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GORDON 
90%
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 36125
Joined: Jun. 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 18 2015,13:42 |
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That is a point, and I was going to say that free housing, air conditioning, phone, food, and XBox goes a long way to keeping people docile. The only reason to riot is.... I don't know. Abusive authority, i guess.
I guess if you had a long term goal of building a totalitarian police state, making sure your populace was content with very little would be the place to start.
But that's just addressing your "more than 5% of people have their shit together, behaviorally" comment. I'd say that 50% of people are able to keep their shit together enough to function, 5% to excel (to one extent or another, success does not always equal rich), and the other 45% are in jail or are forever on welfare.
I cant remember what point I was making.
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I don't give a fuck!
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TPRJones
I saw The Fault in our Stars opening night.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 12384
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 18 2015,15:44 |
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QUOTE I've observed brothers with different fathers, one white, one black, raised by the same people, neither one favored over the other, and one turn out civilized, and one drawn to a life of crime, and I'll let you choose which was which.
I would want to know a lot more about the environment. I mean if it's a white neighborhood and white schools and there's this one half-black kid then it may not matter if the family is fair to the brothers if everyone else around them is not. Nurture isn't just Mom and Dad, it's the entire environmental situation and everyone the child comes into contact with and what they do to the kid. Most formative events are oddly specific to the individual and they tend to come as crystallized moments in memory that are hard to predict or explain but can have a profound impact.
Genes are not that complex. Genes are not a blueprint and they don't lay out a structure on which you construct a person. Genes are a recipe, where you throw a bunch of proteins in a uterus and if the environmental factors of the womb are right then you get a little cake baby after nine months. There is such a thing as defective genes that can mess up the process, sure, but on the whole it is the environment (taken to mean everything but genes, really) that determines the end result for everything more complex than hair color and ear lobe attachment.
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Vidi Perfutui Veni
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Malcolm
I disagree.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 27168
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 18 2015,16:53 |
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(Vince @ Jun. 18 2015,15:13)
QUOTE
(Malcolm @ Jun. 18 2015,14:50)
QUOTE If 95% of the population couldn't rise above their base instincts for a significant portion of time, no military or police force in this world would save you. You're assuming that 95% of the people have the base instinct of a wolf. Â I'd say a good 80% of the population have the base instincts of a sheep. Â That is what makes the police and sheep capable of working.
Wolves? Â We took care of those uppity bastards. Â That only took a few tens of thousands of years.
QUOTE I've observed brothers with different fathers, one white, one black, raised by the same people, neither one favored over the other, and one turn out civilized, and one drawn to a life of crime, and I'll let you choose which was which.
I've observed a woman whose every immediate family relation could most charitably described as "trailer trash that couldn't even get on Springer." Â She's neurotic as hell, paranoid to an apologetic degree, and far too concerned with what other people think. Â Her siblings turned out ten different kinds of fucked up, which is WORLDS better than her mother, who is a million different kinds of fucked up. Â Fuck race and every other factor. Â She was raised in the same environment, same genetics, same a lot of shit, and she turned out fine. Â Maybe a bit on the Flanders side of the curve, but a functional member of society. Â Unlike every other blood relative of hers I've ever met and their significant others/wives/husbands. Â Even similar genetics and environment occasionally produce drastically asymmetric results. Â Some synapses in her brain got built. Â Theirs didn't.
I'll go with what I've observed throughout the years:
You can teach almost anyone to do almost anything competently. Â Some crazy motherfucker once taught calculus to grade schoolers successfully. Â He did it to prove his teaching method worked. Â I've run a number of IT interviews. Â There's a huge chasm between people who can code concepts they've seen before and those who can code up abstract concepts they've not seen before.
I think the difference is what it takes for you to drag yourself through something rather than someone else dragging you through it. Â Wherever the critical point is for each individual, it creates a stark contrast.
Edited by Malcolm on Jun. 18 2015,20:24
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Diogenes of Sinope:
"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:
"Better dead than smeg."
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Leisher
Top 3%, yo.
Group: Super Administrators
Posts: 26651
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 18 2015,19:56 |
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I have a lot to add here, and I want to continue discussing some of the stuff from the other thread, but I'm too tired to give a fuck at the moment.
I will say that while I think the nurture side has a tremendous effect on a person, I also know nature is filled with examples of animals knowing shit or behaving in ways they shouldn't unless some knowledge/behavior was passed down through DNA.
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TPRJones
I saw The Fault in our Stars opening night.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 12384
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 18 2015,20:25 |
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Animals don't have self-awareness and don't absorb experiences in quite the way humans do. I don't think you can draw very much from the animal world for a comparison like this.
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Vidi Perfutui Veni
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Malcolm
I disagree.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 27168
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 18 2015,20:26 |
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QUOTE I also know nature is filled with examples of animals knowing shit or behaving in ways they shouldn't unless some knowledge/behavior was passed down through DNA.
Some instincts are. Â Like the ability of reptiles to crack through their eggs and emerge into the wild. Â On the flip side, there's documented evidence of monkeys, dolphins, and other critters demonstrating learned behaviour from someone in their pride/pod/tribe/wtf-ever.
QUOTE Animals don't have self-awareness and don't absorb experiences in quite the way humans do.
I'll give you the latter. Â The former ... they might be experiencing shit in some very cognizant ways, but they can't express it to us. Â Some of them are disturbingly intelligent and they're either masters of the Clever Hans effect or they have more brains than people give them credit for. Â Don't get me wrong, most critters are almost mindless. Â A few are standouts, though. Not that they have morality, but they can problem solve.
Edited by Malcolm on Jun. 18 2015,20:32
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Diogenes of Sinope:
"It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours."
"Other dogs bite only their enemies, whereas I bite also my friends in order to save them."
Arnold Judas Rimmer, BSC, SSC:
"Better dead than smeg."
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TPRJones
I saw The Fault in our Stars opening night.
Group: Privateers
Posts: 12384
Joined: May 2004
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Posted on: Jun. 19 2015,03:39 |
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Sure, I agree. And you can shape the personality of some animals in crude ways through repeated traumas. Mistreat a dog enough and you'll likely get a skittish and easily frightened dog, even if it didn't start out that way. But it's much cruder than the more subtle ways you can shape a growing human child.
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Vidi Perfutui Veni
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