a mob, to actually damage those peoples' livelihoods...

But the point is most of those people they are rallying are then going to...
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...have an opinion about a lot of things, and may mention it in some public forum...

Rarely anymore does that loop lead to actual action on any important scale.

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